Oracle Goddess writes "As part of a project to issue ID cards for all 1.1 billion of its citizens, India has announced plans to place information on every single citizen in what will be the world's second largest citizens' database. The government believes the scheme will aid the delivery of vital social services to the poorest people who often lack sufficient identification papers. It also sees the scheme as a way to tackle increasing amounts of identity fraud and theft, and, at a time of increased concern over the threat of militant violence, to boost national security and help police and law officials. 'This could be used as a security measure by the government which leaves migrant workers, refugees and other stateless people in India in limbo, without access to public services, employment and basic welfare,' said Charu Lata Hogg, an associate fellow of the Asia program at Chatham House."
When I read "Your Rights Online: India To Put All Citizen Info In a Central Database" I was horrified, But then I read further and realized that, while bad, it wasn't nearly as bad as the headline makes it sound.
Turns out they're only planning on putting some data about the citizens in the database. But it looks like people will still be allowed to keep their own grocery lists and address books etc. and manage them however they wish.
"Entrepreneur, Nandan Nilekani has been chosen to lead the ambitious project which will be the second largest citizens' database in a democracy, with China being the biggest."
I wonder if they are implying that China is a democracy or just saying that they have the biggest database...
I think Wal-Mart have a pretty big database about most citizens in the US. I remember reading they're not even the biggest. The credit reference agencies probably have data on most citizens in the western world.
Most governments have databases about their citizens.. Where do you think social security numbers come from?
I have no idea what is the project cost. But I really wish the government would spend the money on development of infrastructure. When the capital faces up to ten hours of power cuts per day [bbc.co.uk], you can imagine the state of rest of the country. More often than not, such large scale projects are a way for government officials to accept huge bribes. Corruption is rampant in India and I doubt that the project is undertaken for the 'common good'. It sounds good for developed nations, not for India which is still
An md5 hash of IP address, user agent and some random salt held in a cookie would do, wouldn't it? You could delete the cookie and have anonymousness back, and thanks to the random salt it shouldn't be easily possible to brute-force your IP address out of the md5.
Or maybe just create and publish a one-time PGP public key and sign your posts with the corresponding private key, which you'd discard after you consider the discussion finished.
Look, privacy is gone. You want to see the future? Read CFR monographs.
If you use the net (even if you think you're being tricky with Tor and Pgp and steg), your secrets are already revealed. And stored. Not to mention available for later analysis. People who think they're crypto experts will laugh at the RIAA but never realize that what applies to the RIAA applies equally to their own SEKRIT information.
Sometimes I think that the only reason why the average citizen isn't much more painfully aware of this, is because the people who have these capabilities generally have bigger fish to fry.
Even Tor doesn't do so well against an adversary who can view the entire network (and thus see both endpoints). I would be quite surprised if various governments did not have this ability.
Hey dammit, we had the idea of reducing everyone to a number long before you did, and we're the only ones that should have to suffer with that kind of stupidity. You can steal our jobs, but don't steal our retarded government ideas -- as a patriot, I simply must draw the line there!
Hey dammit, we had the idea of reducing everyone to a number long before you did, and we're the only ones that should have to suffer with that kind of stupidity. You can steal our jobs, but don't steal our retarded government ideas -- as a patriot, I simply must draw the line there!
Yeah. Too bad India's official statements don't add a one-liner to the effect of "When this is abused, please act surprised; your cooperation is appreciated."
by Anonymous Coward
on Sunday June 28, @11:11AM (#28504443)
India currently has no real way of identifying a person uniquely - other than a passport. Most formal government identification systems are uncontrolled and easily available in exchange for money. So we dont really have a credit system, no social security number etc. One recent change was PAN cards - a tax identification number.
So this could will help a lot in uniquely identifying a person - especially in a country where there are 28 languages, and where migration of labor has started increasing substantially.
This is also being led by Nandan Nilekini of Infosys fame.
[An estimated 100M id cards will be rolled out in 3 years]
Not having a way of "identifying a person uniquely" means that people can choose their own identity. For law-abiding citizens this is not a bad thing. I'm sure India has private ways for establishing identity similar to the ones that existed in the west for a while -- checkbooks come to mind.
For the provision of government benefits, it should be enough for people to register at the government office. For private transactions, most cases involve people with bank accounts, so they have other ways to prove
Go, get a driving license, ration card, voter's ID card in exchange for money if you will. If you can buy any of these identity cards you can definitely buy passport and a PAN card too. It could cost you a bit more, though.
Few years back, the Government of India started a project to implement social security number system just like in the western countries. They started accepting forms for this ambitious project. Initially, they started offering this form for people holding a PAN card. I haven't heard of
I think it's not terrible that a government have a working list of its citizens, especially if they put vital medical and other data on it. This can save lives and can get us more accurate reporting about how important it is to, say, find a cure for AIDS over a cure for cancer.
Having an easy way to contact or locate any citizen is also important.
We're so accustomed in the West to distrust of government that we've lost sight of the basic truth: it matters who you get into government, and how willing they are to fight back corruption (entropy). We can't regulate government into sanity. But we can pick sane people, although mass media democracy isn't so good at that.
Instead of fighting back at any recordkeeping, we might consider the following:
If we distrust government, we are forgetting that there are millions of ways government can wreck us that don't involve "Big Brother" scenarios. Bad wars. Corrupt economics. Allowing toxic waste to be in our groundwater. We don't see these as visibly as "Big Brother" scenarios, so we don't talk about them.
Letting Google keep records on who we are may be more destructive. A former friend turns enemy blogs about you? That's what the world will know of you when they Google you. Erroneous articles, conviction by public opinion? Just as corrupt as any corrupt government, but not as visible.
People like to have something tangible and external to blame. It wasn't my fault; God did it. It wasn't my fault; The 1984 Government did it. Leftists claim government is capitalist and dominated by white men; Rightists claim government is socialist and against white men. It seems every group is projecting its fears outside of itself in order to claim innocence.
I think it's not terrible that a government have a working list of its citizens, especially if they put vital medical and other data on it.
Then put it on a fob the citizen can wear around their neck, or clipped to their cell phone or in their pocket in the same place they would keep their ID card. No need to centralize.
Having an easy way to contact or locate any citizen is also important.
Then use a phone book and the citizens who don't want to be contacted can get unlisted numbers.
We're so accustomed in the West to distrust of government that we've lost sight of the basic truth: it matters who you get into government, and how willing they are to fight back corruption (entropy).
No, it really doesn't. Sooner or later everyone succumbs to the corruption of power. I don't want to have to put all of my trust in individuals - people lie, and politicians are especially good at fooling you. There isn't enough face time or research time in the world for even a significant minority of voters to really become familiar enough with any one politician, never mind all of them, to determine how corrupt they are. I want a system that severely restricts what the government can do, the less they can do the less people they can screw over.
We don't see these as visibly as "Big Brother" scenarios, so we don't talk about them.
Just because "big brother" is not the only risk of big government doesn't mean we should ignore it. For sure we worry about all those issues too, its foolish to claim that things like "bad wars" aren't also of significant concern. Especially after Bush's recent reign and the near constant criticism of it from day one.
Letting Google keep records on who we are may be more destructive.
Yes, Google is a significant threat too, and requires significant watchdogging. That doesn't mean take the watchdog off the government and set it on google, it means we worry about both.
Leftists claim government is capitalist and dominated by white men; Rightists claim government is socialist and against white men. It seems every group is projecting its fears outside of itself in order to claim innocence.
Actually, in your example, it seems like both sides are complaining government is too big and has too much influence over their own lives. I don't think that an argument for further increasing the scope and power of the government would go over so well from either of those simplified viewpoints.
I think it's not terrible that a government have a working list of its citizens, especially if they put vital medical and other data on it. This can save lives and can get us more accurate reporting about how important it is to, say, find a cure for AIDS over a cure for cancer.
So sell its virtues and then tell everyone where they can sign up. Voluntarily. Make it opt-in only, so anyone who doesn't want this isn't forced to participate. In the case of minor children, let their parents decide.
Not all of the west has big qualms about the governments keeping track of people. In Germany, where I have lived for a few years now, everyone has to register their addresses to a central agency, you are obliged to carry a valid id with you at all times, etc. And I don't think there is a big outcry about it among Germans. In fact everyone I have tried to convince that it should not be a requirement and you should be allowed to live off the grid in exchange of foregoing some benefits that such laws create, I
If we distrust government, we are forgetting that there are millions of ways government can wreck us that don't involve "Big Brother" scenarios. Bad wars. Corrupt economics. Allowing toxic waste to be in our groundwater. We don't see these as visibly as "Big Brother" scenarios, so we don't talk about them.
No, we don't talk about those because they actually are happening and unlike the Big Brother thing there's no recourse for us to stop them.
Sorry to burst your illusion of the wise philosopher king.
Isn't that what we all seem to want, in one form or another? I read the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius (an emperor of Rome) and I see a noble, upright man, the sort of person who really should be running things. Then I see how incredibly rare that actually is, how much of a joke our politicians really are when compared to this sort of standard, and it's a shame.
Issuing ID cards is an old tactic dating from the colonial period to suppress national security - as in, regular serial bomb attacks [telegraph.co.uk]. Both the British and new local governments used it, either to suppress independence movements, or to suppress communist/breakaway movements post-independence.
Regular bombings is not something that happens nowadays in the West, obviously. The United States, which is generally free of persistent domestic terrorism, may not have excuses to implement national ID and databases
I already have a national ID card which lets me vote, I have a PAN number which tracks literally every economic transaction of significance I make. They know everything about my vehicles and my travel arrangements.
Now, they're going to pay someone to build a system which correlates all this into some useless information. It'll take six years to build & cost tons of money for the government, half of which will end up being passed under the table as kickbacks and the rest with the contractors. Eventually, the system will be built and works fairly decently, but has no information about anyone who does not really volunteer it first-hand.
It'll be done, but completely useless. Some people will become rich and... as the general attitude will be "I want less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it". A complete waste of tax payer's money, but not quite the invasion of my privacy that most people imagine.
But hell yeah, I'm going to protest. Even their incompetence can't be depended up on:)
I already have a national ID card which lets me vote, I have a PAN number which tracks literally every economic transaction of significance I make. They know everything about my vehicles and my travel arrangements.
Now, they're going to pay someone to build a system which correlates all this into some useless information. It'll take six years to build & cost tons of money for the government, half of which will end up being passed under the table as kickbacks and the rest with the contractors. Eventually, the system will be built and works fairly decently, but has no information about anyone who does not really volunteer it first-hand.
It'll be done, but completely useless. Some people will become rich and... as the general attitude will be "I want less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it". A complete waste of tax payer's money, but not quite the invasion of my privacy that most people imagine.
But hell yeah, I'm going to protest. Even their incompetence can't be depended up on:)
You are one of the privileged few who generate enough income to be above the threshold to pay taxes.Not the entire population of India has a PAN number or a ration card or any form of id whatsoever.
The central idea of the national id is NOT to track citizens. Its main aim is to counter the major malpractices that thwart the efficacy of public welfare programs, where government provided benefits are usurped fraudulently by intermediate crooks (some of whom are a part of the govt machinery)
Its the pessimism of the likes of you that holds us back.The kickbacks and under the table aspects are one of the major reasons why this has been entrusted to Nilekani.
Get your facts right. After a long long time we have a government that is trying to sincerely uplift the masses. If you cant support them, at least dont hinder them.
As a citizen of India, I whole-heartedly welcome this measure. One of the benefits (amongst many) is that native Indian citizens will not be marginalized by hordes of illegal immigrants who have crossed the borders of our country. That might sound callous, and yes, it indeed is, but the harsh reality is that many regions of our country have had their demographics completely changed by vast, un-checked immigration from Bangladesh and Burma. These immigrants zealously bring their religion with them - the one with the conspicuous lack of family planning or birth control and outdated ideas regarding education and treatment of women. (I assume you can guess which one)
For a country like India which is already heavily overpopulated with a severe lack of natural resources, such immigration is just breaking the elephant's back. A national identity card system will go a long way to address this severe problem.
I am aware that Americans strongly believe in individual privacy and are only too eager to shudder and sneer at such measures. Privacy is a valid concern, but the need for privacy is stronger in the West and lesser in the East - one f those strange cultural differences - it simply matters less to us here. And in the hierarchy of needs, the rights of basic citizenship and access to government resources matters more than an individual need for privacy.
Will the system be fool-proof? Of course not. It will be hacked - I expect it will be hacked both socially (corruption) and through technology and will definitely be misused a number of times for fake identities. The risk of misuse, however, is not a sufficient argument against the very real need for introduction of such an identity system in our country.
I am aware that Americans strongly believe in individual privacy and are only too eager to shudder and sneer at such measures. Privacy is a valid concern, but the need for privacy is stronger in the West and lesser in the East - one f those strange cultural differences - it simply matters less to us here. And in the hierarchy of needs, the rights of basic citizenship and access to government resources matters more than an individual need for privacy.
If you represent the average Indian citizen than you have convinced me that for India this is a good thing. Afterall, if this is something you guys actually want then I think it would be ignorant of anyone else to say you shouldn't have it.
Parent poster is the reason why such a National ID Card is a bad idea for India.
This card will become a means to make people prove their "Indianness". This is a very bad idea in a nation as diverse and full of competing ethnic/religious/language groups as India.
People should not have to prove that they are Indian. Making people do so will poison the soul of this nation and cause existing divisions in society to deepen rather than be healed.
Well, if you have millions of people without ID, how do you know whether they are currently legal or illegal? Start with an illegal immigrant with no ID, let him choose his own Indian name, and give him an ID: voila, instant Indian citizen. 8)
India is a corrupt democracy. The more rules and laws are present, the more corrupt the government becomes. I bet my ass that billions of dollars will be spent to implement it, with doubtful results. The really criminal and refugees will escape by paying the local officials and politicians. The poor lower end will get their cards after they pay some money. The middle class will be harassed since most move around the contry. The uber-rich will not care. In short another fiasco to add to the many fiascos called government programmes.
... is that *actually* we all would like to have a government that does not know anything about us and doesn't care who we are and what we do as long as we don't act as criminals or work in sensible areas.
This is a very simple thing to understand: As long as you don't mess around with your neighbours they don't need to know anything about you. As long as you don't mess around with your larger community it does not need to know anything about you. As long as you don't mess around with your government it does not need to know anything about you. In an ideal world you could be born, live and die without your government even knowing about you as long as you don't try to do something that harms the government or the community the government cares for.
Of course it doesn't work this way because there will always be a minority of people trying to get away from what they've done or who switch identities to be able to plot and steel and murder without being caught. And the more complex and mobile a society becomes the less you can rely on people not being able to exploit this. Nowadays and in the future this means that "leave me alone as long as I leave you alone" won't work anymore (if it ever did).
So, yes: There is no way around databases of citizens, identity cards and all this shit. The sooner we accept this, the better. Because once you have accepted this you can start to look at the real problem and the real problem is securing all this against abuse and tampering both by the government and interested third parties. The real problem is not someone knowing everything about you, the real problem is *you* knowing nothing about everyone else and the government (or corporations) having both the power and the freedom to abuse what they have.
And there are no simple solutions to all these problems. Todays highly virtualized, mobile and complex societies create totally new problems which need new solutions. We're not made for this and we have no build-in solutions to these problems. Every solution the ape in you suggests is probably wrong. Don't trust your first thoughts. We are building this world as we go and we can only try to do it as best as we can.
Of course it doesn't work this way because there will always be a minority of people trying to get away from what they've done or who switch identities to be able to plot and steel and murder without being caught. And the more complex and mobile a society becomes the less you can rely on people not being able to exploit this. Nowadays and in the future this means that "leave me alone as long as I leave you alone" won't work anymore (if it ever did).
But it did work. It's only recently that we have even had the technology necessary to have this kind of (relatively) secure ID card and the databases that would make it actually useful. Somehow, we managed to get along prior to having this capability. Just think of America during the late 18th century. Back then you could commit a crime, skip town, and effectively disappear. Hand-sketched "WANTED" posters were about the most technologically sophisticated method of finding someone. There were no federal crime databases, so you could have a criminal record and move to another state and tell any employer "I have no criminal record" and they would have no effective way to prove otherwise.
Somehow, this didn't break society or cause it to melt down into a mass of anarchy and crime. In fact, the Americans of the late 18th century didn't even remotely have (especially violent) crime like we do today and the people were much more shocked by things like murders and robberies than we are today. They tended to have strong ideals and beliefs, and generally had faith in something greater than making money in order to have children so that they can grow up to make money in order to have their own children... I don't even think that what the faith is in is the point, but rather, that you have it and know because of it that there are higher ideals than immediate expediency.
There is a serious lack of inability to understand a sentiment. The best expression of that sentiment known to me is found in the Tao de Ching, chapter 57:
The more laws and restrictions there are,
The poorer people become.
The sharper men's weapons,
The more trouble in the land.
The more ingenious and clever men are,
The more strange things happen.
The more rules and regulations,
The more thieves and robbers.
Therefore the sage says:
I take no action and people are reformed.
I enjoy peace and people become honest.
I do nothing and people become rich.
I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.
That this is so nearly impossible for us to imagine today is the real problem. The Founding Fathers understood this and their beliefs about freedom, what we often label "Libertarianism" today in order to make it sound like just another option, embodies this realization when it's correctly understood and not merely parroted or preached.
Of course it doesn't work this way because there will always be a minority of people trying to get away from what they've done or who switch identities to be able to plot and steel and murder without being caught. And the more complex and mobile a society becomes the less you can rely on people not being able to exploit this. Nowadays and in the future this means that "leave me alone as long as I leave you alone" won't work anymore (if it ever did).
But it did work. It's only recently that we have even had the technology necessary to have this kind of (relatively) secure ID card and the databases that would make it actually useful. Somehow, we managed to get along prior to having this capability. Just think of America during the late 18th century. Back then you could commit a crime, skip town, and effectively disappear. Hand-sketched "WANTED" posters were about the most technologically sophisticated method of finding someone. There were no federal crime databases, so you could have a criminal record and move to another state and tell any employer "I have no criminal record" and they would have no effective way to prove otherwise.
But this isn't the 18th century anymore. Think about it. Not paying your bills (instead of running away without paying in a store), credit card fraud and thousands more things are only possible *now*. And easily possible. Things like that might not have been a problem back then, but today single persons can crash the economy of a small country. And they often do.
There is a serious lack of inability to understand a sentiment. The best expression of that sentiment known to me is found in the Tao de Ching, chapter 57:
The more laws and restrictions there are,
The poorer people become.
The sharper men's weapons,
The more trouble in the land.
The more ingenious and clever men are,
The more strange things happen.
The more rules and regulations,
The more thieves and robbers.
Therefore the sage says:
I take no action and people are reformed.
I enjoy peace and people become honest.
I do nothing and people become rich.
I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.
Yeah, I love this, too. But we are far beyond that. The "simple life" would exclude cars, computers, the Internet, credit cards, moving freely arou
But this isn't the 18th century anymore. Think about it. Not paying your bills (instead of running away without paying in a store), credit card fraud and thousands more things are only possible *now*. And easily possible.
ID cards are not a proposed solution for this problem.
Things like that might not have been a problem back then, but today single persons can crash the economy of a small country. And they often do.
For that they need political power. So far we have given it to them and we have reaped what
Their faith and acceptance of the old media is astounding. I could care less what AP/Routers/NY Times has to say: they've consistently biased the news to fit the establishment, promoted trivia over news (fark,) and stagnated with the aging baby boomers.
Opinion aside, they don't even acknowledge that newspapers could *not* post their material online. If they don't want it linked to, they don't have to make it available.
Imagine if the New York Times migrated entirely to the World Wide Web. Could it support,
I read the news and was quite impressed by it. It seems like a great idea, having basic information about the citizens available, and being able to provide better service using it. And if implemented it will be a great help for the people too, being able to have a single ID to serve as their Ration cards, Voter ID, PAN cards, Driving license, Electricity bill payments etc.
The most immediate problem however is that the infrastructure to utilize this kind of information is absent, and is not going to be widel
Is it possible to have national taxes/benefits without a federal database? Drivers' licenses are issued by state, and each state has a database of its licensees. Federal income tax is federal, and there's a federal ID for it (SSN).
Slashdot readers, little help? If universal healthcare were implemented in the US, wouldn't we need a federal database for it?
You're already in several federal databases, plus who knows how many databases owned by multinational corportaions. The time to panic has long passed, and apparently you slept through it.
Their uniform will consist of brown shirts, perhaps with pantlegs tucked into their boots.
I was told that this time it would be business casual. Focus groups have shown that there's much less resistance when smiling groups of multi-racial "associates" wearing Dockers and polo shirts kick in your door at four in the morning.
It isn't as bad as it sounds (Score:5, Funny)
When I read "Your Rights Online: India To Put All Citizen Info In a Central Database" I was horrified, But then I read further and realized that, while bad, it wasn't nearly as bad as the headline makes it sound.
Turns out they're only planning on putting some data about the citizens in the database. But it looks like people will still be allowed to keep their own grocery lists and address books etc. and manage them however they wish.
For now at least.
--MarkusQ
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I wonder if they are implying that China is a democracy or just saying that they have the biggest database...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I think Wal-Mart have a pretty big database about most citizens in the US. I remember reading they're not even the biggest. The credit reference agencies probably have data on most citizens in the western world.
Most governments have databases about their citizens.. Where do you think social security numbers come from?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:It isn't as bad as it sounds (Score:5, Informative)
India will always be referred to as being a Third world nation. This is because Third world [wikipedia.org] does not mean what you think it means.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You shouldn't assume because it makes an ass out of 'U' and me.
No. Assuming makes and assu out of me.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Assuming makes an ass out of U and Ming. As in, The Merciless.
Don't make an ass of Ming.
Re: (Score:2)
BTW, ACs have an uid of 666.
An md5 hash of IP address, user agent and some random salt held in a cookie would do, wouldn't it? You could delete the cookie and have anonymousness back, and thanks to the random salt it shouldn't be easily possible to brute-force your IP address out of the md5.
Or maybe just create and publish a one-time PGP public key and sign your posts with the corresponding private key, which you'd discard after you consider the discussion finished.
Or maybe... Just maybe... Maybe simply log
Re: (Score:2)
Look, privacy is gone. You want to see the future? Read CFR monographs.
If you use the net (even if you think you're being tricky with Tor and Pgp and steg), your secrets are already revealed. And stored. Not to mention available for later analysis. People who think they're crypto experts will laugh at the RIAA but never realize that what applies to the RIAA applies equally to their own SEKRIT information.
Sometimes I think that the only reason why the average citizen isn't much more painfully aware of this, is because the people who have these capabilities generally have bigger fish to fry.
Even Tor doesn't do so well against an adversary who can view the entire network (and thus see both endpoints). I would be quite surprised if various governments did not have this ability.
Re: (Score:2)
If we printed the GP's post out and ground it up in a blender, it would make a bitchin' martini.
Dean Martin would be proud.
Progress. (Score:4, Funny)
Hey dammit, we had the idea of reducing everyone to a number long before you did, and we're the only ones that should have to suffer with that kind of stupidity. You can steal our jobs, but don't steal our retarded government ideas -- as a patriot, I simply must draw the line there!
Re:Progress. (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey dammit, we had the idea of reducing everyone to a number long before you did, and we're the only ones that should have to suffer with that kind of stupidity. You can steal our jobs, but don't steal our retarded government ideas -- as a patriot, I simply must draw the line there!
Yeah. Too bad India's official statements don't add a one-liner to the effect of "When this is abused, please act surprised; your cooperation is appreciated."
Parent
Sort of like... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sort of like the IRS? They have how much money you make, where you live, what you own, who you're married to, and who are your kids.
It's not all bad! (Score:3, Informative)
India currently has no real way of identifying a person uniquely - other than a passport. Most formal government identification systems are uncontrolled and easily available in exchange for money. So we dont really have a credit system, no social security number etc. One recent change was PAN cards - a tax identification number.
So this could will help a lot in uniquely identifying a person - especially in a country where there are 28 languages, and where migration of labor has started increasing substantially.
This is also being led by Nandan Nilekini of Infosys fame.
[An estimated 100M id cards will be rolled out in 3 years]
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Can somebody please explain to me what the problem is with uniquely identifying each member of a society, what abuse becomes realistically possible?
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Go, get a driving license, ration card, voter's ID card in exchange for money if you will. If you can buy any of these identity cards you can definitely buy passport and a PAN card too. It could cost you a bit more, though.
Few years back, the Government of India started a project to implement social security number system just like in the western countries. They started accepting forms for this ambitious project. Initially, they started offering this form for people holding a PAN card. I haven't heard of
Better than Google (Score:4, Insightful)
I think it's not terrible that a government have a working list of its citizens, especially if they put vital medical and other data on it. This can save lives and can get us more accurate reporting about how important it is to, say, find a cure for AIDS over a cure for cancer.
Having an easy way to contact or locate any citizen is also important.
We're so accustomed in the West to distrust of government that we've lost sight of the basic truth: it matters who you get into government, and how willing they are to fight back corruption (entropy). We can't regulate government into sanity. But we can pick sane people, although mass media democracy isn't so good at that.
Instead of fighting back at any recordkeeping, we might consider the following:
People like to have something tangible and external to blame. It wasn't my fault; God did it. It wasn't my fault; The 1984 Government did it. Leftists claim government is capitalist and dominated by white men; Rightists claim government is socialist and against white men. It seems every group is projecting its fears outside of itself in order to claim innocence.
Re:Better than Google (Score:5, Insightful)
Having an easy way to contact or locate any citizen is also important.
yes.
yes it is. [toad.com]
Parent
Re:Better than Google (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's not terrible that a government have a working list of its citizens, especially if they put vital medical and other data on it.
Then put it on a fob the citizen can wear around their neck, or clipped to their cell phone or in their pocket in the same place they would keep their ID card. No need to centralize.
Having an easy way to contact or locate any citizen is also important.
Then use a phone book and the citizens who don't want to be contacted can get unlisted numbers.
We're so accustomed in the West to distrust of government that we've lost sight of the basic truth: it matters who you get into government, and how willing they are to fight back corruption (entropy).
No, it really doesn't. Sooner or later everyone succumbs to the corruption of power. I don't want to have to put all of my trust in individuals - people lie, and politicians are especially good at fooling you. There isn't enough face time or research time in the world for even a significant minority of voters to really become familiar enough with any one politician, never mind all of them, to determine how corrupt they are. I want a system that severely restricts what the government can do, the less they can do the less people they can screw over.
We don't see these as visibly as "Big Brother" scenarios, so we don't talk about them.
Just because "big brother" is not the only risk of big government doesn't mean we should ignore it. For sure we worry about all those issues too, its foolish to claim that things like "bad wars" aren't also of significant concern. Especially after Bush's recent reign and the near constant criticism of it from day one.
Letting Google keep records on who we are may be more destructive.
Yes, Google is a significant threat too, and requires significant watchdogging. That doesn't mean take the watchdog off the government and set it on google, it means we worry about both.
Leftists claim government is capitalist and dominated by white men; Rightists claim government is socialist and against white men. It seems every group is projecting its fears outside of itself in order to claim innocence.
Actually, in your example, it seems like both sides are complaining government is too big and has too much influence over their own lives. I don't think that an argument for further increasing the scope and power of the government would go over so well from either of those simplified viewpoints.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
So sell its virtues and then tell everyone where they can sign up. Voluntarily. Make it opt-in only, so anyone who doesn't want this isn't forced to participate. In the case of minor children, let their parents decide.
You ever
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Not all of the west has big qualms about the governments keeping track of people. In Germany, where I have lived for a few years now, everyone has to register their addresses to a central agency, you are obliged to carry a valid id with you at all times, etc. And I don't think there is a big outcry about it among Germans. In fact everyone I have tried to convince that it should not be a requirement and you should be allowed to live off the grid in exchange of foregoing some benefits that such laws create, I
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If we distrust government, we are forgetting that there are millions of ways government can wreck us that don't involve "Big Brother" scenarios. Bad wars. Corrupt economics. Allowing toxic waste to be in our groundwater. We don't see these as visibly as "Big Brother" scenarios, so we don't talk about them.
No, we don't talk about those because they actually are happening and unlike the Big Brother thing there's no recourse for us to stop them.
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Isn't that what we all seem to want, in one form or another? I read the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius (an emperor of Rome) and I see a noble, upright man, the sort of person who really should be running things. Then I see how incredibly rare that actually is, how much of a joke our politicians really are when compared to this sort of standard, and it's a shame.
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Anyone who doesn't understand why that day is absolutely inevitable once the systems are in place, should not be allowed to vote or run for office.
I don't derive any enjoyment from saying such a thing, but whether I enjoy it or not, it's true.
sometimes it works (Score:2)
Regular bombings is not something that happens nowadays in the West, obviously. The United States, which is generally free of persistent domestic terrorism, may not have excuses to implement national ID and databases
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India, sitting in B'lore and sceptical (Score:5, Interesting)
I think I know how this will work out.
I already have a national ID card which lets me vote, I have a PAN number which tracks literally every economic transaction of significance I make. They know everything about my vehicles and my travel arrangements.
Now, they're going to pay someone to build a system which correlates all this into some useless information. It'll take six years to build & cost tons of money for the government, half of which will end up being passed under the table as kickbacks and the rest with the contractors. Eventually, the system will be built and works fairly decently, but has no information about anyone who does not really volunteer it first-hand.
It'll be done, but completely useless. Some people will become rich and ... as the general attitude will be "I want less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it". A complete waste of tax payer's money, but not quite the invasion of my privacy that most people imagine.
But hell yeah, I'm going to protest. Even their incompetence can't be depended up on :)
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I think I know how this will work out.
I already have a national ID card which lets me vote, I have a PAN number which tracks literally every economic transaction of significance I make. They know everything about my vehicles and my travel arrangements.
Now, they're going to pay someone to build a system which correlates all this into some useless information. It'll take six years to build & cost tons of money for the government, half of which will end up being passed under the table as kickbacks and the rest with the contractors. Eventually, the system will be built and works fairly decently, but has no information about anyone who does not really volunteer it first-hand.
It'll be done, but completely useless. Some people will become rich and ... as the general attitude will be "I want less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it". A complete waste of tax payer's money, but not quite the invasion of my privacy that most people imagine.
But hell yeah, I'm going to protest. Even their incompetence can't be depended up on :)
++
I wish I had mod points today.
India, sitting in B'lore and optimistic (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
the ultimate IT make-work program (Score:2)
As an Indian Citizen, I welcome this (Score:4, Interesting)
As a citizen of India, I whole-heartedly welcome this measure. One of the benefits (amongst many) is that native Indian citizens will not be marginalized by hordes of illegal immigrants who have crossed the borders of our country. That might sound callous, and yes, it indeed is, but the harsh reality is that many regions of our country have had their demographics completely changed by vast, un-checked immigration from Bangladesh and Burma. These immigrants zealously bring their religion with them - the one with the conspicuous lack of family planning or birth control and outdated ideas regarding education and treatment of women. (I assume you can guess which one)
For a country like India which is already heavily overpopulated with a severe lack of natural resources, such immigration is just breaking the elephant's back. A national identity card system will go a long way to address this severe problem.
I am aware that Americans strongly believe in individual privacy and are only too eager to shudder and sneer at such measures. Privacy is a valid concern, but the need for privacy is stronger in the West and lesser in the East - one f those strange cultural differences - it simply matters less to us here. And in the hierarchy of needs, the rights of basic citizenship and access to government resources matters more than an individual need for privacy.
Will the system be fool-proof? Of course not. It will be hacked - I expect it will be hacked both socially (corruption) and through technology and will definitely be misused a number of times for fake identities. The risk of misuse, however, is not a sufficient argument against the very real need for introduction of such an identity system in our country.
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I am aware that Americans strongly believe in individual privacy and are only too eager to shudder and sneer at such measures. Privacy is a valid concern, but the need for privacy is stronger in the West and lesser in the East - one f those strange cultural differences - it simply matters less to us here. And in the hierarchy of needs, the rights of basic citizenship and access to government resources matters more than an individual need for privacy.
If you represent the average Indian citizen than you have convinced me that for India this is a good thing. Afterall, if this is something you guys actually want then I think it would be ignorant of anyone else to say you shouldn't have it.
Parent post is evidence why this is a bad idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Parent poster is the reason why such a National ID Card is a bad idea for India.
This card will become a means to make people prove their "Indianness".
This is a very bad idea in a nation as diverse and full of competing ethnic/religious/language groups as India.
People should not have to prove that they are Indian.
Making people do so will poison the soul of this nation and cause existing divisions in society to deepen rather than be healed.
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This card will become a means to make people prove their "Indianness".
Little Indian or Big Indian?
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This will only lead to more corruption (Score:4, Insightful)
India is a corrupt democracy.
The more rules and laws are present, the more corrupt the government becomes.
I bet my ass that billions of dollars will be spent to implement it, with doubtful results.
The really criminal and refugees will escape by paying the local officials and politicians.
The poor lower end will get their cards after they pay some money.
The middle class will be harassed since most move around the contry.
The uber-rich will not care.
In short another fiasco to add to the many fiascos called government programmes.
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What the hell are you blabbering about?
The basic problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
... is that *actually* we all would like to have a government that does not know anything about us and doesn't care who we are and what we do as long as we don't act as criminals or work in sensible areas.
This is a very simple thing to understand: As long as you don't mess around with your neighbours they don't need to know anything about you. As long as you don't mess around with your larger community it does not need to know anything about you. As long as you don't mess around with your government it does not need to know anything about you. In an ideal world you could be born, live and die without your government even knowing about you as long as you don't try to do something that harms the government or the community the government cares for.
Of course it doesn't work this way because there will always be a minority of people trying to get away from what they've done or who switch identities to be able to plot and steel and murder without being caught. And the more complex and mobile a society becomes the less you can rely on people not being able to exploit this. Nowadays and in the future this means that "leave me alone as long as I leave you alone" won't work anymore (if it ever did).
So, yes: There is no way around databases of citizens, identity cards and all this shit. The sooner we accept this, the better. Because once you have accepted this you can start to look at the real problem and the real problem is securing all this against abuse and tampering both by the government and interested third parties. The real problem is not someone knowing everything about you, the real problem is *you* knowing nothing about everyone else and the government (or corporations) having both the power and the freedom to abuse what they have.
And there are no simple solutions to all these problems. Todays highly virtualized, mobile and complex societies create totally new problems which need new solutions. We're not made for this and we have no build-in solutions to these problems. Every solution the ape in you suggests is probably wrong. Don't trust your first thoughts. We are building this world as we go and we can only try to do it as best as we can.
Re:The basic problem... (Score:4, Insightful)
But it did work. It's only recently that we have even had the technology necessary to have this kind of (relatively) secure ID card and the databases that would make it actually useful. Somehow, we managed to get along prior to having this capability. Just think of America during the late 18th century. Back then you could commit a crime, skip town, and effectively disappear. Hand-sketched "WANTED" posters were about the most technologically sophisticated method of finding someone. There were no federal crime databases, so you could have a criminal record and move to another state and tell any employer "I have no criminal record" and they would have no effective way to prove otherwise.
Somehow, this didn't break society or cause it to melt down into a mass of anarchy and crime. In fact, the Americans of the late 18th century didn't even remotely have (especially violent) crime like we do today and the people were much more shocked by things like murders and robberies than we are today. They tended to have strong ideals and beliefs, and generally had faith in something greater than making money in order to have children so that they can grow up to make money in order to have their own children... I don't even think that what the faith is in is the point, but rather, that you have it and know because of it that there are higher ideals than immediate expediency.
There is a serious lack of inability to understand a sentiment. The best expression of that sentiment known to me is found in the Tao de Ching, chapter 57:
The more laws and restrictions there are,
The poorer people become.
The sharper men's weapons,
The more trouble in the land.
The more ingenious and clever men are,
The more strange things happen.
The more rules and regulations,
The more thieves and robbers.
Therefore the sage says:
I take no action and people are reformed.
I enjoy peace and people become honest.
I do nothing and people become rich.
I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.
That this is so nearly impossible for us to imagine today is the real problem. The Founding Fathers understood this and their beliefs about freedom, what we often label "Libertarianism" today in order to make it sound like just another option, embodies this realization when it's correctly understood and not merely parroted or preached.
Parent
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But it did work. It's only recently that we have even had the technology necessary to have this kind of (relatively) secure ID card and the databases that would make it actually useful. Somehow, we managed to get along prior to having this capability. Just think of America during the late 18th century. Back then you could commit a crime, skip town, and effectively disappear. Hand-sketched "WANTED" posters were about the most technologically sophisticated method of finding someone. There were no federal crime databases, so you could have a criminal record and move to another state and tell any employer "I have no criminal record" and they would have no effective way to prove otherwise.
But this isn't the 18th century anymore. Think about it. Not paying your bills (instead of running away without paying in a store), credit card fraud and thousands more things are only possible *now*. And easily possible. Things like that might not have been a problem back then, but today single persons can crash the economy of a small country. And they often do.
There is a serious lack of inability to understand a sentiment. The best expression of that sentiment known to me is found in the Tao de Ching, chapter 57:
The more laws and restrictions there are,
The poorer people become.
The sharper men's weapons,
The more trouble in the land.
The more ingenious and clever men are,
The more strange things happen.
The more rules and regulations,
The more thieves and robbers.
Therefore the sage says:
I take no action and people are reformed.
I enjoy peace and people become honest.
I do nothing and people become rich.
I have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.
Yeah, I love this, too. But we are far beyond that. The "simple life" would exclude cars, computers, the Internet, credit cards, moving freely arou
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ID cards are not a proposed solution for this problem.
For that they need political power. So far we have given it to them and we have reaped what
Old media needs to die, and boomers don't get it (Score:2)
Their faith and acceptance of the old media is astounding. I could care less what AP/Routers/NY Times has to say: they've consistently biased the news to fit the establishment, promoted trivia over news (fark,) and stagnated with the aging baby boomers.
Opinion aside, they don't even acknowledge that newspapers could *not* post their material online. If they don't want it linked to, they don't have to make it available.
Great Idea. Won't Work. (Score:2, Interesting)
I read the news and was quite impressed by it. It seems like a great idea, having basic information about the citizens available, and being able to provide better service using it. And if implemented it will be a great help for the people too, being able to have a single ID to serve as their Ration cards, Voter ID, PAN cards, Driving license, Electricity bill payments etc.
The most immediate problem however is that the infrastructure to utilize this kind of information is absent, and is not going to be widel
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Is it possible to have national taxes/benefits without a federal database? Drivers' licenses are issued by state, and each state has a database of its licensees. Federal income tax is federal, and there's a federal ID for it (SSN).
Slashdot readers, little help? If universal healthcare were implemented in the US, wouldn't we need a federal database for it?
Re:We are going to need this for our US healthcare (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
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How incredibly appropriate. Their uniform will consist of brown shirts, perhaps with pantlegs tucked into their boots.
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Their uniform will consist of brown shirts, perhaps with pantlegs tucked into their boots.
I was told that this time it would be business casual. Focus groups have shown that there's much less resistance when smiling groups of multi-racial "associates" wearing Dockers and polo shirts kick in your door at four in the morning.
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What's to code? OpenLDAP already supports over 5 billion user records...