UK To Mull High Video Game Taxes — To Fight Knife Crime 615
chareverie writes "The Prime Minister of the UK is being urged to impose high taxes on violent video games in an effort to reduce the number of knife-related crime. The request comes from Richard Taylor, who argues that young people 'feel that the law has no control over them. They just feel that they can go on the streets and do whatever they like.' He doesn't have a definitive number on how much to tax on the offensive video games, but says that they should be 'very high.' Rap music is also voiced to be a concern due to the alleged negativity and language. Taylor's son, Damilola Taylor, was killed in November 2000 at the age of 10 by knife stabbing."
Correlation... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Funny)
Exactly. I knew a kid from bible camp 12 years ago who now is in federal prison for killing and wearing the skin of 16 flemish prostitutes. I always knew Jesus killed, but now that I know video games also kill, what will save us all? We must seek Mel Gibson for council.
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Stop institutionalizing and disenfranchising your youth. Stop encouraging your children to sterilize themselves. Wait a generation or two. Problem solved.
Oh, you want to actually enjoy life while you're young?
Exterminate the dependent elderly until they only represent a small portion of the population. Continue to sterilize yourselves so the dependent young never represent mor
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not a complex problem. People like to pretend that it's a complex problem because they like to "bargain", they like to "negotiate" with reality. "I don't want to take this responsibility, but I want the outcome, so how about I just do lots of this other thing instead.", they say.
But it's all smoke, mirrors and bullshit. The problem is based on simple, fundamental principles, and the lack of attention that
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ahh, the "It's too complex for you to know that, how dare you hold me responsible" argument. I've never heard "THAT" one before...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sometimes the solutions are simple, but unpleasant, or require effort, so they are ignored.
Right off the bat, there's some serious overgeneralizing in that statement. However, if it is the case, then the solution is simple in concept but difficult in execution.
Show young people that the system can work for them. That invo
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Question for you:
If the majority of the population are retired, and they vote for the young minority to work double shifts to support them, and the police enforce the will of the majority vote, is that freedom, or is it slavery?
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean, the people who own all the resources that you could very easily go and do productive work with are comfortable and have no desire to allow you permission to work them. But you can go stand in front of their box of stuff and say "Cash or Credit, I'm sorry sir, you'll have to pay for that" all day, and they'll feed, water and house you like the animal you are...
It's not unemployment, its disenfranchisement. While the disenfranchisement continues, the employment or lack of it are rather irrelevant.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Did he also notice that the kids who carry knives get their games via The Pirate Bay...?
Thought not.
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Obligatory xkcd for you, and it's even a recent one: correlation [xkcd.org].
Unfortunately, most idiots who spout drivel like this don't even have a strong correlation in the first place. Sales of violent video games may be up, and knife crimes might be up, but is it even the kids playing the games committing the crimes?
Giving adolescents more productive things to do is the best way to fight teen crime. If they're busy earning money, cleaning the parks as volunteers, acting in community theatre, playing music, dancing, painting, or playing organized sports they're less likely (and have less free time) to go out and commit crimes.
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
whereas a kid who buys lots of violent video games for his next-gen console and HDTV probably comes from a higher-income family.
Or knows how to use bittorrent and a soldering iron ;)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Uh oh. Are you saying that they'd stab people with the soldering iron?
I was wrong. Tax the shit out of it. This is dangerous stuff!
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"Freedom's just another word for 'nothin left ta lose'"
People who have more to lose tend to take fewer risks and do fewer bad things. People with little to nothing to lose have fewer moral limits... generally. (Clearly, there are more sociopaths that are in charge of the country and most big businesses than not) So the "BEST" way to control the people and curb violence and all that stuff is to make sure they have something to lose! Let them be more prosperous and comfortable. Give them better TV shows
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Informative)
Unfortunately, most idiots who spout drivel like this don't even have a strong correlation in the first place. Sales of violent video games may be up, and knife crimes might be up, but is it even the kids playing the games committing the crimes?
It's worse than that. Knife crime is down [bbc.co.uk]. The number of people injured by knives and other sharp instruments is down [bbc.co.uk] (although not by as much as was previously reported). Incidence of violent crime in general is down. [bbc.co.uk]
This hysteria and panic is caused by, well, nothing. Except the fact that for some unknown reason over the last 5 years the media has become much more likely to report each and every incident of violence with a knife that they get to hear about.
So, if there is any correlation, it's a negative one: more video games, less knife crime.
Re:Correlation... (Score:4, Insightful)
So, if there is any correlation, it's a negative one: more video games, less knife crime.
Interestingly, that seems to be the opposite side of the correlation != causation arguments that come up on slashdot every time violent video games come up. I know you're not concluding this in your post - but a lot of posts do tend to say "correlation != causation, and besides, violent video games help reduce actual violence ..."
Can't have it both ways, it always seems to be the same kinds of studies (whether psychological, statistical, correlation types, etc) that "prove" violent video games increase violent crime as those that "prove" that violent video games decrease violent crime.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This hysteria and panic is caused by, well, nothing. Except the fact that for some unknown reason over the last 5 years the media has become much more likely to report each and every incident of violence with a knife that they get to hear about.
Perhaps there's more media: more reporters + more vehicles of delivery = more output for the same crime.
Blow it out of proportion: one knife crime a day, 10,000 reporters to cover it, and reported in 25 newspapers, 37 TV channels and 600 websites. You would think the world was ending, too.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Actually, TFA not only fails to show causation, it doesn't bother to show correlation either. Never fear! We can fix that for them.
1. Accusation is correlation!
2. Correlation is causation!
3. ???
4. Profit.
Re:Correlation... (Score:5, Informative)
In 2005, there was a major layoff of teachers from the public school system of Minneapolis. That same year, there was a dramatic surge in the number of hurricanes to hit the Gulf Coast.
As such, either
1) Laying off teachers causes hurricanes
2) Hurricanes cause teachers to be laid off
3) Teacher get laid off in Minneapolis for the same reason hurricanes form, namely, warm water and air currents off the east coast of Africa moving toward the colder central Atlantic ocean
Correlation implies absolutely nothing without substantially stronger evidence to tie the threads together, and no, anecdotal evidence doesn't count.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"If you ask me, the UK government is in denial over the correlation between the rise in knife violence and its ban on firearms."
Good job nobody asked you then, because knife crime has been falling.
Oh, and nobody's carried a gun "for defence" over here in several decades. I know, I know, you want to say "they took your guns in 1998!!", but that's a bunch of crap.
Handguns were banned, this is true. However in a country of 60 million there were only around 125K individuals licensed to own (not carry, own) fire
Please correct my logic (Score:5, Insightful)
People spending more time playing video games have less time to stab people.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder if this will have an opposite effect than intended. Now instead of being able to vent their frustration on the Helghast, that knife on the kitchen table looks mightily attractive...
Plus, if you've gotten to the point that you want to stab someone, you have a mental problem...sucks that the UK government is punishing the citizenry for the acts of a few disturbed individuals.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Funny)
Lol, ahhh I can't stab old laddies in GTA...time to start stabbing them in real life.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not saying that guns should be illegal in the US or anywhere else, it depends what the people of that country want. But here guns are illegal and almost everyone is happy with that.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Insightful)
Outlawing hate speech would probably make "almost everyone" happy as well but that isn't a good justification to start infringing on civil liberties, IMHO.
Not at all. Outlawing hate speech (or any speech, for that matter) is a very controversial idea here, and there are significant efforts by civil rights lobbyists to prevent such things. That doesn't mean the government won't try to do it, like I said, I don't agree with them a lot of the time. But with guns the situation is much simpler.
In any case you reap what you sow -- your citizens are virtually defenseless against criminals wielding "weapons" that you'll never be able to take away unless you ban the consumption of meat. Congratulations.
I don't understand how introducing guns into the equation is magically going to make this situation better. If guns are more widely available then surely the criminals will have them, too? I don't really fancy my chances in a shoot-out! Even most police officers here don't carry a gun.
Don't get me wrong, British society has plenty of problems, not least with its government what with all of the CCTV and the war in the Middle East and the economic issues etc. but the gun policy we have here works for us and I don't really think you should be so disdainful about it. As I said before the US (which I assume you're from, if not then sorry and insert your country as appropriate) is its own place and is entitled to its own policy on the matter. I wouldn't want to pass judgement on the internal affairs of a country of which I have no great understanding.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Insightful)
We're also virtually defenceless against ICBM strikes, raptors, and armies of mutant zombie pirates. Oh noes! How will we ever defend ourselves!
Fact is, all the sensational stabbings the press have reported in the last year or so have had one thing in common: easy availability of guns would not have prevented them. It would just have meant that we'd have had a bunch of sensational shootings instead. I'm sure that would have been a real improvement.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Funny)
^^sarcasm
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
They also develop better hand-eye coordination, a foundation of stabbing abilities.
While that's true, button-smashing is even less applicable to stabbing than what you do playing Wii Sports Tennis is to playing actual tennis. If there was a "Wii Stab" game, you'd probably play most efficiently by sitting in a chair and using a bicycle pumping motion (what?) to do the stabbing.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Funny)
Dangit, when will people realize that it's the parent's responsibility to teach their children how to stab, not video games.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Funny)
Please correct my logic
This is the part where you fail. You erroneously assume that logic comes into play in the English government.
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Insightful)
You erroneously assume that logic comes into play with government.
Fixed that for you ;)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Hey don't short-change the Vulcan government!
Re:Please correct my logic (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed - the problem is that in this country, having a murdered son or daughter apparently gives you the right to pass a law banning whatever you like in your dead child's name. You'll get national media coverage for your campaign, and if the Government agrees, they'll use you as an emotional figurehead, promoting you as the emotive reason why Something Must Be Done.
I saw it with Liz Longhurst [bbc.co.uk] and her crusade to criminalise possession of porn she doesn't like, which has now passed [backlash-uk.org.uk]. Even now, she continues to pop up in the media again and again giving her uninformed one-sided views, whilst individuals, organisations and academics who opposed the law have had to fight to get even a slim amount of coverage. Anyone who dares criticise her is accused of being disrespectful, whilst it's okay for her to tell those who risk being criminalised "hard luck" [bbc.co.uk].
Grieving parents shouldn't be given additional media attention for political campaigning, over anyone else, and they are the last people we should be consulting for an unbiased and unemotional viewpoint on lawmaking.
Plus (Score:5, Insightful)
Plus there is the minor side issue that most video games use guns, not knives to inflict damage. It sounds like the proponent of this tax are yet another example of knee-jerk reactionaries with a hate-on for video games and rap music. Why is it that such nutbars are even heard by government, much less seriously considered?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Hmmm. On the other hand, what about teaching kids that violence (shooting, knifing, whatever) is not the answer? [Violent] video games don't do that.
Yes, it decreases their free time, but not necessarily constructively. I can think of a lot of other activities. You may as well say that TV prevents crime or something, and that taxing TV usage would increase crime? But there's the question of whether or not TV does something to the mind that increases this or that behavior when not watching TV.
Same with v
Well, next... (Score:5, Funny)
Now that they've done away with all gun and knife crimes, they need to fight shillelagh crimes. Shillelagh crimes have been steadily on the rise, doubling from one to two in just ten years. Even worse, some oafs are starting to hammer nails into their shillelaghs, just so they have metal pokey-bits to inflict more damage.
We need to tax all carpenters and lumberyards in the UK, or our youth will pay a terrible price in violence and fear.
Re:Well, next... (Score:5, Funny)
Whew! For a minute, I thought you wanted to tax me Lucky Charms.
HUH? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
For the same reasons that raising taxes on gun sales does nothing to stop gun crimes.
Re:HUH? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's just crazy sane type talk.
Re:HUH? (Score:4, Interesting)
Just like with guns, the law-abiders need to bear the full brunt of the legislation. Register all knives! If you're an honest cook, you have nothing to hide. So register knives today! And wait ten days for the appoveal. For the Children!
Remember, you're not a politician, and don't know how to run your own life.
Crime fighting via taxation (Score:3, Funny)
That is a damn good idea. And to stop rape, we should tax penises. By the pound.
Re:HUH? (Score:5, Funny)
Because the vaunted chefs of England would rise in revolt, brandishing their filet knives!
Pfft. The CCTV camera boxes would just announce "You there, stop that!" via loudspeaker. Revolt quelled.
Re:HUH? (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, yes, why not do that? If the sale of knives creates some danger in society, than it should be taxed equal to that danger and the funds should go toward extra police or similar.
Raising taxes can indeed be a way of fighting crime.
Oh really. Do you have any examples or argument for this astonishingly fatuous assertion? To the extent that taxes affect crime, it is that they create an opportunity for it. If you raise taxes on a commodity enough, it becomes profitable to bypass the tax—in other words, a black market springs into existence to satisfy the economic imbalance created by the tax. Of course, outright prohibition works even better at creating crime, because people must necessarily pay the going price for outlawed commodities. And that means profit. Or did you think that people would say, "oh no, coke is too expensive now because it's illegal, so I guess I'll stop using it". (Substitute substance of your choice, if you like.)
I suppose one could argue that the British prohibition of civilian gun ownership has had an effect: instead of "gun crime", they now have hysterics over "knife crime". But I would like to think that the true objective of the British government was to stop violent crime; I would like to think that the commodity to be limited was violence, not firearms per se. If so, they would have to admit the failure of their prohibitive laws. I would be naive if I really believed anything of the sort, of course.
I suppose that when they ban knives, they will have "club crime" and "rock crime". (Sounds like a new sort of music, doesn't it?)
Re:HUH? (Score:5, Funny)
Separation of problem and solution (Score:5, Interesting)
The youth of Britain apparently feel that the law has no control over them (something I agree is probably the case).
So you solve that by... raising taxes? It doesn't even matter on what, it might as well be rutabagas for the good it does you in terms of solving the problem. How is making video games that thugs want more expensive so they have to knife four more people to get the funds really going to help?
Instead, how about imposing some more forceful law over those that feel the law is irrelevant to their actions? When actions start having real consequences, people can and will change.
Re:Separation of problem and solution (Score:5, Funny)
Exactly.
So, instead of raising taxes on video games, they should impose a tax on stabbing people.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
they should impose a tax on stabbing people.
Hey, it's how they got Capone ;)
Re:Separation of problem and solution (Score:4, Informative)
Didn't you get the memo?
Enforcing the law in the UK is just sooooo last century.
We don't do that any more, it's just not cool. No, what we do instead is bring in hundreds of new laws outlawing things that were already illegal (terrorist activity), remove a few liberties whilst we're at it, direct the police towards legitimate protest and speech (they're all terrorists now!), bring in nebulous measures like ASBOs which allow anyone to enjoy the feeling of the courts coming down on them and imposing restrictions on their lives over any trivial matter that doesn't even have to be illegal... all whilst shouting about drugs and morality.
this is just one more reason I'm getting the hell out.
Punishment is a deterrent (Score:4, Informative)
If you think punishment of any form is not a deterrent, then talk to the guy who wrote the proposed law since he's the one saying youths have no regard for the law and that is a problem (again, how it relates to his proposed solution is not clear but whatever).
Punishment is not a 100% deterrent, but that does not mean punishment is never a good answer to get some level of prevention.
In particular, note that negative consequences are even more powerful. Fear of capital punishment is remote in someone's mind, but fear a target may be armed is much closer to someone's mind as a criminal. That's why areas with fewer gun control laws have all sorts of better crime statistics in general, especially when you factor out criminal vs. criminal crime (like turf wars).
If you truly believe utter lack of punishment and personal responsibility makes for a great society, I encourage you to move to the UK in a small town with some of the "Youths" in question and see how you feel in two years.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If you think punishment of any form is not a deterrent
He isn't saying that punishment has no effect, he says that harsher punishment has no effect. People might reason about getting captured by police, but they don't reason about getting 5 instead of 3 years in jail when commiting their act. If you want to stop future crime you have to fix the underlying causes in society, which of course most of the time isn't that simple or easy.
Why not tax (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why not tax (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, because most thugs are above stealing knives if they can't afford them.
This always comes up with gun laws, etc. The criminals aren't the ones that have difficulty getting guns and they don't care if they are breaking the law by carrying them. "Banning" guns or "banning" knives or any of that sort of activity (taxing, etc) only harms those that want to abide by the law in the first place, not those that are TRYING to break it (kill, stab, steal, whatever).
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
They would be better off (Score:5, Insightful)
if they would put police on the street. Apparently, spy cameras don't deter knife crime unless someone actually gets arrested for it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It probably doesn't help that so many cameras generate such shitty images that you wind up with a news report saying "Police are looking for an amorphous grey blob that stabbed another amorphous grey blob".
Twisted statistics to bring more revenue (Score:5, Informative)
The British gov't has systematically distorted statistics and selectively presented data in order to advance its own agenda.
This latest ploy probably has little to do with crime, and more to do with bringing in more cash to fund the gov't's pet projects. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7780057.stm [bbc.co.uk] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7781030.stm [bbc.co.uk]
K
Re:Twisted statistics to bring more revenue (Score:5, Informative)
The British gov't has systematically distorted statistics and selectively presented data in order to advance its own agenda.
Indeed. And so, too, has the media. As a consequence, while violent crime has dropped 8% over the last year, 65% of people polled thought it had increased [bbc.co.uk].
Anybody here in the UK who isn't reading Mark Easton's blog [bbc.co.uk] needs to add it to their RSS client now. I mean, before you even consider reading the next comment.
Re:Twisted statistics to bring more revenue (Score:4, Funny)
agreed, this comment isnt very good anyway
Some also want knives banned (Score:5, Interesting)
Some people in the UK are also calling for the ban of any pointed chef's knives [bbc.co.uk]. These people claim that there's no possible reason for a knife to have a point to it except to stab people. Now, I'm not a chef, but I've done my share of cooking. I will often use the pointed tip of my knife to "stab" a food item if the food (like, say tomatoes) resists my initial slice attempts (e.g. looks like it's going to squish instead of slice cleanly). What's next? Ban scissors? Box cutters (not just from planes but any possession of)? Swiss Army Knives?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
While we're at it, why don't we ban penises? After all, it's the weapon of choice for rapists everywhere
Re: Food preparation (Score:3, Informative)
I will often use the pointed tip of my knife to "stab" a food item if the food (like, say tomatoes) resists my initial slice attempts (e.g. looks like it's going to squish instead of slice cleanly).
Offtopic, but you either need to sharpen your knives or use the right knife. Probably both. :-)
A freshly sharpened chefs will cut tomatoes, but not for long. Using the steel hone will prolong this, but it's still not the right blade for that. I pull out a scalloped or serrated blade, and that works wonders. Even so, I need to get mine sharpend.
Re:Some also want knives banned (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Some also want knives banned (Score:4, Interesting)
Correct - a law against pointed knives would outlaw, for example, paring knives; making it difficult to peel certain fruits.
As per the linked article [bbc.co.uk] explicitly says "The researchers say legislation to ban the sale of long pointed knives would be a key step in the fight against violent crime." So the proposed legislation would not outlaw paring knives.
Besides, many knives are equally effective at causing harm using just the bladed edge (think butcher knives.)
No, they are not equally effective - the most effective type of knife to fight with is one which permits both slashing and piercing attacks. Weapons which only allow one or the other are obviously, provably less versatile.
The best argument against any litigation like this is always the same. At some point you have to accept that since any able human can kill any other able human with nothing more than a broken chopstick (you have to sleep sometime) banning things is never going to prevent murder. If you want to prevent murder, you have to change people.
The second best argument is always equally predictable: The utility of the item in question. Claims from "top chefs" to the contrary, there is no knife as useful as the Chef's Knife [wikipedia.org] (I have always called it a French knife, and since I don't eat "Freedom Fries" I probably will continue to do so.) The really relevant part of the above article is as follows:
Good kitchen knives are expensive and a single high-quality knife can easily run into the multiple hundreds of dollars. This one (large, pointed) knife does the job of many knives and furthermore, it makes many tasks easier than trying to perform them with almost any other tool. My lady is a professional chef who has worked in a broad variety of restaurants including a four star on Orcas island. We have a food processor and a blender with a mini food processor attachment in our kitchen and both of us regularly use a French knife. For example, if I want to dice a small quantity of fresh garlic, the food processor is essentially useless as it will only distribute partially-chopped garlic around the bowl of the processor. The most popular current alternative to this knife, the Santoku does not have enough curve to dice easily, a task at which the French knife excels. A garlic press crushes the garlic, even if it has a chopper on it. If you do not believe that this makes a difference, your taste buds are fired. Hire new ones.
In summary: A single large, pointed knife can perform almost every knife-related task in the kitchen - if you prefer high quality goods this can save you hundreds of dollars. Hand-picked top chefs who say that they don't need a large pointed knife clearly don't make sushi, cut up chickens, or dice their own garlic, let alone have the same economic concerns as the average "man in the street" - it's hard to see what it looks like in a normal kitchen from the top of an ivory tower.
Is anyone surprised? (Score:3, Insightful)
Is anyone surprised that the chavs and yobs running around with knives are powerful, and the defenseless British public are scared and powerless? This is exactly what happens when the criminals lack fear because the British people have been completely disarmed. What is a person supposed to do now against someone who has a knife? Ask politely for them to stop?
While the timing of this article, and response, is very poor given the two horrendous gun crimes yesterday and today, perhaps it is time to revisit the anti-weapon stance that has gripped England since the Scottish school massacre. Take away the guns, then only criminals will have them. Outlaw knives, and only criminals have them. Outlaw video games next?
Re:Is anyone surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, the victim has a Duty to Retreat [wikipedia.org], sometimes even within their own homes. It is laws like these that have made the public scared and powerless. For the convenience of the government, it is better for ordinary people to simply lay down and die when face with criminal activity.
People have the right to stand their ground and yes, use violence when they are in danger. While I don't agree with "shoot first" laws that some American states have implemented, it is not always the case that the first person to use violence is in the wrong.
It's not just guns and knives. People have been seriously injured, permanently disabled and even killed by bare hands and boots. It may be more legally clear who is in the wrong if your attacker strikes first, but that will not help you much if you have to walk with a limp for the rest of your days. Unfortunately, modern legal systems do not recognise this, and will judge the honest man who strikes first far more harshly than the career criminal who does so.
It's not a question of being armed. Arming people won't help. You have to give people the right to defend themselves. The real right. Not a clause that only comes into effect when they've already been rendered unconscious.
Excellent Idea (Score:5, Funny)
video games (Score:5, Funny)
If you can't see the causal relationship between video games and stabbing hookers, then you've never played Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
Misleading Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Just for clarity - the UK government aren't doing anything like what's being implied. One man, rightly or wrongly, is suggesting this.
While they're at it (Score:3, Funny)
England prevails (Score:3, Insightful)
This is what happens to a country that takes people's guns away.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What has this got to do with guns?
Do you think violent crime would be so rampant if the criminals weren't assured of having unarmed victims?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes.. or are you trying to say the violent crime rate is higher in the UK than in the US?
While a lower violent crime rate in the UK is not an argument saying that outlawing guns lowers violent crime, I think it is a fairly strong argument that allowing everyone to own guns doesn't necessarily lower it either.
I think your idea shows a common misconception about violent crime. For example, a lot of violent crime occurs between gang members; the fact that the gang members they commit violence against also hav
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
While a lower violent crime rate in the UK is not an argument saying that outlawing guns lowers violent crime, I think it is a fairly strong argument that allowing everyone to own guns doesn't necessarily lower it either.
I suspect that we would both agree that the best way to lower crime is to address the underlying causes of it. You'll note how crime tends to go down when the economy is doing better and less people are pushed into desperate acts for example.
I also suspect that we would both agree that no matter how good of a job you do on paragraph a, you'll never be able to entirely eliminate violent crime. Once you accept this you have to decide if you want your citizenry to be able to defend themselves or if they sho
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not sure what both parties carrying guns would accomplish, except to make one or more parties into a fatality.
And the criminal ending up a fatality is a bad thing, because.....? The criminal is the one who made the decision that somebody was going to die when he decided to pull that knife or gun. At that point it's just a question of who.
But the few times when I have been mugged, me having any sort of weapon would have very quickly become the criminal having that weapon, along with my wallet and phone
Maybe you should learn some situational awareness so you won't get surprised like that in the future? Go take a self-defense class. You need not carry a gun to learn ways to defend yourself against those situations, although the gun certainly helps.
Should you have the right to kill someone because they want your wallet?
I would only kill someone i
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
but you do know that there are plenty of countries without guns where this issues aren't prevalent?
There are also plenty of countries with guns and a fairly low rate of criminal activity. There's also US States with liberal gun laws and lower crime rates than US States with strict gun laws. Perhaps the mere availability of guns doesn't cause crime and there are other underlying factors we should be addressing, like poverty?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't tell whether this is sarcasm or genuine genuflection at the NRA's altar... but you do know that there are plenty of countries without guns where this issues aren't prevalent? Or that death by gun is exactly like death by knife? Right?
I think what the original poster was talking about is that UK politicians pushed through large restrictions on gun ownership in the name of reducing crime. It didn't work, so they obscured the numbers, changed how they count crime to give plausible deniability, and declared success. So when violent crime continues using different implements many people (convinced that the gun legislation was successful) look to additional legislation to try to restrict ownership of other items.
Now the original poster was by
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
While death is death in the end, you have a much, much higher chance of surviving a knife attack than a gun attack.
I also stand a much better chance of surviving a bludgeoning attack if I have a gun. Moreover, if people think I might have a gun, I might not have to defend myself at all. Since all of these factors come into play it is important to look at actual numbers on violent crime and death with regard to any proposed restriction.
Alternatives. (Score:4, Insightful)
Bullying was the cause of Damilola's death (Score:5, Interesting)
Bullying is the real problem here which should be addressed.
Revenue Streams? (Score:4, Interesting)
My head just exploded.
If you ban guns... (Score:4, Insightful)
... soon criminals will only have knifes. What's next? Sticks and stones?!
They're taxing the wrong thing! (Score:3, Interesting)
Stabbings occur with knives! Not Video Games. It's the knives that they should be taxing!!!
Re:They're taxing the wrong thing! (Score:5, Funny)
The Government can empathize with young people (Score:3, Insightful)
More nonsensical pandering. (Score:4, Insightful)
I still don't get this. Why is knife crime suddenly such a big deal here in the UK? It seems like every other day some newspaper or TV news or something is talking about it. You hear phrases like "knife-crime epidemic" bandied about.
See 2008 crime figures [bbc.co.uk]:
Nothing to see here. Move on. Stop whining, and yes, Daily Mail editors, I mean you.
I don't get it...what is it with these silly prigs (Score:3, Informative)
I thought all crime was supposed to cease in England when they banned firearms.
So, now it's knives?
Next, they will come for the pointy things.
Eventually, everyone in England will be required to be lobotomized in order to prevent anyone from taking any actions whatsoever that might be harmful to someone else.
I blame Ronco and Ginsu (Score:3, Funny)
Don't forget your local/national/international package delivery service for allowing dangerous, dangerous knives to be dropped off at the homes of young, impressionable children. It's called "The Postman Always Rings Twice," not "The Homicidal Maniac Always Rings Twice."
And the parents, such horrid parents, for using knives in front of their children, cutting meat and chicken like so many innocent bystanders.
Home kitchens should have all utensils tethered to the walls like in prisons. I've seen it on TV. I've never heard about anyone getting stabbed in a prison kitchen.
Now how much would you pay? In dollars or the souls of your victims?
I prefer the good old days of clean cut television. Wholesome programming like "Leave It To Beaver." But can anyone help me remember what Beaver's last name was?
Knife stabbing? (Score:4, Informative)
Taylor's son, Damilola Taylor, was killed in November 2000 at the age of 10 by knife stabbing."
Actually, although it doesn't make it any less tragic, I'm pretty sure he was stabbed with a broken bottle [wikipedia.org]...
Before you ask, in the UK bottles are only taxed heavily if they contain alcohol.
He is not an expert! (Score:3, Insightful)
He doesn't know what the causal relationship is between knife crime and games, nor does he have any idea what the effect will be on demand for games should they be taxed (it's possible that the publishers would end up swallowing a large part of it because games are presumably at the price which maximises profit*number of sales).
Son killed by 11-14 year old gang bullies (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to be rude or anything, but maybe he shouldn't have named his son Damilola? With a name like that, the kid was doomed to be either the victim of a gang or the leader of a gang...
Seriously though, there's too many things wrong with the whole story to do more than begin to point them out. He's trying to legislate his grief, which has been a bad idea since the beginning of time (and the reason a lot of humanity has gotten away from the idea of kings). And in the process, he totally missed his mark. If he wants to legislate something, he should consider what went wrong in the schoolyard.
Why, with the UK's omnipresent surveillance and nanny state, did no one notice that a pack of kids had gone all Lord of the Flies on the playground? Could it be that the surveillance of everything DOESN'T WORK? That it induces a sense of false security on the part of adult supervision, eliminates the idea that personal responsibility should be inculcated in kids, and does absolutely nothing to address any of the root causes of gang violence? Could it be that by passing law after law after stupid assinine law that a contempt for the law has been bred into the citizenry? And now he wants to add another stupid assinine law...
A certain Biblical quote is apropos: You reap what you sow.
Right that's it. (Score:5, Funny)
Let me get this straight (Score:5, Insightful)
They destroyed industrial communities. They gave the police virtually unlimited powers to stop and search young people. They established a foreign policy of might-makes-right and went out of their way to antagonize and alienate immigrant communities. They lied, took bribes, started wars, incited racism, crushed civil liberties, and they are still standing trying to talk like statesmen.
And computer games are to blame when the kids go berserk? Fucking retarded.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)