Sheriff Sues Craiglist For Prostitution Ads 695
Amerika writes "Craigslist is 'the single largest source of prostitution in the nation,' according to Cook County, Illinois Sheriff Thomas Dart. He has announced that he's filing a lawsuit against the popular classifieds site. Craigslist says it's determined to prevent criminal activity." NewYorkCountryLawyer adds a link to the 28-page complaint (PDF), which "alleges that Craigslist maintains 21 classifications of sex-for-hire, coded as 'w4m,' 'm4m,' 'm4w,' etc." and that it has facilitated child prostitution and kidnapping and human trafficking.
former state governor seeking stupid sheriff - g4s (Score:5, Insightful)
This is Illinois again I see we are talking about, after all. Maybe the sheriff in question is just upset because he can't get a cut of the local "action" if it's all happens online...
Here we go again (Score:2, Insightful)
When did this idea emerge that you can sue a infrastructure for what is happening on it? This concept is new to me and doesn't make any sense. Next they'll be suing the newspapers for ads that enable people to engage in casual sex. About time someone did something about this.
All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:4, Insightful)
All consentual sexual relationships are a form of prostitution when you get to the basics of it...be it money, food, protection...
What about the wife that won't have sex with her husband until he does some chore?
Isn't that prostitution?
Streets Department (Score:5, Insightful)
I think they should probably go after the Streets Department first. Prostitutes have been using the streets to solicit prostitution for centuries. And I'm almost certain that there are more prostitutes using streets than using Craigslist.
Suing the telcos next? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Here we go again (Score:3, Insightful)
Someone needs some bail-out money reaal fast. Too bad the hookers and pimps didn't pay their protection money and now you've got to sue the interwebz for ruining your business.
Sounds about right. It's as if chat forums, bulletin boards, and even the regular classifieds in the newspaper hadn't been used for this purpose for *years*.
Not a source (Score:5, Insightful)
Prostitutes exist with or without Craigslist; it is not a "source" and it does not create prostitutes. They'd be out walking the street if Craigslist didn't give them somewhere safe to advertise. I'd much rather keep them on the web than on my sidewalk.
Re:Streets Department (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, to be fair, streets department rarely designate streets as the place to go if you want sex.
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:5, Insightful)
Expecting your date to put out because you bought her a nice dinner is OK, but paying her cash for sex isn't. Go figure.
Well I don't think either is reasonable, but maybe that's just me.
Re:when did singles sites become... (Score:1, Insightful)
I believe that there's also an "Erotic" section over under "Services". That seems to point more strongly to an exchange of cash. My guess is that Craigslist has a pretty decent excuse there in that the term "erotic" doesn't necessarily mean prostitution. (There are strippers, massages, and so forth which are not, in general, illegal and would probably qualify.)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:2, Insightful)
"Expecting your date to put out because you bought her a nice dinner is OK..."
Do you really think that this is a "standard" in society? I'd like to think it isn't.
Re:Prostitutes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Read the Complaint (Score:4, Insightful)
I wish more of the authors of these smug, dismissive comments would read the complaint.
It makes a compelling case that the primary use of the "erotic services" section of Craigslist is prostitution, both the "consenting adults" variety and the quite non-consenting child sex slavery variety. It also cites specific cases where Craigslist was used to facilitate the abuse of child sex slaves. Is anyone here concerned with that, and that Craigslist is profiting from that traffic?
Note that the sheriff isn't trying to shut down Craigslist; his office sent 5 letters to Craigslist asking them to better police the "erotic services" section or shut it down. According to the complaint, Craigslist refused. It would seem that the owners of Craigslist value their profits more than the lives of the children whose exploitation they benefit from.
How often has the phrase "Think of the children" been bandied about on Slashdot with a wink and a sneer? Well, here's a case where there are actual, real, hurting children to think about. How many of you are brave enough to challenge the groupthink around here and do that? Where is the outrage that Craigslist is profiting from human traffic? Some of you need to turn in your liberal credentials at the door.
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:2, Insightful)
Expecting men to pay for dinner and not get anything in return isn't reasonable either. Split the check and you avoid this whole issue.
It's who asked out whom (Score:5, Insightful)
The person that does the asking out to dinner pays.
After all, the other party was gracious enough to accept.
Re:Here we go again (Score:5, Insightful)
Little aftertought, after reading the ars technica update I believe this is about money.
The Cook County Sheriff's Department is asking a federal judge to close the Erotic Services section of Craigslist, as well as reimburse the department $100,000 it has cost to pursue Craigslist-related prostitution investigations over the past year,
Umm...Shouldn't the police force be paying craigslist? Craigslist didn't create the prostitution. They stuck it all in one spot. The only way they could have helped the cops more is if they placed a big red arrow that says "hooker" over the prostitute's heads.
Re:Suing the telcos next? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know how CraigsList is edited, but if there is any staff dedicating any time whatsoever--even seconds per month--to editing community messages, then they move from being "clear channel" providers to "publishers" or some such, and they are responsible for content.
Re:He didn't sue the mortgage banks (Score:4, Insightful)
Remind me what the branches of government are again?
Since when does he have the right to pick and choose which laws he enforces? Nice lie by omission, but just because the tenant is paying rent on time doesn't mean the owner/landlord is paying the mortgage.
Those are two entirely separate legal contracts.
Not that I'm unsympathetic to the tenants, they should get some form of protection (even if it's just a delay until they find somewhere else) or maybe just garnish the rent direct to the bank.
Re:Here we go again (Score:5, Insightful)
Mod parent up.
Old school: Go undercover/hit the streets to round up prostitutes.
New school: Login in to www.craiglisst.com from the comfort of the squad room, set up a date, make arrest. Rinse, repeat.
That douchebag Sheriff should be thanking them for making it much easier for him.
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:4, Insightful)
Good lord, no. You "expect" as in anticipate, not require, your date to "put out" because that is frequently the end result of a romantic evening with someone you've been romantically involved with for some time, and the date in question qualifies and the mood is right. Anything else and you're just a pig. Which is, in a way, a social standard or stereotype, but a negative one, not OK.
Though I guess before I sound too high and mighty, I did laugh my ass off at the Family Guy spoof of the DeBeers silhouette ads with the implied bj and the tag line "Diamonds: She'll pretty much have to." Yes, we men buy things for women with the hope that it'll get us laid. But to "expect" in the sense you meant where it's equivalent to prostitution? No.
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:4, Insightful)
What you get is a pleasant evening out with a lady. If "reasonable" to you means that you will receive sexual recompense for your outlay of dinner expense, then maybe you should just skip the dinner and buy a prostitute. They are imminently reasonable in that sense.
Re:He didn't sue the mortgage banks (Score:5, Insightful)
source [cnn.com]. Not that the con talking heads bothered to mention any of these trifling little legal issues back when they proclaimed that this was some kind of activism and socialism and satanism and whatever else they could throw at it.
The bank must follow the law, and the law states the residents of a non-owner occupied property must be notified in advance, which the poor, poor banks just couldn't be bothered to do.
They were apparently too busy licking the boots of the fed chairman for cash to think "Hmm... renter in good standing making monthly payments, owner in bad standing not making monthly payments. Maybe we should offer them the house in exchange for them continuing to pay. The worst that could happen is they say no and move out." But that would require working for their money and if there's anything we've learned in this crash, its that the leadership of our institutions are deathly afraid of work and deserve money to fall upon them from the federal government.
Re:It's who asked out whom (Score:5, Insightful)
It's totally fair.
But you're right, there is an expectation. And it's not wrong. If you sit around and wait to be asked you're going to be asked by people with their own goals in mind. If someone tries to woo you and you want that behavior to continue (expensive meals, etc) then you need to consider what they're looking for.
It's pretty much like joining the host in whatever activity they have planned. You aren't required to play cards, or join their orgy, but they probably aren't going to invite you back if you didn't fit in.
Re:In other countries... (Score:5, Insightful)
... adults with imaginary friends are given free psychiatric help.
In the US, we give them political power.
OK, I'll bite.
What are you talking about? This is a story about a lawsuit. A strange lawsuit that seems to be trying to enforce criminal statutes on a tort-like theory of public nuisance. It likely won't go anywhere, since it's hard from the complaint to even make out who the aggrieved party is supposed to be. (Is the Sheriff himself harmed in some way by Craigslist's practices? I think he'll have to show that if he wants an injunction. Otherwise, if he thinks something cognizably criminal is going on he could maybe investigate and prosecute. Which he can't, so this whole thing is largely symbolic.)
Now you come in babbling about political power for imaginary friends. I guess it's OK, though, as there seem to be enough like-minded schizophrenics to get you modded insightful. Perhaps you could move overseas, and avail yourself of some of those marvelous free services...
Re:Read the Complaint (Score:4, Insightful)
I have an issue with your line that Craigslist is profiting by this. Last I checked, not only was Craigslist free, but there are no ads.
Why not sue magazines that have classified ads geared towards erotic services? I'd bet there are "erotic services" advertised in most major newspapers or local rags.
I'd think that the police looking at Craigslist ads has done more for locating abused kids forced into prostitution than their "normal" investigations.
Re:He didn't sue the mortgage banks (Score:4, Insightful)
One of the checks and balances lies in the fact that "executives" (this effectively includes sheriffs) can decline to execute. This is unusual, as there will often be political consequences, in the form of lost elections, recall efforts, or in some circumstances, impeachment, but civil or criminal consequences are exceedingly rare and apply only in certain extraordinary cases.
And even if there are non-political consequences in a given case, you're still relying on executives to enforce those consequences.
In the end, governments (and for that matter, business, military, or any other large organization) function because most of the time, in most of the cases, the people involved will carry out "lawful orders" even if they disagree with them. Sometimes you reach a breaking point where someone isn't willing to do that. What happens then depends on many factors, but public opinion is a often a big one.
Re:Not Craiglist's fault (Score:0, Insightful)
Do you realize -- considering the number of suitable orifices -- that two of those m's would have to be m4m's, and one of the others would have to be an m4*?
Re:Read the Complaint (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, I read the complaint and the allegations of increased revenue from the erotic services section are unsubstantiated. There is no evidence that directly links the visits to that particular section of craigslist to any other.
Reading the complaint, you could be forgiven that craigslist is popular because of the erotic services. Isn't it just possible that girls choose to use that venue because craigslist itself is popular?
By way of interest, in cities where prostitution is legal, those particular boards on craigslist are almost empty. Wonder why. Maybe the Sherrif's department could provide advice to the AG that in order to turn down the illegal prostitution, it should be legalised.
So show me that craigslist is profiting from human traffic or is that claim just as airy as some of those in the complaint?
Human trafficking and child abuse will exist with or without craigslist. Do you think the children on the streets in various Asian countries use craigslist to advertise themselves? I think not.
But as another poster put it, through everyone (or almost everyone) using craigslist, it puts it in a place where the police can easily monitor it. Shut it down and it'll scatter to the four corners of the web - well until someone comes up with another site to fill in. The problem (child abuse) won't go away but the ability for law enforcement to easily catch it will.
How about we solve this problem with chilren by addressing the problem at its source (in the home) rather than just try to treat the affects that show up elsewhere?
Note that craigslist doesn't directly profit from advertisements, as do many other web sites, when people visit. Instead it charges people money to post in the erotic services section and has promised to donate that money to help address the problems that you are so concerned about. You could say they're taxing the adults to help the children.
Re:Read the Complaint (Score:5, Insightful)
cite one example. I peruse my local craigslist on occasion, and have even used the erotic services section quite a few times. I've never seen any child prostitution ads in there.
If they're so prevalent, there must be some posted today? something in cache somewhere? an actual ad someone could link to and say "look, a child prostitution ad! take it off!"
Unless I see some evidence, I'm inclined to think that the children are not as prevalent on craigslist as some would like us to think, and it's just a moral panic excuse to shut down a business run by adults, and only adults.
Re:Read the Complaint (Score:5, Insightful)
So you have some kind of evidence of child abuse (be it sexual or otherwise), then you have a prosecution. Congratulations, where does shutting down a section of craigslist come into this? Oh, you have no evidence of this actually happening, no actually damaged or hurt children? Then you're just another scare monger trying to stop the bleeding by covering it with a curtain.
If you really want to think of the children, maybe you ought to take all this evidence you have of child abuse to a DA's office and see if you can get the ball rolling there.
An intelligent person would want this stuff on craigslist, where it is all made into a nice easy searchable electronic database that can be easily monitored, logged, and used in court with a minimum of fuss. It looks to me like this sherrif simply doesn't understand the technology and his lawyers told him he might be able to make a quick buck suing craigslist.
Re:He didn't sue the mortgage banks (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:He didn't sue the mortgage banks (Score:3, Insightful)
Again, you're relying on the target of the writ to comply, or on the ability and (again), willingness of someone else to enforce his compliance. And again, usually this works. Sometimes it doesn't. The law is not magical, it relies on the general assent and cooperation of people, and sometimes, people don't assent and cooperate.
If the sheriff refuses to evict a tenant, and mass public opinion is behind him, who exactly do you expect to *make* him evict the tenant?
Re:He didn't sue the mortgage banks (Score:1, Insightful)
Even from a greed standpoint, that kind of crap didn't seem to make sense to me.
It's not about greed. It's about power.
The left have been yapping about greed for a century or more to distract you from their primary purpose: power and more power.
The right uses "think of the children" and "national security" for the same purpose, perhaps less successfully. Certainly more people seem to notice the power-hungry aspects of the right than the equally power-hungry aspects of the left.
None them give two pins for anyone not of their party. A plague on both their houses.
Re:Read the Complaint (Score:1, Insightful)
Well... it's a complaint, not a finding of fact. I can complain about gnomes stealing my socks, but that doesn't mean it's likely to be a fact.
Re:Prostitutes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not in any erotic services section of any US city that I've visited. Universally, the majority of the ads are for illegal services.
Which city is this?
Stupid intelligence (Score:4, Insightful)
He's stupid.
Most people in an investigative field would BEG for lists like this.
The posting gives probable cause. They can wire tap the numbers, and get the phone history. The secondary numbers that call common numbers give even more escorts, or escort services/pimps. Third level cross reference would then likely give him a good number of the working girls in the area, and regular clients. All of this would be legal.
Many law enforcement agencies are using these ads to DO the busts. They'll set up a wired hotel room, and have the girls meet them there. They'll also have officers pose as the escorts, and do the same to the Johns.
They're being spoon fed fairly reliable information. The exception would be postings by angry ex-boyfriends/husbands, who post their ex-SO picture and phone numbers. Those would be easily filtered once the phone records were given a good look over.
I don't know what idiot thought about filing a complaint against Craigslist. They should be THANKING them. Spend a couple months gathering intelligence, and then spend a weekend on widespread busts. They'd get a significant number in the process, and the rest would be scared out of business. Any remaining ones that decided to continue marketing this way would be continued easy fish to catch.
Do your job, and you've solved the problem. Cutting out an advertising source just pushes that element that you want to arrest into other fringe areas that you probably don't know about yet. Doing it right would get the vice squad brownie points from all over the place, and an increased budget. Just bitching about the advertising medium gets you nothing but a budget wasted on court costs.
Stupid people.
Re:Prostitution is not illegal... (Score:5, Insightful)
... where I live. So the Cook County Sheriff can lump it if he doesn't like it.
And this has exactly what to do with him going after crime in his jurisdiction?
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:3, Insightful)
So I have to pay the lady to have her be pleasant? Is that the point? No. If she expects me to pay, I expect something more than just conversation in return. I can have pleasant conversation with friends who don't ask me to pick up the tab.
The point is that equality requires a change in social customs. Right now, the social customs are designed for a woman being unable to get income for herself. But since that's not the case anymore, they are outdated.
Regulate and tax it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So what? (Score:2, Insightful)
Well there you go, there's your first mistake.
Re:Read the Complaint (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly - I'd wager that a decent percentage of the slashdot audience has probably at least browsed these ads before - nerds that wouldn't pick up chicks on the street are a huge target for this kind of business model - but be warned - you'd have to be crazy to respond to these ads. A large percentage of them are probably honeypots posted by authorities, and the government has full backdoor access to everything that goes through craigslist (thank you patriot act) including email addresses. I'd love to know the ratio of arrests to actual successful prostitution related business transactions through craigslist - I bet it's greater than one. Also, let's not forget that nearly every major city has a newspaper with an erotic personals section - this sort of thing is nothing new.
Re:He didn't sue the mortgage banks (Score:4, Insightful)
Since when does he have the right to pick and choose which laws he enforces?
Are you kidding me? He is just following the example set by the rest of the law enforcement agencies in the US.
The US (especially over the last 8 years) loves to make things illegal that a huge % of the population does and then they use selective enforcement to exercise their prejudiced, corrupt agendas.
Need some examples:
Picking on LGBTs [amnestyusa.org]
Selective enforcement of marijuana laws (over other drugs) [medscape.com]
Selective enforcement of drug laws in black/latino communities [contexts.org]
The DMCA [eff.org]
Re:Regulate and tax it (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish there was some chance we could get more of a libertarian govt in the US....go back to more strict reading of the constitution, and less govt. intrusions of adult lives.
While I'm at it...I guess I'll also wish for a pony.
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:5, Insightful)
You act like girls don't want to have sex. Do you know how badly most of them would love to skip the phony dinner and go straight to bed... but guys like you make them feel ashamed so they need stupid rituals to validate the affair.
Then you deprive them of any excitement by paying for dinner without strings attached, still on the thesis that she doesn't want cock, and shouldn't.
Then you wonder why she went home with "that guy"... really she was only too happy to make some "gentleman" pay for her meal, and then ditch him for what was truly on her mind.
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:2, Insightful)
So I have to pay the lady to have her be pleasant?
Actually, the reason you pay a hooker is so she'll go away in an hour.
Re:former state governor seeking stupid sheriff - (Score:2, Insightful)
It has been several decades since I lived in Chicago. One of the duties of the Cook County Sheriff back then was to create an "organized crime" diversion whenever things were getting a little too hot for any of the fair-haired boys of the Democratic political machine in that city and state. This looks very similar.
My guess is that this will go away as the hoo-hoo-rah over Senator Burris' lies about his relationship with the ex-Governor Blagojevich fade into obscurity. (Burris was seated in the US Senate after testifying that he had no contacts with Blagojevich's people and had not been involved in raising money for Blagojevich after he sought be appointed Senator, but he has since recanted on both points when confronted with evidence that he had in fact been doing both.) There was a move to have a special election to replace Burris in the Illinois legislature; I understand that died earlier today.
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:2, Insightful)
Perhaps if you start viewing woman as, you know, humans, and not masturbatory tools, you'll fare better. You might even realize that sex isn't the best thing they can provide you.
Re:Prostitutes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides... no matter what anybody tells you... there's no sex in the champagne room.
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:3, Insightful)
When I go out to dinner, the average bill for a two-up is $100 or so.
Re:w4w, h4m, p2p, y2k, ... (Score:3, Insightful)
2g1c
If you really want to mess with your head, locate 1g1c. I frikkin tops goatse. I'm still mad at my co-worker for that one...
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, I think most consensual sexual relationships are the result of people liking sex.
Re:Regulate and tax it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:All consentual sexual relationships are... (Score:4, Insightful)
You act like girls don't want to have sex.
No, I'm acting like expecting that you are trading dinner for sex is chauvinistic.
If she's into it, go for it. If she's not, acting like you got jipped means you're an asshole and should go hire a prostitute if you want an explicit barter.
If there are "strings attached" then you think you're hiring a hooker. The absence of strings does not mean the absence of sex. What the fuck is wrong with people around here?
Re:In other countries... (Score:1, Insightful)
You can be non theist, and believe that in the current social setup there is a very low probability that a prostitute really choose his or her fate freely.
And therefore accepting to use the service of prostitutes is about the same as having sex with a person that just underwent serial rape and is not is a state to wonder about one more or not.
And it is possible to be non theist and nevertheless think that what makes your life worth while is being free with free people.
And in that case you will not want to visit prostitutes.
Being afraid of ulterior ethernal punishment is not an ethical point of view.
So ethics have nothing to do with religion.
Wether you are theist or non theist only if you do a decision of being a decent human being because you sincerely want to be one can be ethical.
Being afraid of cops, human or divine is not being ethical (only practical).