Tiger4 writes
"The mayor of the City of Lancaster in the Antelope Valley of southern California is considering a high-definition video flying platform to aid in crime fighting. The aircraft, would circle the city constantly, able to zoom in on activity spots instantly. 'You never know when you are being watched or followed. It would be stupid to commit a crime. You see it with such detail,' said Mayor R. Rex Parris, who took a ride last week in a camera-equipped airplane with pilot Dick Rutan. 'I have every hope that Lancaster will be the first city to deploy it. I've never been so excited about anything.' Dick Rutan is the same pilot who flew around the world non-stop in the Voyager, custom built by his brother Burt Rutan at Scaled Composites in Mojave." The aircraft is nothing special, a garden-variety Cessna or the like, but "the camera is an example of technology developed for and used by the military making a transition to civilian applications, Rutan said."
Next step (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Next step (Score:5, Interesting)
Btw, could someone tag the story "bluethunder"? I can't seem to add tags.
Parent
Re:Next step (Score:5, Insightful)
The camera is an example of technology developed for and used by the military making a transition to civilian applications
I disagree however. Once government's start using military surveillance techniques on it's citizenry they are no longer a civilian government's but precursors to a police state. And the guys excited about it . . . I'm not sure whether thats scary or disgusting!
Parent
Re:Next step (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, sure, I'm guessing we'll all be embracing the next logical step in govt. surveillance!! The all seeing HD eye in the sky.
Wait, did I forget my [sarcasm] tag??
Sadly, there will be a decent number of people that will go for this. More and more these days a saying I heard awhile back is even more pertinent:
What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces.
Parent
Re:Next step (Score:4, Insightful)
Not to sound like I like this sort of thing, but we didn't have privacy in the past. We are just returning to a more village type of mindset.
Yes, except that in a village, everyone had the scoop on you, but you had the scoop on them, as well. Consequently, everyone agreed to ignore each others little indiscretions. With where we are headed now, the government has the scoop on us, and we have...nothing on the government. That imbalance of power makes this a very dangerous situation.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
With a strong helping of facism throne in.
I thought for a moment you should have wrote "thrown" but I decided "throne" is more fitting.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If something takes place in public, I don't think there's any violation of here. If they put a camera in the sky that can "see" through walls, or bounce lasers off our home windows to "hear" what's going on inside WITHOUT a warrant and trust me, I'll grab the pitchfork, you grab the torch.
Yeah, I'm sure they'll close their eyes if they see something in your privacy fenced-in backyard.
Re:Next step (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Calling Parris shady is like calling Hitler mean.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If this "sentimate" (sic) isn't in line with "tin-foil hat over-reactions," I don't know what is.
I call Bovine Scatalogy.
As is, privately owned security cameras aren't worth the effort for the government to monitor on a large scale. NSA/ATT aside, law enforcement generally needs a subpoena or warrant to require you to release your private security camera's recordings. With this new technology, surveillance is possible 24x7 without the necessity of obtaining those pesky warrants and subpoenas. As if that's not enough (and I think that it is), while we have had "sky cams" the new camera
Re:Next step (Score:5, Insightful)
The new fashion accessory that every criminal thug just has to have: an umbrella.
Parent
In a world where umbrellas are outlawed... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:In a world where umbrellas are outlawed... (Score:4, Insightful)
only outlaws will have umbrellas.
Relinquish your right to carry an umbrella. After all, if you carry an umbrella, you must have something to hide.
Parent
Re:Next step (Score:4, Interesting)
Curiously enough, here in the UK, the fashion trend for 'hoodies' among teenagers took off pretty much in parallel with the explosion of CCTV monitoring in the cities.
Parent
Re:Next step (Score:5, Insightful)
Our mayor (yes, I live in the AV) would indeed outlaw roofs if he could. This is the same guy who said that he would seize and kill law-abiding citizens' pets if doing so would discourage gang members from owning dogs.
Think I'm making this up??
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/26/local/me-dogordinance26?pg=1 [latimes.com]
======
"What happens when these gang members that you're trying to target move on to Dobermans or German shepherds? You going to restrict them too?" Listman asked the council.
"If they move on to cats," Parris responded, "I'm going to take their cats."
======
He's an ambulance chaser by profession, which means in his worldview, there is only one solution for every social ill: SOMEONE MUST PAY!!
The man is a menace to the Constitution.
Parent
Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, though, the whole idea is wrong on so many levels it's not funny anymore. Privacy aside, couldn't they at least use a platform that's better suited to long-term surveillance, such as a small (drone-sized), unmanned airship?
Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? (Score:5, Insightful)
For the system to work, it doesn't actually have to record every crime. It only has to deter people from committing crimes out of fear that they MAY be recorded.
That said, I think that constant surveillance will be the end of our republic.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
>> If its going to be in the Air all the time, and just circle. Why don't the replace it with a few balloons or Zeppelins as fixed air platform.
OK, I'll bite: Because the mounting harness of the camera system sold by the contractor buddy of the Mayor, is custom made to install on airplanes sold by the golf partner of the contractor. The owner of the balloon/airship company was not aware of the project, and so couldn't offer to chip in for the Mayor's summer vacation trip.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
$5.25 * 7 = $36.75/hr.
$36.75 * 24 = $882/day.
$882 * 365 = $321,930/year.
As such...
Cessna Surveillance Plan: $125,000
1 year of fuel: $321,930
Killing both privacy, the economy, and the budget is one fell swoop: Priceless.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
There were some issues, in the past, with aerial photos of people in their backyard which had walls (and obviously no ceilings). I don't recall what the ruling was but I think it was ruled that if there is no roof there is no expectation of
Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? (Score:5, Interesting)
Privacy outside of a building is not constitutionally mandated. Walking on the street? Anyone can take pictures of you - media, gov't, private citizens and you have zero privacy claims. There is no expectation of privacy when you leave the protection of a building.
But as soon as an individual points a camera at this aircraft, you can bet that police will be telling them they're not allowed to do it, that they must delete the photos, or arresting them on some terrorism charge (at least, that's what would happen in the UK).
It's as if objects, buildings and so on have more of an expectation of privacy than individuals do...
Parent
Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? (Score:4, Insightful)
But as soon as an individual points a camera at this aircraft, you can bet that police will be telling them they're not allowed to do it, that they must delete the photos, or arresting them on some terrorism charge (at least, that's what would happen in the UK). It's as if objects, buildings and so on have more of an expectation of privacy than individuals do...
Not sure why your post would be marked insightful since it is pure speculation. There are valid concerns with top secret items and the gov't not wanting you to take pictures of them. For example if the gov't came out with a new plane that had some new, awesome and secret technology it makes sense they don't want you taking a picture of it. This technology is nothing new...it's been featured in games, tv shows, and hell is just a combination of technology that's been around for decades with some relatively new technology (HD TV).
/. could make said device...it may not be as good as what these cops will have - then again they have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on professional gear - but it will do the same thing.
Feel free to take all the pictures you want of this aircraft...once the military sells something to civies it loses it's top secret status.
BTW this technology amounts to an RC airplane + HD cam corder + a transmitter of the cam corder. I'd imagine someone here on
Parent
Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Precisely. The first prerequisite for crime prevention is that the police actually give a rodent's posterior about protecting citizens, instead of getting themselves on TV and beating the PR drums. Heck, my car radio was stolen out of the parking lot where I work. My employer turned over the video—complete with clearly visible license plate of the truck these yahoos were riding in—and nothing has happe
i for one (Score:2)
And criminals... (Score:5, Insightful)
...never do anything stupid, so the Mayor pointing out "It would be stupid to commit a crime" is a really excellent example of how compelling the case is for using this sort of surveillance technology.
If politicians and police were honest about this they'd be doing a controlled experiment on these deployments, putting out these systems in ways that varied both in space and time that allowed them to determine whether these things had any effect on quality of life amongst the citizens, which is the metric that matters.
Instead, they are content to make stuff up, and the average person is so relentlessly anti-empirical that they have no idea what they are missing.
Re:And criminals... (Score:5, Insightful)
so the Mayor pointing out "It would be stupid to commit a crime"
If this is true, then why are government officials so reluctant to have their own activities monitored? Why do law enforcement get so edgy about being filmed? Why are cameras not allowed in most court rooms? Why aren't public officials monitored all day long? It just stops crime, after all.
Parent
Re:And criminals... (Score:4, Insightful)
I get your point--especially about law enforcement, but you need to recognise than "government" isn't a monolith. Many government officials and employees don't want the crazy surveillance of other people either.
Parent
Re:And criminals... (Score:5, Interesting)
You bring up a very interesting point. What if the flying-camera-drone catches some police abuse on civilians, or some other egregious violation of human or civil rights? Do we, as civilians, have the right to request the footage of that incident at that time? After all OUR money paid for this plan, the pilot's salary, the camera, the fuel and everything else related to putting that object in the air. Does the FOIA [state.gov] cover this too?
Parent
Re:And criminals... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, you certainly have all the right in the world to request the footage of the incident, which will do you a whole lot of good if the tape has been "misplaced" or just doesn't exist because the camera had a "glitch" just when it happened. *winkwink*
Parent
bad idea + bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)
The camera is an example of technology developed for and used by the military making a transition to civilian applications, Rutan said."
When you have the Military controling civilian security, the civilians become the enemy. This would normally just be a gross overstepping of the government, but to use it as a "transition" for EASing military is just crazy. Things are different in the Military. The rules, norms and expectations are completely different. You can't just take an MP out of the fleet, give him a badge and a gun, and expect him to take a squad car around the block with out incident.
-Rick
Warning shot: a shot directly at center of mass (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
City of Lancaster? (Score:5, Funny)
Worst idea ever (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Someone to know the crime is happening and thus record it, send cops over, and prevent it.
2. No blind spots(good luck on a roaming platform. Last I checked, buildings still are 3d and thus will cause blind spots.
3. The criminals not to take the most basic of all precautions to hide there identity(sky masks aren't exactly hard to make or buy.).
So, in conclusion, it looks like some dumb ass company built this device and decided to market it to whatever sucker they could find. World keeps on turning.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
>> But hey, when someone asks you to make a robot to do X, how many engineers will step back and ask "Are you SURE X is what you want to do?"
I'll go out on a limb and say, the answer is Y engineers.
-dZ.
Agreed. (Score:5, Interesting)
And you expect a mayor to obey the same laws? (Score:3, Interesting)
because here in Atlanta when police protecting the mayor scanned the plates of a car visiting her son and found the car stolen the policeman doing got into trouble and the police were prevented from doing future scans.
Useful big brother or foggy day crime spike ? (Score:2, Insightful)
This surely is big brother watching you.
How do you know who is the "guard dog" watching ?
Who is in power is surely willing to keep it and it will use all means available.
Get ready to long shot videos or images of possibly "strange" situation being broadcastet to destroy a political opponent.
(Hey, look, your candidate was walking on a notoriously gay road !!!! he was talking to a possible drug dealer !!!!)
Of course any plausible reason for doing it will be seen as irrelevant.
Talking about the bad guy, he jus
Trying to counter irrational acts, rationally (Score:5, Insightful)
They either plan around it (unlikely) or commit impulsive acts when the opportunity arises. They also don't always commit their crimes out-doors, or in cloud-free weather. They also don't ever expect to get caught (if they did, that would be a deterrent - it isn't).. So while keeping a plane in the air (and presumably a control room staffed, to watch the spy cameras) and a mechanic on standby to refule it and maintain it, might sound like a good idea - and may even impress the voters the chances of it reducing crime are small.
Luckily for the mayor, it's impossible to correlate one act of crime prevention with any movement in the crime statistics, so whatever happens (short of someone stealing the plane), he, she or it will be able to call the initiative a success.
I do have a feeling though, that this plan was not exactly thought out. Any sale to a gullible official - who isn't spending their own cash yet comes out with statements like "I've never been so excited about anything" sounds like exuberance has got the better over common sense. I would expect that the money earmarked for this plan would be far better spent on orthodox police patrols: more officers, more man-hours and maybe even a few public awareness campaigns. Not as sexy, but far more effective.
Stupid to commit a crime? (Score:4, Informative)
Not one seemed so keen on going to school or on avoiding the police. Actually, going to prison was part of the networking with other thugs and the reputation building. So yes, there could be an investment of millions on cameras that can even see through the £5 hooded clothes but I don't think it will be much of a deterrent.
first reference to Orwell (Score:4, Insightful)
Crowbar (Score:3, Funny)
As demonstrated by one Gordon Freeman as he fled City 21 during the unrest in the early 2000s, these surveillance drones are particularly susceptible to blunt force attacks. Alternatively, subway tunnels and fast waterborne craft also make it difficult for the drones to follow and/or record.
If people stopped acting all crazy, this sort of thing wouldn't be suggested in the first place. As usual, it's the group of kids in the corner of the playground who ruin it for the rest of us.
The Secret History of Lancaster, CA (Score:3, Funny)
I was stationed at Edwards Air Force Base from 2001 - 2003. After the burgs of Rosamond, Mojave and the tragic-comedy of California City, Lancaster-Palmdale was the closest form of civilization to the base - just a 35-mile drive from the back gate!
While there I formed the theory that Lancaster was used as a checkpoint during the Okie migration of the Great Depression (see "The Grapes of Wrath" for further details). If you were halfway decent-looking, you were allowed to cross the San Gabriel mountains. If you were a freak of nature, you stayed in Lancaster.
Seriously - I never saw so many ugly people in one place in my life.
Alan Parsons Project (Score:4, Insightful)
I am the eye in the sky
Looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules
Dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind
And I don't need to see any more
To know that
I can read your mind.
Re:Anyone... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ask your friendly neighborhood drug lord.
The next version of the plane is then going to be armed with 20mm cannons. Why just watch crime when you can stop it dead?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Just remember what else trickled down. Drone aircraft for military use were originally unarmed, observation only craft. When they started mounting Hellfires and 25 mm cannon, there were a few debates about the legal niceties, but it basically just happened.
Re:Solution: Move. (Score:4, Insightful)
When you move out of your parent's basement, you'll find the world a bit less black and white and that Brave Words (while free and easy to make on the 'net) cost money and are sometimes hard to implement.
Parent
Re:Privacy? (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's part of the problem. We should be innocent unless proven guilty, not until proven guilty.
This fallacy presumes that we're all guilty, and it's just a matter of time until someone catches us. We need to stop referring to it as such.
This whole country is being turned upside-down by very subtle, un-noticed changes in our vernacular. We need to stop that.
Parent