Utah Mulls a Database of Bar Customers 623
sundancing alerts us to a political dustup in the state of Utah, which doesn't have bars like the rest of the country does. Instead, "private clubs" require you to fill out an application and pay a fee if you want to have a drink outside the home. While there is pressure to reform this arrangement — one argument is that it's bad for tourism — the head of the state senate recently floated a proposal to create a database of every bar patron's visits. Now Utah's governor has called that idea "almost Orwellian," adding that "it's very difficult to legislate adulthood," and its supporters seem to be backing off. The idea of requiring bar patrons to swipe their drivers licenses as proof of age is still on the table, though.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Informative)
There are conventional bars in Utah, or at least there are things that look a lot like bars, they just are technically clubs and require you to fill out a form and pay a small "membership fee" to get a drink.
I don't know whether, like Virginia, they require the bar to also serve food, but I would bet that they do, and the ones that I went to had restaurants attached. (In the 1960's, by the way, bars in Fairfax, Virginia, also required, or at least were supposed to require, membership.)
Re:Bad for what tourism? (Score:3, Informative)
In Utah there are lots of National Parks there (Zion, Bryce Canyon, Canyonlands, Arches, Capitol Reef), National Monuments, and a National Recreation Area. Between them, they draw in something over five million visitors per year, IIRC. All are big with hikers and nature enthusiasts. Canyonlands and Grand Staircase-Escalante are also big with the mountain biking and off-road vehicle crowd.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:2, Informative)
Some Texas cities already have this (Score:5, Informative)
In Texas, cities can decide to be wet or dry. In a "dry" city, a restaurant that serves alcohol must be a "private club." It's not so much a "private club" in that there are significant membership requirements, anyone can join if they're of age and there's no membership fee or ongoing responsibilities. I'm sure it's just another way for the city to tax the restaurant - how much does it cost to get a "private club" permit?
So if you're eating out and you want to have a beer, you must present a club membership card. Most restaurants have signed up with a company called Unicard. If you sign up at one Unicard restaurant...er..."private club" then you are automatically a member everywhere that takes Unicard. Years ago you actually got a separate membership card. Now it's associated with your driver's license number. When I was waiting tables the computer would refuse to let me input a drink order until I swiped a customer's Unicard (or driver's license). I'm sure that the computer was checking with the Unicard database to make sure that the person was actually a member. Was it tracking them? I have no idea. Probably so, in case the restaurant needed to look back and prove that a certain customer was in fact a member of the club when they bought that drink. Aside from the inherent lawsuit risks of serving alcohol, the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission is known for being ruthless and handing down VERY expensive fines to the restaurant and the waiter for any infraction.
A significant difference here is that Unicard is a private company, not a government entity. I'm sure they'll be quick to share their database if asked by a court, especially if it involves "terrists" or kiddie porn.
Disclaimer: IANAW (any more). I haven't waited tables for several years and I rarely drink when I'm out. Things may be different now.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Informative)
They also limit the alcohol content of beer below a certain percentage. It's a rather strange state.
That's not actually that uncommon. New York (hardly a red state full of religious types) does something similiar. New York also prohibits grocery stores from selling wine/spirits (they can sell beer though) and liquor stores from selling beer (they sell wine/spirits).
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:3, Informative)
Nevada is only less-dense population-wise when you are looking at everything from a statewide level. Nevada is essentially one very densely populated urban area, surrounded by abandoned desert. I'm sure Utah's population isn't evenly spread out either, but this sort of crime-per capita statistic is really only valuable if you break it down by county or township.
It'll never happen (Score:3, Informative)
I live in Utah and these sorts of rumblings are a mainstay. They never pass because they're stupid, and everyone knows they're stupid, but they're a way for pols to get their name in the paper in a way they think will appeal to their constituency.
In this case, though, it appears to be backfiring. Even Waddoups' heavily-LDS district is largely rolling their eyes at this one. It probably won't damage him, though.
I DO, however, expect that if Utah deploys REAL ID driver's licenses -- the kind with chips in them -- that they'll start to require electronic age verification just because it's so much harder to forge than a driver's license. Assuming no databases are built, that's a reasonable approach to limiting under-age drinking.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Informative)
Utahn here. Here is a brief synopsis of what you can expect about drinking in Utah.
Taverns are bars that sell beer only. They do not require memberships, can only sell 3.2% alcohol content beer. Food is not required to be served. Pitchers of beer must be shared between at least two people.
Private Clubs are bars that can sell stronger beer and spirits. A membership is required, or to be the guest of a member. In practice many places don't pay a lot of attention to this requirement. Many offer a temporary membership for around $5. The average price for a year membership is $12. Only one mixed drink per person at a time can be served. Pitchers of beer must be shared between at least two people.
Restaurants. If a restaurant has a liquor license they can sell spirits and beer without requiring memberships. However, you have to purchase food at the same time. Some restaurants only have a tavern license and only offer beer pr wine.
Liquor stores are a state run monopoly. You have to go to the state package store in order to purchase wine, beer stronger than 3.2% or spirits. This is the only way to purchase these products.
I wrote this article years ago regarding drinking in Utah. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A279731 [bbc.co.uk]
Re:Bad for what tourism? (Score:2, Informative)
I know Slashdot geeks have a rep for not getting out much, but *you* really do need to get out more. :)
Utah has a huge tourist industry. Zion National Park is one of coolest places I've every been, and Bryce Canyon, Capital Reef, Canyonlands, Arches are very nice as well. The skiing in the Wasatch mountains east of Salt Lake City is some of the best in the world. There's nothing like gliding through knee deep "champagne" powder. In short the state in an incredible location for scenic beauty and outdoor activities. It's a pity that there's so many bigots there, but it's still a pretty nice place to visit.
Also, regarding your "hikers not partiers" comment - personally I like to relax with a couple beers after a hard day of hiking, so the groups are not mutually exclusive. Also a lot of the people who visit these areas never stray more than a 1/2 mile from their cars; there's still plenty to see. Then in the winter, skiers are famous (notorious?) for their drinking. So, I think that plenty of the Utah tourist are affected by these kind of rules.
Re:Out of curiosity (Score:2, Informative)
Wow, you really know nothing about Utah.
I haven't known a single mormon in Utah that lives in a "religious community" (they don't). Watch the news or read a local paper and you'll hear about rapes and murders just like everywhere else (perhaps to a smaller degree). If you are mormon and confess to such a crime to the Bishop (local religious leader) he will either attempt to convince you to turn yourself in or call the police himself. Mormons are nothing like the Amish, but that is not an uncommon claim from people who don't know any better.
Perhaps what you may be thinking of is some of the wacky religious cults that live in communities out in the desert. You know, the whole Warren Jeffs guy that was running the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ. All those kids in Texas that were taken in to custody, and the media brouhaha that surrounded it: Not mormons.
And yes, Utah has a lot of wide open spaces but most of Utah's population is densely situated along the "Wasatch Front": Provo to Ogden. Nearly 1/2 of the population of the state lives in the Salt Lake valley.
Not that you really care, since you were just trolling...
Re:Holy moly... (Score:5, Informative)
Hell, that's nothing. In Pennsylvania you cannot buy ANY form of alcoholic beverage in a grocery store, drug store, or convenience store. ALL non malt-based liquor (vodka, whiskey, etc) is sold exclusively at state-owned liquor stores. All malt-based liquor (beer, wine coolers, etc) must be purchased at a beverage distributor - though if you just want a six pack or a 40, you can get them at the local deli, but NOT a convenience store, a bit of an odd exception.
The PA liquor stores do swipe your ID through a reader if they choose to card you (the clerks are trained to use their best judgement - I used to be one in college), and I've seen a few Philadelphia-area bars do the same.
Re:"almost Orwellian" (Score:3, Informative)
Please don't talk about what Orwellian means when you clearly have never read any of his books. To say that having no bars is Orwellian is to dilute the word from it's true meaning.
In 1984, every movement of every citizen is tracked, not just in public but even in their own home. Children are bribed into spying on and turning in their parents. People are tortured for the slightest sign of dissent. Records of the past are continuously 'corrected' at the whim of the government. The nation is at constant war (which may, or may not be really happening) to keep the population in fear. Sex is stigmatized and strictly for procreation (and remember, they're constantly watching you so they'll know if you appear to enjoy it and will punish you accordingly). The very language is controlled and managed to eliminate as many words as possible, for the expressed purpose of limiting people's thoughts to what they have the words to express.
So no, having no bars is not Orwellian, even forcing people to swipe the their ID before they can drink is not 'almost Orwellian'. You could argue that it is a step in that direction, but that is a totally different statement.
Re:Mormons (Score:5, Informative)
Um - you're a little late there. "Mormons" are in pretty much every country on Earth. In the US, there are 6 million LDS church members - so one out of 50 people in the US is a "Mormon". Utah has 1.5 million LDS church members in it - so excluding Utah it is 1 out of 60.
There are 7 million members in the rest of the world - so there are actually more "Mormons" that live outside the United States than that live inside. The church is growing at 3% per year - doubling every 15 years or so.
For fun facts, the country of Tonga is 46% Mormon. The country of Samoa is 36%. Utah is 72%. Hawaii is 5%.
What rock have you been under?
Re:Combine with RealID and... (Score:3, Informative)
I'm sorry liberals, but I don't want your charity if you think it entitles you to dictate the way I live my life.
...
Liberalism: a political ideology that seeks to maximize individual liberties.
If they are telling you what to do, they ain't liberal.
Re:Wait... (Score:1, Informative)
God - finally someone who knows a bit about Utah tourism.
I've lived in SLC for years and years - you can't beat the terrain parks at Brighton, the trees at Snowbird, the open runs of Solitude, the pretentiousness of Alta (heheh), the catered to feeling you get from Park City, The Canyons, or Deer Valley...
The list goes on and on.
As for the summer months - every ski resort I just listed has mountain biking trails - lifts make all the pesky uphill pedaling a thing of the past.
And - I can do it all drunk if I want to. You can ski right up to the damn bar a lot of the time! Visitors simply need to pay a one-time fee of a few dollars, which often comes with a free shot or a beer anyway. Or, since I live here, my visitors get in free because I'm a member anyway - and a year membership is typically $10 to $15, again, often with a free pitcher at renewal time. It's not that bad - though I'd still welcome anything to make it easier.
And to comment on the LDS side of things - I grew up Mormon. Wanna see my horns? Geez people - grow up. Anybody doing any slight comparative research into the faith will find that the beliefs aren't all that far off of any other "Christian" faith. We still celebrated Christmas, Easter, and all the other holidays Christianity stole from pagans - the same as the rest of the country.
I'll never understand why everyone thinks Mormons are crazier than any other religious person. It's still the same zombie Jesus rhetoric.
Visited once, had no problems drinking (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Holy moly... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Holy moly... (Score:1, Informative)
In Utah, it's measured by weight, not volume, so it comes out to about 4% ABV. Still low for some beers, sure, but I really doubt you are going to notice a difference if you are buying a case of bud lite at the supermarket. Beer lovers here in Utah buy beer brewed by the many local breweries that do really good things with that "limitation" or they just get "heavy" beers at the state liquor store or in a restaurant or brewpub that is allowed to sell them. Or they just brew their own.
Re:Phelps poll (Score:1, Informative)
Nope, at least 58% self-identify [pewforum.org] LDS.
One of Utah's local papers did some research into LDS demographics [newsbank.com] (unfortunately, the article's only available from a pay archive, but the abstract in the search results contains the meat of the article).
The church itself [lds.org] claims 72% (certainly some of this claim is showmanship, but still...).
So, no. There are not as many non-members as there are members.
Re:Holy moly... (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, many states have the state owned liquor distributors. COSTCO is currently suing the states of Washington and Oregon over it. California does not have such a law, and it was awesome to see half gallons of Smirnoff for much less than what a 5th of smirnoff costs in Oregon. Good luck in Oregon trying to find liquor after 9pm! Or on a Sunday!
Re:Phelps poll (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Phelps poll (Score:3, Informative)
No, the claim is based on membership records. If people do not ask for their names to be removed from church records, they are still considered LDS, even if they don't go to church. There's nothing "showy" about that. It's a bit like being an American expatriate who retains U.S. citizenship. So not all of the 70% are active, but they are still members.
Re:It's his JOB! (Score:3, Informative)
Gandhi was fighting against laws made in England that were imposed on people in India. King was fighting for a people whose ancestors were forcefully taken from their land to be enslaved in another continent. Against which laws is Phelps fighting?
The alternative to obeying laws is the law of the jungle, the strongest will prevail.
Only if the lawmaker is a tyrant. You should use the ballot box before using the ammo box.
Yes, they had great sense [cornell.edu]