Microsoft Sued Over Vista-To-XP Downgrade Fees 479
Krojack writes with this excerpt from Computerworld:
"Los Angeles resident Emma Alvarado charged Microsoft with multiple violations of Washington state's unfair business practices and consumer protection laws over its policy of barring computer makers from continuing to offer XP on new PCs after Vista's early-2007 launch. Alvarado is seeking compensatory damages and wants the case declared a class-action suit. ... Irked at having to pay a fee for downgrading a new Lenovo notebook to XP, Alvarado said that Microsoft had used its position as the dominant operating system maker to 'require consumers to purchase computers pre-installed with the Vista operating system and to pay additional sums to "downgrade" to the Windows XP operating system.'"
Paying for what ails you (Score:5, Informative)
I often hear people bitching about Microsoft's operating systems and the problems with doing business with Microsoft and its Partners. Why don't people just get a computer with a non-Microsoft operating system. Linux, Apple, Plan 9, BSD; there are plenty to choose from.
Re:Update (Score:3, Informative)
The suit has been canceled after Emma Alvarado was abducted by a mysterious, well-organized, group of mosquitoes. When asked for a comment on the strange occurrence, Bill Gates is said to have laughed awkwardly while pressing his fingertips together. More on this as it develops.
For those who don't get it: Bill Gates Unleashes Swarm of Mosquitoes [slashdot.org]
Re:Paying for what ails you (Score:5, Informative)
Because it's hard to find a computer that doesn't come with Windows at Walmart/BestBuy/etc.
You people have it wrong. (Score:5, Informative)
As a small OEM, I give my clients the option to go with either Windows XP or Windows Vista, as we sell relatively similar base models so it's easy for us to maintain concurrent deployment sets for both operating systems. This extra charge isn't Microsoft's fault.
Tied Selling is illegal in many states (Score:5, Informative)
I have not been charged extra (Score:3, Informative)
Currently, Lenovo charges the same price for Vista Business and Vista Business downgraded to XP Pro. I order this option all the time. They also offer the same price for Vista Ultimate vs. Vista Ultimate downgraded to XP Pro.
While I'm not crazy about this setup, you must remember that you are effectively buying two license. At any time, you have the right to upgrade to Vista for free. Yes, you shouldn't have to buy the Vista license, but Lenovo at least is not charging business customers anything extra at the moment.
-Dan
Re:Tied Selling is illegal in many states (Score:3, Informative)
I don't think anyone is actually required to buy XP and for most retail purposes, XP is simply unavailable.
Try to buy the old version of just about anything else. Once the manufacturer drops it, it is gone. There is no more. Try to buy a computer to run OS/2 Warp. Just try. It is gone. The proper attitude is XP is just as gone as OS/2. For some reason, Microsoft got talked into making it partially available through certain OEM channels but not retail. I'd say it is a problem with Lenovo rather than Microsoft because Microsoft isn't selling the product at all. To anyone. At any price.
Re:Paying for what ails you (Score:4, Informative)
Here you go [walmart.com]
Re:Tied Selling is illegal in many states (Score:2, Informative)
No, the issue is Microsoft released a new OS and decided to stop selling their old one. They aren't required to keep selling stuff if they release new things just because people liked the older models. It might make good business sense, but that doesn't make it a legal requirement.
The other issue is that she decided to buy a laptop from a company that doesn't provide OS-free products. That's not Microsoft's fault.
Re:And for $20 more ... (Score:5, Informative)
From Wikipedia: [wikipedia.org]
Re:And for $20 more ... (Score:1, Informative)
Also, we make very little (if any) profit on the computers we sell. Often times we sell a computer for lower than we purchased it (at a loss to us). We do this because the profit is gained from the protection plans, services, and peripherals (e.g. laptop bags and software).
And it would "hurt other sales" when that employee isn't there to offer protection plans to customers making purchases.
It'd be more likely that those who would gain from buying a clean computer are the same ones who would just buy or build their own custom computers.
Also, as a side note, I'll bet that most of the customers who decide to buy an OS-free computer are the same ones who will bring that computer in a week later for EasyTech because they botched the install. This isn't to say that there aren't some who would benefit--just that the average user isn't one of them.
Re:And for $20 more ... (Score:4, Informative)
The market for computers without an operating system is zero
Rubbish.
Even in the consumer/home market a small portion of users want bare machines - and vendors do sell them that way. Try www.pioneercomputers.com.au who will sell you just about any of their models of laptop, desktop or server with Windows, Linux, dual-boot, or no OS (try the build your own option with almost any model). Most small vendors will sell you a generic unbranded or "house-brand" PC with no OS. I can easily find many vendors who sell desktop PCs without an OS.
And as for servers, where Linux holds a significant portion of the user market, it is common to buy hardware without an OS. We do it all the time at work, because we put Ubuntu on almost all our servers now.
Re:And for $20 more ... (Score:3, Informative)
Do you have any hard figure on how much OEMs get paid for the crapware?
Dell lets you opt out of most of the crapware, anyway... at least they do when you buy through their Small Business site instead of the Home & Home Office site (which everyone should, because Dell's Small Business computers often cost like $300 less for the same configurations).
Re:Blaming Microsoft for OEM's fault (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And for $20 more ... (Score:5, Informative)
If you are going to buy pre-made computers with an operating system, what do you expect? The market for computers without an operating system is zero, so nobody sells them that way.
That's not even close to reality.
Any major company with a Microsoft site license has no need of a computer preinstalled with a Microsoft O/S. The first thing they will do with the equipment is wipe out whatever is there and install the offically approved corporate version.
The most vocal and most numerous of the Microsofties here say that the first thing one needs to do with a crapware infested preinstall is wipe it out and install from different media or from a pirated version.
Of the two work machines I have, there have been 6 microsoft license fees. 2 preinstalls (both wiped), 1 Microsoft Windows 2000 (enterprise site license), 2 Microsoft Windows XP (enterprise site license, 1 presumably an upgrade for the older box) and 2 Microsoft Vista (enterprise site license, unused as the company has not deployed Microsoft Vista). Neither of those machines run Microsoft Windows in any version today, thank God.
In Manila, you can walk into any commercial computer store and be offered a menu of choices that runs something like Microsoft Windows or Linux preinstalled and no O/S installed (Free DOS) at about a 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 ratio.
To say that there is *no* market for computers without a preinstalled O/S is disengenuous at best. Unless maybe you're suggesting that people in a 3rd world country are more tech-savvy than people in the United States. Are you?
Microsoft has built a business around selling people the same thing, over and over and over again regardless of whether it is being used or not. If that's OK with you, more power to you. Count me out please.
Re:Apple prices (Score:3, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Buffered_DIMM [wikipedia.org].
By the way I don't the OP said that Apple upgrades had reasonable prices, but the systems themselves, which is partly true. Especially if you account for all the things that they come with, applications, ports and design/robustness. Just check Sony Vaio prices up
Peter
Re:Just giver her Windows 7 (Score:5, Informative)
3dB$
You mean just 3dB. Decibels measure ratios; a 3dB difference is approximately equal to a 2:1 ratio, or a doubling, which is presumably what you meant. When decibels are used with another unit, such as your dB$, the extra unit refers to the amount that "0 dB", or a ratio of 1:1 refers to. So 3dB = double (approximately, not exactly), 3dB$ = double one dollar = $2, which is probably not what you meant. (To put it another way, 33dB$/30dB$ = 33dB-30dB = 3dB; 33dB$-30dB$ = approx $2000-$1000 = approx $1000 = approx 30dB$.) Logarithmic units can be confusing, but given that you seem to have been trying to use them to show off, I would have expected you to get them right...
Re:Apple prices (Score:3, Informative)
Apple's hardware prices have been comparable to Windows PCs for years.
Mac Pro: comes standard with 2 x 1GB sticks of memory - 800MHz, DDR2, ECC. Let's try 2 extra 1GB sticks of memory. Apple price? $500. NewEgg price for 2 x 1GB sticks of Kingston 800MHz DDR ECC memory? $67.
I said Apple hardware prices, Apple buys RAM from others and doesn't make it. And yes, I admit Apple charges more for RAM than what Newegg and others pay for it. I even had someone in an Apple store tell me that if I wanted more ram than standard then I should buy it from someone else. When I said Apple's hardware prices are comparable that's what I meant, unfortunately you have to start with Apple hardware. Take the Mac Pro and get the price. Then configure a Dell, HP, and or IBM, er Levono, to get as close to the same specs and the Apple's price will be comparable.
All of the other examples you give are of hardware made by others not Apple. Now let's compare:
Mac Pro [apple.com]
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
2GB (2x1GB)
320GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 256MB
Total = $2,799.00
Dell Precision T7400 [dell.com]
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
2GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory
320GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290
Total price = $3,738
The only part I'm not sure is comparable is the video card though both cards chosen support 2 monitors. You can however install a different card in the Mac.
Falcon
Re:Apple prices (Score:3, Informative)
Dude, those ARE the FB-DIMM prices. FB-DIMM long ago stopped being more than a few dollars off from the normal DDR2 option.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134688 [newegg.com]
Kingston 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 FB-DIMM ECC Fully Buffered DDR2 800 - $33.49 each, $66.98 total; GP quoted $67.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134862 [newegg.com]
Kingston 4GB 240-Pin DDR2 FB-DIMM ECC Fully Buffered DDR2 800 - $156.99 each, $627.96 total; GP quoted $604.
FB-DIMM memory does not invalidate his argument in any way.