Utah Mulls a Database of Bar Customers 623
sundancing alerts us to a political dustup in the state of Utah, which doesn't have bars like the rest of the country does. Instead, "private clubs" require you to fill out an application and pay a fee if you want to have a drink outside the home. While there is pressure to reform this arrangement — one argument is that it's bad for tourism — the head of the state senate recently floated a proposal to create a database of every bar patron's visits. Now Utah's governor has called that idea "almost Orwellian," adding that "it's very difficult to legislate adulthood," and its supporters seem to be backing off. The idea of requiring bar patrons to swipe their drivers licenses as proof of age is still on the table, though.
bad title (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't the story more accurately be titled "Utah stops mulling a database of bar customers"?
Religion, not adulthood (Score:4, Insightful)
This is not about legislating adulthood, it is about legislating religion. There is a difference.
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:3, Insightful)
I know it's not manly and tough but...
Lethal injection is considered humane because no pain is felt.
Civilized societies have long moved towards executions that are as respectful of life as possible, as opposed to some societies which still publicly rape and stone to death.
It's the same idea about those who abuse animals end up abusing humans, and lethal injection, which is very nonviolent, is one of the better ways to separate the death penalty from murder.
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:5, Insightful)
Nevada is less dense population wise yet has twice the murder rate of the nation and violent crime as well.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s0297.pdf [census.gov]
(And in its infinite wisdom, Slashdot is now making me wait at least five minutes between posts. in my prior experience, this will become ten and then fifteen. It happens as soon as I get one downmod. I love Slashdot where the GNAA can post as much as they want, but with positive karma, I get effectively censored.)
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean this site? [disastercenter.com] Overall, murders are very rare.
USA: 5/100,000 people
Utah: 2/100,000 people
Iowa: 1/100,000 people
Iowa has more people than Utah and doesn't have such draconian moral restrictions. In fact, they're much more liberal than Utah. Does that mean liberalism has concrete benefits in terms of murder rates?
Solutions (Score:5, Insightful)
Got an RFID tag in your drivers license? Throw it in the microwave for 2 seconds.
Got a magstripe on your drivers license? Rub it with a magnet a few times.
Got a barcode on your drivers license? Use a little fine grit sandpaper on a few blocks.
Oh, that's funny, I wonder why your reader can't read my license. Must not be working right.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought less of him. But just for being stupid enough to let his picture get taken with a drug when he has tens of millions of endorsements that could go down the drain. Crap, if I had that much money in endorsements just for being the best at moving my arms back and forth really fast (oversimplification, but the point is that it is not a real social benefit to be able to swim fast), I sure as hell wouldn't do anything to risk it.
So while smoking a joint doesn't shock me, his stupidity does. He went through this before with a DUI, he should be smarter than that.
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, I'd actually prefer the firing squad myself -- I'm afraid of needles.
But you're not afraid of a volley of bullets flying towards you?
Re:Solutions (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ob (Score:0, Insightful)
Ah. Religious slurs.
They're not as offensive to some as other kinds of bigoted speech. We can publicly and safely hate religious people in what we write and say: Mormons, Evangelicals, Catholics, Scientologists, Muslims (well, we're a little bit afraid to hate Muslims).
But if you say anything about race or sexual orientation... it's barbaric and will immediately be condemned as hate speech.
Here's a clue for you: Utah's governor, who has spoken out against this legislation, is a Mormon. There are plenty of other Mormons in Utah who think that this type of legislation is completely ridiculous and shameful.
Please keep your generalizing religious epithets to yourself.
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah - the death penalty has always been a deterrent, as proven by the lack of crime in the US.
All the death penalty has ever really accomplished is to satisfy a lust for revenge. Nothing more.
cheers,
Re:Combine with RealID and... (Score:5, Insightful)
How is swiping your license different than them carding you?
The bouncer at the door has better things to do than memorize every license that he comes across. The computer has nothing better to do.
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:3, Insightful)
Because the law can never be wrong, right?
I've never understood the argument that spending the rest of your life in prison for a crime you didn't commit is any better than being killed for a crime you didn't commit. Both are horrible and we need to take steps to ensure that they don't happen -- but I don't buy "the law isn't perfect" as a justification for eliminating the death penalty.
I've been charged with a crime I didn't commit. Mind you it wasn't a capital offense but it was a felony. The system prevailed for me when a grand jury of my peers looked at the evidence, considered my testimony and refused to indict me. This episode strengthened my confidence in our legal system (while simultaneously weakening my confidence in our law enforcement agencies, but that's another story). There is no other country on this planet where I would want to be as someone wrongfully accused.
So no, the law isn't perfect and can be wrong. But I still believe in capital punishment. When you've inflicted egregious harm on society, society has the right to put you out of our collective misery after you've been accorded due process of law.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
"Greatest Snow On Earth" and they're right.
I'd gladly pay double (and generally do!) to ski Deer Valley than most crowded places in Colorado.
I love the LDSers -- they run a clean operation and they don't let their religion get in the way of fun for tourists (I've NEVER had a problem drinking in Park City or SLC).
Re:Yeah... Ok (Score:3, Insightful)
Permanently locking someone up is equally effective as killing them
Until they kill another inmate or corrections officer. Or escape. Or get let out by some flower child judge that feels bad for them.
costs less
So justice is too expensive now?
which in the end, is why we would be sinking to the level of the criminal.
We aren't sinking to the level of the criminal because it's accepted that the state has the power to deprive individuals of life, liberty or process after according them due process of law. We have given the state a monopoly on the use of force in these situations. If you accept that we aren't sinking to the level of kidnappers by locking up convicted criminals then it seems to me that you should also accept that we aren't sinking to the level of murderers if we execute them.
Exactly! DUE PROCESS. Which is why it's so expensive and makes so little sense. In order to fulfill its obligations, the state wastes so many FTEs on the criminal that it becomes inefficient. I think we can all agree that inefficiency in Government is a bad thing. So why kill 'em? Isn't forcing someone to sit in a cell making license plates for 70 years more vindictive?
I don't think you actually read the text I quoted from the 5th amendment. The mere fact that you aren't executing them but instead depriving them of liberty for the rest of their life doesn't entitle them to less due process.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:3, Insightful)
Who are you to care about what someone else does in their own privacy? The world needs a lot more MYOB and STFU....if we each worried more about how we lived our own lives, and less about how others lived theirs, it would be a lot better place.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought less of him. But just for being stupid enough to let his picture get taken with a drug
Well, that was pretty stupid of him but in the day and age of the camera phone it's pretty hard to avoid having your picture taken. I think a lot less of the dipshit that took the picture and opted to give/sell it to a tabloid. Anybody with a half a brain could realize the likely outcome of that to a person like Phelps. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I wouldn't sell such a picture if I knew it was likely to ruin someones life/career.
not a real social benefit to be able to swim fast
Eh, it's a benefit to society in that it provides entertainment which provides rest and relaxation.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
I think much less of Michael Phelps for apologizing. He did absolutely nothing wrong.
You'd suck it up and apologize too if your livelihood was on the line....
Re:Ob (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not? Why should we not make fun of religion?
Want to do anything, anything at all and not get busted? Say: my religion says I must do it...
It is a "get out of jail" card. If we keep respecting religion as sacred and true, they will never mend.
We should respect people. People beliefs are fair game, though.
-1 Troll ... ;)
Re:Combine with RealID and... (Score:3, Insightful)
They started with cigarettes and alcohol -- next it will be soda or fast food.
Amen. I already hear folks using the argument that people with bad diets harm them by increasing emergency room visits that they have to pay for. This sort of reasoning will only get worse when we are paying for healthcare directly. I'm sorry liberals, but I don't want your charity if you think it entitles you to dictate the way I live my life.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Insightful)
New York (hardly a red state full of religious types) does something similar.
I lived in upstate NY for 6 long years and I can attest to the fact that, apart from NYC, it is basically a red state full of religious types.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Insightful)
<= 3.2% ABV is NOT beer.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:4, Insightful)
His livelihood is most certainly not on the line. He already has millions, and is either a graduate of or close to a degree at Michigan. Even if he quit swimming and dropped all his endorsements, starting a "normal" life at 23 with that backing you up is a recipe to live *extremely* well.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
What he really should do is grow a pair, and use his position as an incredible athlete to speak out against the persecution of pot smokers.
His performance in Beijing totally DESTROYS all the standard "potheads are losers who will never amount to anything" line of bullshit that we have been spoonfed for years.
He should also tell Kellogg's cereal to go fuck themselves, and seek sponsorship deals from EZ-Wider and Dominos Pizza. :)
Re:Ob (Score:5, Insightful)
circumcised is way better .... I'm glad it happened back when I can't remember it.
So how do you know it's better? The vast majority of men who have been circumcised later in life (late enough to have experienced "pleasures of the flesh" before and after) say that it was way better before. (However, even that's not a conclusive argument, since perhaps the process affects you differently later in life.)
The ladies love it!
And THAT depends where you live... in this part of the world, it'd make most girls say something like, "That looks so weird! I didn't know you were Jewish..." (most people in Europe are not circumcised unless they're Jewish)
And, to reply to your first statement last:
Dude you should try it some time
Being an irreversible process, I'd rather not chance it...
Re:Phelps poll (Score:3, Insightful)
Pot uses isn't against the rules of the swimming organization. SO I don't know if he was tested.
Doesn't matter becasue the image that is shoved down our throats is that pot smokers are lazy do nothings. Considering the amount of training it takes to become a world class athlete it blows that picture away.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully Obama follows through with his view that "we need to...decriminalize our marijuana laws". While I'm not a user I'm all for clearing our jails/prisons from harmless offenders, or saving billions from a failed 'drug war'.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:5, Insightful)
You say he was stupid to get a picture taken while holding a joint, but really what is stupider ?
A. Smoking marijuana recreationally with friends, on private time ?
B. Believing that a photo of a harmless victimless act represents a big heinous crime punishable by shame and shunning ?
If you're desperate to fight drugs, at least fight the invariably evil ones like backyard meth and crack. Those drugs actually destroy people, but with pot, the drug itself is mostly harmless, it's the naysayers who are the ones destroying lives with their near-religious bigotry.
hardly the only ones, there (Score:3, Insightful)
The biggest proponents of Yes-on-8, both by on-the-ground activism of bishops and priests, and by actual yes votes, were the Catholics, and I don't see anyone scapegoating them. Probably because they're an important voting bloc so you have to be nice to them, while the Mormons are a small enough minority that they're a useful scapegoat.