SSN Required To Buy Palm Pre 543
UltraOne writes "Sprint requires your Social Security number in order to run a credit check before they will allow you to open an account, according to a store manager in Silver Spring, MD. Since Sprint is the exclusive carrier for the Palm Pre, if you are not willing to provide an SSN, you can't buy this product.
I believe a full credit check for this level of consumer purchase is a clear example of overkill. I have supplied an SSN when buying a house and renting an apartment, but never for any other consumer purchase. I have purchased my cars with cash so far, so I don't have first-hand experience, but a car loan also seems to be an appropriate place to require an SSN for a credit check. At the very least, Sprint should have an alternative for people who don't want to give out their SSN. I also found the entire experience a powerful argument against exclusive license agreements." Read below for details of this reader's experience.
I was eager to purchase the Palm Pre to replace my aging Zire 72s, and also consolidate my PDA and mobile phone into a single device. Since reviews have generally been positive, I headed to my local Sprint store (8501 Fenton Street, Silver Spring, MD). My current mobile carrier is Verizon, so I also needed to set up service with Sprint.
The store had the Pre in stock, and the sale proceeded smoothly until the sales associate asked me for my Social Security number. He had already verified my identity with a driver's license. When I asked why the SSN was needed, he said it was to run a credit check. I offered a credit card instead, but he said that the SSN was required.
I asked to speak to the manager, who was a pleasant young woman, but not able to resolve the problem. She confirmed that Sprint required the SSN to run a credit check (through a credit bureau) before opening an account. I told her that I understood Sprint had an interest in making sure that I could pay for the service (I was planning to get the $70/month Everything Data 450 plan), but that I was concerned about identity theft and privacy. I offered several other options, including a check on my credit card limit, which is an order of magnitude greater than the combined price of the phone and two-year contract; placing the maximum deposit that Sprint requires from people with poor credit ($500); or pre-paying the entire two-year plan on the spot. None of these was acceptable options, so Sprint lost the sale.
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
Contract, probably not. But in a few months the original poster will probably be able to buy that Pre unlocked, with a prepaid (Pre-paid?) plan from someone, without going through the credit check. Money up front talks. :)
Re:They continue to fail (Score:2, Informative)
Nokia will already sell you any phone you want today. It's the American consumers that keep insisting on 2-year contracts.
You're no different. You want an uncrippled phone for the same price as a subsidized one. The iPhone isn't a low cost option, you're just buying it ON CREDIT.
At least you can then use it (Score:5, Informative)
Re:They continue to fail (Score:3, Informative)
Low Cost? An unlocked iphone costs I believe around $800 in places where it's available legally. In the US you pay $200 because the rest comes from the 2-year contract you're forced to buy alongside the phone.
Re:They continue to fail (Score:5, Informative)
You can buy an unlocked phone from most of the manufactures now. Just get a SIM card for the network you want to use and pop it in.
For example, the N85 [nokiausa.com] is $399 unlocked on the Nokia store.
Re:They continue to fail (Score:5, Informative)
The iPhone is definitely -not- reasonably priced. Last year's was $600 or $700 ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25478296/ns/technology_and_science-wireless/ [msn.com] ) and this years is $800 ( http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/06/15/rogers-fido-no-contract-iphone-3g-s-pricing-revealed-eh/ [boygeniusreport.com] ). That's not -reasonable- at all.
The G1 is about $450 outright, which is still too high to be called 'reasonable', but it's a lot closer.
These new toys are expensive. Period.
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
It's less about "because you are signing a contract" than it is because they are, in point of fact, extending you credit, in the form of allowing you to rack up usage charges that they will bill you for after the fact. They may not disclose what your credit limit is on that front, but believe me, behind the scenes, that number -- how far into usage charges they will let you get without payment -- has been calculated to the penny and stored in your account info.
Why do they retain this information? Like any other creditor they know that your credit situation changes, and they will periodically 're-check' your credit to see if their internal number for your credit-worthiness needs to be adjusted up or down as time goes on.
Put the tin-foil hats away, folks. Until you come up with a better system for identifying consumers to credit agencies, there's "nothing to see here."
It's worse over here (Score:3, Informative)
I live in Argentina and in order to legally buy a cellphone you need (to have and) show your DNI (ID) and not only that, they also do 2 photocopies of it.(The store keeps one archived and the other goes to the government for investigation).
A lot of people are actually banned from buying equipment or new cell lines, so they often go to the black market to fulfill their needs.
Regardless of that, I only use my D.N.I. (National ID document) for voting and bank related paperwork. For general ID we got a CI (ID card) that according to the law we should carry it at all times). Oh, also we need a driving license if you are driving so there goes ID # 3.
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
In Canada although it is not illegal for merchands to ask for your Social Insurance Number [servicecanada.gc.ca] you are not legally required to give it. If they refuse the sale, you can make a complaint to the Privacy Commissioner of Canada [privcom.gc.ca].
Re:Welcome to the watchlist (Score:5, Informative)
Your assertion that CDMA phones are unlockable is outright wrong. People have already unlocked the Pre for compatibility with Verizon.
The issue about no SIM card is a bigger one, however, because once you do unlock the device, you still have to get someone on a competing network to register and activate your device to their network which Verizon has a policy specifically not to do with devices they don't sell you. There are workarounds such as knowing someone, but it's never going to be as trivial as sliding in your SIM.
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
The first 5 are based on time and place of your application for an SSN. My siblings and I all have the same first 5, despite all being born in different states.
Re:And? (Score:4, Informative)
Having signed two Sprint contracts in the last two weeks, and looking at them right in front of me, I would not make it a statement of fact, as you have, that the spending limit is printed on the contract, as it doesn't appear on either mine or my wife's at all.
At the end of the day, though, even if it were printed on the contract, it's still CREDIT, and they've got every right to demand an SSN to do a credit-check on you if they're extending you credit.
Re:And? (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, that is correct. Since 2008 in the United States only the IRS, employers, banks, and very few specific institutions are still allowed to require you to submit your SSN. Even a landlord cannot legally ask people for their SSNs anymore and if he turns you down because you refuse to give it to him, you can report him. As an attorney it is a mystery to me that so many people are still not informed about the law and let companies get away with asking for SSNs. They should simply ask people for a reasonable deposit and not risk getting reported or sued.
buy in a state with consumer protection (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Gross assumption (Score:5, Informative)
that everyone has a social security number. There is no requirement to have one. I love the stunned looks I get when I reply "I don't have one". I actually have one, but they don't need to know that either.
You're correct that an SSN is not required, but assuming you are employed, your employer IS required to file taxes in your name and that requires an SSN.
If you are employed, file taxes and wish to take a deduction for your child, the child must have an SSN. Hospitals now routinely fill out and transmit the SSN paper work before your infant even leaves the hospital.
The Exalted One's administration (Obama) recently filed for legislation to "overhaul" the credit card industry, but AFAIK, never touched the SSN requirement. Why? Because the banking lobby is one of the most powerful in Washington.
On the front of your SSN card it says "Not For Identification", yet businesses have routinely done so for decades. It's time to put a stop to this abuse and require business to establish a secure option to the SSN. Losing control of your SSN is handing over the keys to the castle. If businesses can't manage to secure CC numbers, how can we trust them to secure this most important number?
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
The SSA contradicts you.
SSA.gov, questions, "When am I legally required to provide my Social Security number? [ssa.gov]"
"If a business or other enterprise asks you for your number, you can refuse to give it. However, that may mean doing without the purchase or service for which your number was requested. For example, utility companies and other services ask for a Social Security number, but do not need it; they can do a credit check or identify the person in their records by alternative means. "
They *can* take a deposit instead; nothing *requires* them to.
Landlord laws vary wildly by state. AFAIK in NC it's perfectly fine to ask for a SSN and deny if they don't provide.
Weren't SSN's supposed to never be used as an ID? (Score:3, Informative)
This seems to be one of those things where sure, you can insist on your rights and you'll simply miss out on things. Want a Pre? Then submit. It's a free country, don't be a whiner, yadda yadda. You need a credit check to get a job. Hey, you know what? Someone who's been out of work a while in this economy might have bad credit! Well, we certainly can't let a filthy fucker like that get a head up!
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
In Canada a lot of places will ask for a SSN but it's not required. It's even technically illegal to ask in many situations, I believe. They still manage to identify you to check your credit just fine.
You only get my SSN if you intend to pay me money or you're the government. If it's the other way around you can have my name and birth date, plus a credit card number if you really need.
I just moved to a different province and was rather shocked when I got a letter from the power company asking for my SSN. I ignored it, and they seem perfectly happy with that.
Not place of birth (Score:1, Informative)
but place of residency when applying for the SSN
Re:And? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
Search "Spending Limit Program" on the Sprint web site. They don't go out of their way to tell you they have a spending limit program, but it is available for those who lack credit or for those who don't want a $100/month bill to turn into $1000/month.
Re:Welcome to the watchlist (Score:1, Informative)
Haha. "Unlocking" doesn't mean the same thing on CDMA as GSM. Any CDMA phone will work on any CDMA network as long as the PRL has the right settings. The PRL is simply a file that lists the System IDs the phone is allowed to talk to. Tools like BitPim will easily allow access to this file, and there are tons of other ways to get at it.
But the *real* problem is the carrier. They have a big database of all the ESN/MEID (Electronic Serial Number / Mobile Equipment IDentifier) of phones they've ever sold. They can, if they want, simply disallow your phone access to their network if the phone wasn't sold by them. Same way they blacklist stolen phones, different database.
So you can unlock your CDMA phone all you want. But you can't make the carrier allow your phone registration on the network. Most carriers just don't care enough yet but it has happened.
It's a lot easier to use random phones with the web-based tools carriers have though. You can often buy a phone off Ebay and then use the web tool to switch the ESN assigned to your number and magically the new phone will work. But you still have to do it through the carrier, and they could easily see that you're registering a non-Verizon-provided phone on your account.
Re:And? (Score:2, Informative)
Go along the northeast border of the United states, don't cross the border...just go within 10 miles...
You're roaming on Bell Mobility near Quebec.
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
It is entirely possible to *legally* have the same SSN as another person, but with a different birth date.
SSN - Social Security Number; a unique nine (9)-digit number assigned by SSA to identify an individual when reporting wages, paying taxes and collecting benefits. - http://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnvshandbk/glossary.htm [ssa.gov]
The IRS wouldn't like that very much, since they don't ask for your birthdate on a tax return.
The birthdate is generally used as a secondary qualifier on most SSN checks because the SSN verification system can check the first 5 digits to see when and where a SSN was generated. So if you see a 18-year old from New York use a SSN that was issued in 1968 to someone in California, you might just have a problem.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OP_Home/handbook/handbook.14/handbook-1401.html [socialsecurity.gov]
-m
Re:And? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And? (Score:4, Informative)
I understand you Americans are pretty fast and loose with your SSNs, but up here in Canada, I've got both a mortgage and car lease, neither of which required me handing over my SIN (our analogue to your SSN). The only time you're required to give out your SIN is for tax purposes (ie, to employers).
Re:And? (Score:4, Informative)
You do realize that no one is required to provide you service in the manner you desire? Sure, they can't refuse to sell you a cell phone because you are a "slanty-eyed gook", but they don't have to put on a French maid outfit and kiss your ass either.
Re:And? (Score:2, Informative)
The SSN became popular in the US because it is basically the closest thing to a unique identifier for people because everyone has one, everyone's is different, it never changes, and is backed (and paid for) by the government.
It's not unique; they are recycled (hey, at least govt is being green, right?). The first five digits are based on where you are born, and the last four are basically a serial number. So no, not everyone's is different, because the number outlives the person. Yes,people can and do take advantage of that fact often. Also, it CAN be changed, if you can prove huge amounts of fraud because someone stole your identity. Its really hard, but can be done.
The fact it was originally used for tax purposes actually didn't factor into it very much.
It was orginally used for SSI purposes... taxes came later.