Wells Fargo Bank Sues Itself 445
Extreme economic problems require extreme solutions, and Wells Fargo Bank has come up with a good one. They have decided to sue themselves. Wells Fargo holds the first and second mortgages on a condominium that is going into foreclosure. As holder of the first, they are suing all other lien holders, including the holder of the second, which is Wells Fargo. It gets better. The company has hired a lawyer to defend itself against its own lawsuit. The defense lawyer even filed this answer to the complaint, "Defendant admits that it is the owner and holder of a mortgage encumbering the subject real property. All other allegations of the complaint are denied." On the website The Consumer Warning Network, Angie Moreschi wrote: "We've apparently reached the perfect storm for complete and utter idiocy by some banks trying to foreclose on homes."
You can Do that? (Score:5, Funny)
I'll See Me In court!!!
Not if I see me first! (Score:5, Funny)
Just for this story we should be able to mod ourselves :)
Re:Not if I see me first! (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, but you'd immediately have to metamoderate your moderation down, so it works out in the end.
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+5 redundant? Are you an IT professional? :)
He works at Google.
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When a bailed out bank sues itself, we lose.
Re:You can Do that? (Score:5, Interesting)
Wells Fargo has made so much money charging their customers fees (I think there might be a fee for fee processing) that they not only didn't need to take bailout money, they can afford to build a nice shiny corporate office with heated sidewalks. HEATED SIDEWALKS.
When I found out that my bank was being bought by Wells Feego I changed banks. When I went in to close the account, they asked why. When I told the teller it was because of the impending transfer she told me she was planning on quitting on the day of the changeover.
A good friend of mine worked in their credit card department for a very short while, he had to quit because he wasn't getting any sleep.
I hope W.F. sues itself into oblivion. This is one time I'll actually cheer for them to win a lawsuit. Let's go for quadruple damages while we're at it and see to it that the lawyers get an 80% fee on the proceeds.
Re:You can Do that? (Score:5, Informative)
they can afford to build a nice shiny corporate office with heated sidewalks.
Where's the office? If it's in the northeast or northern mid-west, heated sidewalks are a great idea, since they'd be much more reliable, be safer, and require less human work than having the grounds staff out there with salt, sand, and ice chippers (whether or not they're better environmentally than salt and sand would depend primarily on where the building gets its electricity from). My parents' house has a heater under the front stairs and porch to keep it free of ice in the winter, and I wish the university I went to could move around some of the underground steam pipes to help clear more of the sidewalks; it was funny seeing patches of bare sidewalk in the middle of the winter where the pipes went under them.
As for suing themselves and even hiring a lawyer to defend the lawsuit, well holy shit, that's hilarious.
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Well, their corporate offices are in San Francisco. That said, a quick look at google gives us various applications for Wells Fargo to have heated sidewalks in their Des Moines, Iowa office, where they have an average of 32 inches of snowfall during the winter.
I'm sure electrically heated sidewalks are cheaper than paying some guy to shovel the snow.
Re:You can Do that? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Heated sidewalks are not that outrageous in the midwest. Its cheaper to heat them and keep them ice free vs the possible liability of someone slipping and falling. Lots of older sidewalks in downtown st paul are heated. They put the steam pipes close enough to the surface that the steam basically heats em.
Re:You can Do that? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:You can Do that? (Score:4, Interesting)
While I'm not necessarily a fan of Wells Fargo, I gotta admit I'm finding this curious:
Wells Fargo has made so much money charging their customers fees (I think there might be a fee for fee processing) that they not only didn't need to take bailout money, they can afford to build a nice shiny corporate office with heated sidewalks.
Okay, let me get this straight. Because Wells Fargo made so much money--and doesn't appear to have lost too much money during the mortgage crisis or at least hasn't lost more money than they made--they didn't need to get bail-out money, saving taxpayers money. Perhaps this is in contrast with other banks that didn't charge fees and made poor choices during the mortgage crisis and needed bail-out money from the taxpayers.
Wells Fargo made lots of money by charging their customers for service, which is sort of the idea of a company which provides a service. You may argue the amounts, and I might agree with you. But they charged the amounts they charged and let the market decide whether they were worth it. You decided they weren't worth it and took your business elsewhere, which is your choice.
Tell me, did the bank you switched to need to take taxpayer money? Have they been absorbed by some other bank?
Re:You can Do that? (Score:5, Funny)
Recently, I called Wells Fargo and told them to "Go f*** yourselves"; I didn't anticipate they would take me so literally.
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Obviously, his next call with that particular message ought to be to Dick Cheney.
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great idea asshole.
The last thing we need is Dick Cheney firing bunker busting nuclear weapons at his undisclosed location in suburban Washington... ...on second thought... just give us non bureaucrats a warning first, will ya?
Latest news (Score:5, Funny)
Sales of mattress have started picking up again.
seriously?! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Not only act of idiocy (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:5, Informative)
Congrats on the purchase, btw! :)
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:5, Funny)
I hope the judge fines the plaintiff and the defendant for wasting his time.
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So we can bail out Wells Fargo for unforeseen expenses they incurred?
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sure.
We can use the unforeseen revenues we accrued in the legal system.
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Because the people doing real work, who knew what they were doing, were to important to be promoted into doing other things.
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:4, Insightful)
Too big to not fail?
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Probably because in the past you've promptly notified your lender that you have insurance.
I got a similar note from my lender (a local credit union) on my car loan 4ish years ago. They're just covering their bases and making sure you have the insurance mandated in the loan agreement - if you don't they charge you out the ass for theirs.
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I have an auto loan through the company and they just sent me a letter telling me that I better make sure I have them listed on my insurance as something or other or they would purchase their own insurance and add it to the loan amount.
It's somewhere in the fine print of your loan agreement: as the secured creditor, the bank wants to be sure they are the first beneficiary of any payment from your insurance company if the vehicle is totaled.
I'm not sure why it's the first time you've seen it: it's always been a requirement for vehicles that I financed.
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I'm not sure why it's the first time you've seen it: it's always been a requirement for vehicles that I financed.
No, that's probably not the reason at all. I had a similar situation with countrywide mortgage (since bankrupt and bought out, could not have happened to a better bunch of crooks).
The deal is, if they throw out paperwork, they make more money charging fees for arranging their own insurance.
As long as they make legal action too expensive (binding arbitration by the King Of Timbuktu, etc), its cheaper for the screwed customer to remain screwed.
Somehow I dodged the bullet after mailing and faxing the info mul
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:4, Informative)
Well, the REALLY smart thing to do is live with a cheap old car as long as you possibly can while making payments into your own savings account towards a new car. Then buy the new car with cash and forget the bank financing entirely. Once the purchase is done, continue making payment towards the next new car. By deferring the first new car a couple years to begin with, you can put yourself in a positive cycle that will yield thousands in savings for years to come.
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And don't panic when that old car needs repairs.
On average you'll need to cough up for a major repair about every three years -- but it's still cheaper than making monthly payments.
Realworld example: average major repair on my paid-for truck: $700, once every 3-4 years. Average monthly payment on a newer truck: $400 per month, every month. Gee, which one is more economical??
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While it sounds intimidating, the Better Business Bureau is not a government agency and is therefore powerless to make a company do the right thing. (If you want to play that angle, just hope the guy you're talking to doesn't know that) If you really want to put the fear of God
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:5, Insightful)
this and the example listed here are a perfect example of how a bank can get so large that they can't even deal with themselves.
It's not the size, it's the stupidity.
Everything I know about management I learned from the "telephone game" we played as kids, where you whisper a message around in a circle and find that after about three hops it gets completely mangled.
Stupid people ignore this phenomenon, and go through their lives acting as if telling someone something once is sufficient to get the message across. Stupid people run stupid organizations that radically under-communicate. Some people who are both stupid and evil use this to create private fiefdoms within organizations.
Smart people recognize this phenomena, and create organizations with multiple, redundant and simple lines of communication, and work to keep policies clear and concise so they are harder to mangle in the communications process.
Organizations run by stupid people are therefore extremely complex and hard to understand, whereas those run by smart people are generally simple. This leads stupid people--who are vastly in the majority--to think that organizations run by smart people aren't very capable, because they are too stupid to realize that capability comes with simplicity, not complexity.
Corporate America is hugely invested in the myth of complexity, and hires and trains managers accordingly. Attempts to simplify are fought at every turn. This creates the kind of environment where an organization can actively pursue and defend a lawsuit against itself, by itself, rather than carrying through the pro-forma motions required by law, because the people on both sides are too stupid to consider any other possibility.
And remember: this comes down to a couple of people. They are embedded within a large organization, but it is at the end of the day just them. It isn't like there are huge teams on this. An organization with clear lines of communication and responsibility would make it easy for the people in question to talk to each other, and the issue would be resolved. But that would be smart, and there is nothing smart about the people working for American banks these days.
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Introducing complexity into the areas around one's job is an excellent way to prevent yourself from being moved from that job. If you're someone who's still heading up the corporate ladder, that's a foolish thing to do (because that effect prevents you from being promoted), but once you reach the point where the Peter Principle starts being a factor, this becomes known as "job security". It's one of those instances where what's good for an employee is bad for a company, and it's pretty close to impossible t
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:5, Funny)
It's only confusing if you assume that corporations are one monolithic entity.
In fact, they're the exact opposite of a monolithic entity.
The monolith made our monkey ancestors more intelligent. Corporations are making us more stupidity again =(
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Corporations are making us more stupidity again =(
There's something oddly beautiful about that statement. But it hurts my brain as I try to figure out exactly what.
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:4, Insightful)
In fact, they're the exact opposite of a monolithic entity.
The monolith made our monkey ancestors more intelligent. Corporations are making us more stupidity again =(
You might be confusing RL with Stargate a little bit.
You might be confusing Stargate with 2001: A Space Odyssey a little bit
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even if you understand that, the fact that this nonsense ends up in court means there's no one in a management position prepared to actually make decisions.
Ok, different divisions have different objectives, but it's the job of the CEO to manage the company as a whole. This should all be resolved in conference room 101 internally
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Clearly you don't understand banking. Wells Fargo didn't waste any of their smart bankers on operations or procedures - how silly would that be? They directed their brainpower towards bribing the government for handouts! Has they been smart and efficient, they just would have gotten smaller handouts. Working hard to make your business a success is the sort of thing a free market rewards, not the sort of thing a corrupt government rewards. Who are you to criticise - how many billions of taxpayer dollars
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:5, Informative)
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yes.
The court shouldn't waste it's time with internal disputes. Anytime a company sues itself the courts should automatically find for the defendant. As soon as that's the policy you won't see any of this nonsense anymore. After all, the courts have more important things to do, like wage the war on (some) drugs.
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:5, Insightful)
I also do not understand how you were able to repay the 3 month's worth of mortgage owed, but were unable to come up with the interest on the delinquent charges. How is it that in 2 years and 3 months, you couldn't come up with the interest on the 3 month's payments?
Then, to top it off, you claim that your home was foreclosed on, you were refunded 1 year's worth of payments, and that the house was put on the market for 1 year's worth of house payments. I'm going to have to call B.S. on this one. I realize that we're in a "down market" as they call it, but trying to tell me that your home went back on the market for 1/30 of its original price is a little much.
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:4, Interesting)
I completely agree! The whole thing never made sense to me either
"How is it that in 2 years and 3 months, you couldn't come up with the interest on the 3 month's payments?"
I don't recall explaining how Wells Fargo calculated interest, so how would you know if it made sense or not?
" you were refunded 1 year's worth of payments, and that the house was put on the market for 1 year's worth of house payments. I'm going to have to call B.S. on this one."
Like I said, I don't understand it either.
"home went back on the market for 1/30 of its original price is a little much."
wait... what? Do you think they take the value of your house, divide it by 30 years, and that's what they charge you per year? Wow that'd be great, wouldn't it? So a $300,000 house divided by 30 would be 10 grand a year, or a $833/mo payment. Everyone would own million dollar houses.
Re:Not only act of idiocy (Score:4, Interesting)
I have another horror story about Wells Fargo. I serve as treasurer for a non-profit organization which leased a high-speed multifunction copier/printer/scanner/fax machine in 2001 to print our newsletter. The lease was for five years and administered through Wells Fargo Financial Leasing. At the end of the five years, after paying thousands of dollars in lease payments at $300/month, they told us that to close the lease, we could either purchase the machine outright for $360, or pay $500 to have it shipped to a recycling/salvage facility in Texarkana, Arkansas. The non-profit, of course, decided to pay the $360 and contract with a local printer company to service the machine, which still worked well, even though it was no longer under warranty.
Everything seemed fine until Wells Fargo started sending us bills about six months later. Since the lease had ended and the non-profit owned the machine, I ignored the bills and just threw them away. Then I got a call from Wells Fargo demanding another paymnet of $249, saying the account was never closed and the $249 represented accrued interest. I faxed Wells Fargo all the paperwork and copies of the cancelled checks to prove that the lease had ended and that we owned the machine outright. I even used the very same multifunction machine in question to fax the paperwork back to them.
Wells Fargo insisted that the money was still owed, and continued to send invoices and made threatening phone calls. They finally turned it over to a collection agency, which made more threatening phone calls. Not wishing to harm our credit standing, I asked the board of the non-profit for authorization to pay the bogus bill and they agreed just so we could close the matter.
Then, six months later, we received a refund check from Wells Fargo for $95. Wells Fargo apparently figured out they over-charged us for some reason, but there was no explanation for the refund check nor any detailed accounting of what was being refunded or why. It was just an envelope with a check enclosed.
The board of the non-profit has now passed a resolution that we will never do any business with Wells Fargo ever again, nor will we maintain a bank account with Bank of America or any other bank that accepted TARP funds. My current task as treasurer is to move all our money out of BofA (which has been our bank since the organization was founded in 1974) and into a different bank that has not taken any taxpayer bailout money. Believe it or not, there still are a few around (e.g., Union Bank, USBank, Mechanics Bank and Pacific National Bank are four that we are considering).
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I have a horror story about Bank of America; never get near that bank without a flamethrower or a bazooka. Pa lend out some of his IRA money to various companies. The loans were in his IRA portfolio and kept at Fleet Bank. Fleet got bought by BofA and then the fun started. There was one remaining loan by that time since I had cleaned up the rest. The loan was to a microbrewery and they religiously pay their monthlies on time every month. BofA decided they had a problem with a loan in an IRA and wanted it a
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Not geeking out, Obsessive-compulsive Disorder. [wikipedia.org]
crazy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Suing yourself is collusive litigation. (Score:5, Insightful)
Suing yourself is collusive litigation. We pay taxes to support the legal system and it is outrageous for a corporation to abuse the already overburdened judicial system resolving disputes that are not really disputes.
There must be more to this story, though. Maybe it's Wells Fargo Holding Co., Inc. versus Wells Fargo Partners, Inc. That would make sense.
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Re:Suing yourself is collusive litigation. (Score:5, Informative)
From the article: ...court documents clearly label "Wells Fargo Bank NA" as the plaintiff and "Wells Fargo Bank NA" as a defendant.
Aren't they supposed to spontaneously self-destruct when this happens?
Re:Suing yourself is collusive litigation. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suing yourself is collusive litigation. (Score:5, Funny)
The judge is probably a Monty Python fan, and he's going to let the whole trial go through.
Then, at the end, he's going to say:
"I'm ruling against Wells Fargo, and in favour of Wells Fargo."
Then, promptly get up from the bench, and return to his chamber, all the while laughing at the sound of lawyer's heads exploding in the courtroom.
Re:Suing yourself is collusive litigation. (Score:5, Funny)
"To make this easier, the Court has decided to give code names to the two sides in the litigation. Let the record show that the Plaintiff, Wells Fargo Bank NA, will henceforth be known as Fucktard, and the Defendant, Wells Fargo NA, will be known as Asshat. The counselors are instructed to refer to their clients by the names given by the Court in order to clarify the record. Failure to do so will result in a contempt citation.
Please proceed with your opening arguments, Fucktard."
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Aren't they supposed to spontaneously self-destruct when this happens?
You are talking about the legal system and this is known to stand outside the normal laws of physics. ;)
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It's a wash. (Score:5, Funny)
Wells Fargo better make sure the loser reimburses the winner's legal expenses!
Since the lawsuit was filed in Florida ... (Score:4, Funny)
...
...
Oh, right.
Re:Since the lawsuit was filed in Florida ... (Score:5, Funny)
Why not hire him for both sides and let him have the experience of actually winning a case?
Re:Since the lawsuit was filed in Florida ... (Score:5, Funny)
He'd be the only one who could pull off making the case even more strange by causing both sides to lose.
Too many lawyers (Score:2, Insightful)
I must come to the inescapable concludsion that there are too many lawyers in the U.S.
Coke did this (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Coke did this (Score:5, Insightful)
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No it wasn't, I didn't understand it at all.
Then again, I wouldn't have seen the explanation if it wasn't for your comment saying how redundant it was.
So thank you.
Why Hire Another Lawyer? (Score:4, Funny)
Feedback loops... (Score:2, Funny)
Did anyone really think the banking industry was immune to one of prime forces of human nature?
There just doesn't seem to be an end to the stupidity that plagues the money farm....
To quote a simpler solution, "Jump You Fuckers!"
Schrodinger's Bank (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Schrodinger's Bank (Score:4, Insightful)
Florida requires it?! (Score:5, Insightful)
I RTFA, and it appears that Florida requires that you sue all lien holders. Since they have 80/20 double mortgage, they have to sue themselves.
Re:Florida requires it?! (Score:5, Informative)
Thanks for RTFA. I find that most of the time stories about "How incredibly stupid is this?" are often leaving out some crucial fact.
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Regardless of facts being left out, the company is still suing itself, which is demonstrably stupid.
Re:Florida requires it?! (Score:4, Insightful)
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I could see Wells Fargo being forced into complying with the State of Florida's legal requirement. I'm sure this explanation appeals to some people who want to believe that it's always governments and not corporations that act stupid and crazy. But why have your defense deny the other allegations? Why not file a motion, have the other department agree with all points and settle out of court, so the company as a whole can get on with what it needs to do. Whatever law Wells Fargo blames this on, there certain
Re:Florida requires it?! (Score:4, Informative)
And required by Florida law. If they did not, the foreclosure would be vacated.
As usual, it all comes back to Florida.
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Regardless of facts being left out, the company is still suing itself, which is demonstrably stupid.
No no no. The demonstrably stupid part is not suing itself, but the same org taking both sides of the 80/20.
The whole point of an 80/20 is the bank paying for the 80 thinks the victim is too much of a credit risk for a 95/5 or a 100/0 or whatever, but maybe they can get a 20 somewhere else, from some loan shark or something.
Basically some fool paid all the fees for two mortgages at the same place, an 80 and a 20, when they should have just paid one fee for a 100/0. Its really more of a fraud case than any
And the winner is... (Score:4, Insightful)
It actually makes a perverse kind of sense though. Banks can effectively lend money to themselves, so they should be able to sue themselves too!
Eh (Score:5, Informative)
Wells Fargo (holder of the senior mortgage) is trying to clear out all the subsidiary mortgage interests so that it can sell the property. In the process of doing so, it has to sue itself for record-keeping purposes - if I'm going to buy some property, I want a clear case record showing that all existing claims have been discharged. What will likely happen, however, is that junior Wells Fargo will settle with senior Wells Fargo, after doing some filings to show that it's done it's due dilligence in trying to protect it's fiduciary interest in the property.
Re:Eh (Score:4, Informative)
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It's not Wells Fargo we ought to be upset at, it's the legal system that's so borked it requires a company to sue itself. Can we burn the law books yet and just govern ourselves by common sense?
Not a system problem at all.
How can all these "computer people" not know the phrase "garbage in, garbage out".
One bank on both sides of a 80/20 is garbage.
Garbage in, garbage out, therefore the cleanup is inherently going to be crazy.
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Re:Eh (Score:5, Interesting)
They could, except that then other lienholders could scream "Preferential treatment!" and delay things or force Wells Fargo to give them preferential treatment too. Remember that if WF succeeds in this action, all those other subsidiary lienholders will end up holding worthless paper, and WF doesn't want to give them anything they can use against WF. If WF treats itself exactly the way it treats the others and follows exactly the same procedures, that takes away one thing those other lienholders can use to try and derail the proceeding.
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As is becoming more common with foreclosure cases these days, a homeowner can fight the action if they can have the bank prove that they hold the note and all the paperwork on the property. In many, many cases, the bank may well have bundled the mortgage into a security with dozens or even hundreds of other mortgages and sold it to another entity. That entity may well have sold it in a different bundled security to another bank and so on and on and on. I do recall reading about a case in, yes, Florida, w
Stupidity countdown (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's count it down:
5) Wells Fargo
For getting itself in the position of having to sue itself
4) Florida State government
For writing a law that requires a bank to sue itself.
3) Al Lewis/Fox News
For writing/publishing this worthless article.
2) samzenpus
For posting this on slashdot.
1) Me
For commenting on this crap.
But if it makes you feel better, go ahead and pile scorn on the banks.
It'll take your mind off the fact that you're the real sucker.
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How is this a worthless article if it points out the stupidity of certain laws?
Get in line (Score:4, Insightful)
Seems like a clear case of "heads, we win, tails, you lose". This lawsuit ensures that one part of wells fargo gets the proceeds of any auction or resale, and what's left over after satisfying the original note (yeah right)/ will still go to the other part of wells fargo. Maybe the 80% note is subordinate to the 20% note?
Crazy like a fox (Score:5, Interesting)
From another article on the same subject http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php?action=printpage;topic=48933.0 [doomers.us]
(McKillop represents the real defendant, the homeowner).
Seems like this is just a procedural trick to get the second lien dismissed during the original foreclosure case. Apparently Wells Fargo thinks it's worth paying an extra lawyer rather than having to wait for the voluntary release of the lien to go through. Pretty silly, but it is _Florida_ law at issue, after all...
Advice from the past (Score:3, Interesting)
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". - (Henry VI Act IV, Scene II - Shakespeare, ca. 1623). Good idea then, good idea now.
The Hack is comming from your own Machine!!!! (Score:3, Funny)
From port 127.0.0.1 !!!
OMG, Ponies!
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no, that was actually funny and made a political statement.
This is just sad.
Noooo!! Tag article as LOOPBACK (Score:4, Funny)
This is just sad.
No, no, NO! You don't understand. This is a case of corporate autoimmune disease (think rheumatoid arthritis)...or management has unlocked the mysteries of 127.0.0.1 .
Yep, that's gotta be it. Loopback.