Senator Prods Microsoft On H-1B Visas After Layoff Plans 574
CWmike writes "US Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) told Microsoft this week that US citizens should get priority over H-1B visa holders as the software vendor moves forward on its plan to cut 5,000 jobs. 'These work visa programs were never intended to allow a company to retain foreign guest workers rather than similarly qualified American workers, when that company cuts jobs during an economic downturn,' Grassley wrote in a letter sent Thursday to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer. The letter asked Microsoft to detail the types of jobs that will be eliminated and how those cuts will affect the company's H-1B workers."
Reader theodp adds, "On Friday, Microsoft coincidentally announced it would postpone construction of a planned $500 million data center in Grassley's home state of Iowa, although work on data centers in Chicago and Dublin will continue."
Republican? (Score:3, Interesting)
Surprised a Republican did this. These guys are more likable when not in power, I guess.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Interesting)
Remember: the number of jobs is not fixed. A million unemployed but well-educated nerds will probably lead to the next google, Apple or whatever. If you throw these people out of the country, those companies and their jobs are just created elsewhere.
This is Major Tom to ground control. . . (Score:5, Interesting)
I was laid off from my programming job and I have been looking for a job for a year now, and I keep getting passed on. I've even lowered my wage expectations and my references, former managers and coworkers, have a lot of good things to say about me. I am constantly applying through newspapers, monster.com, dice.com, etc. Why is a H1-B holder getting precedence over me? And, why are these companies laying off Americans in favor of keeping the H1-Bs? We have a problem, Houston.
What a joke (Score:2, Interesting)
What's the point? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This is Major Tom to ground control. . . (Score:5, Interesting)
Have you actually thought about WHY you are not getting hired? And fixing those issues?
My wife is a manager and I get to see the other side of things. They don't explicitly go out with the notion, "oh let's not hire X, but hire Y."
They are just thankful that they can get anybody with skills.
Right now there is a REALLY big problem, and a friend of mine says it best.
"Those that you want to hire are not hirable, but those that are hirable you don't want."
He said this because he noticed that there are many who calls themselves programmers, but are 2000 leftovers who got into it because you could make "lots and lots" of money. Hiring a programmer that you want to keep is these days very difficult.
Be careful what you wish for. (Score:4, Interesting)
I think bringing in foreign tech workers is fine. The problem is sending them back home.
By the logic that says that bringing foreign tech workers into the US is bad for US tech workers, a software engineer would be better off looking for a job in Flint, Michigan than San Jose, California, because there are so many software engineers in San Jose. The problem with this reasoning is that the number of software engineers in San Jose attracts companies there, and those companies create jobs. Having other engineers around means you get a smaller proportion slice of a much, much larger pie. And the very best engineers don't just consume jobs, the create new industries.
The real fault with the H1B program is that it is structured in a way that encourages companies to offshore jobs. You bring a cohort of junior engineers in from India, have them gain experience in your field and product, then you kick them back to Banagalore, a ready made outsourcing team. Making employers shed H1Bs will only accelerate the loss of US jobs, giving US workers a larger proportion of a much, much smaller pie.
Re:This is Major Tom to ground control. . . (Score:3, Interesting)
Bullshit.
"Those you want to hire" for a skilled job, have responsibilities (family, mortgage, student loans, etc) that mean they can't work for the shit wages that you can pay to an H1-B holder.
Both the Republicans and Democrats are to blame for this, by the way. Democrats got us into the whole "free trade" bullshit (GATT/WTO/NAFTA/etc) that made it far cheaper for businesses to relocate overseas AND made it easier for big "multinational" corporations to snap up US companies. Republicans pushed economic policies that encouraged more and more big companies to snap up the smaller ones - look at how many companies "Altria group" owns for example, and refused to properly protect and secure our border even when American was screaming for it do be done (gee, thanks Prez Shrub). The result? Former "entry level" jobs (within $1-2 of minimum wage, etc) that used to be done by highschoolers/college kids to work their way up have all been taken over by semipermanent, paid-under-the-table-for-half-minimum-wage illegals and higher-level jobs (except for really high "management" elite) are constantly getting benefits cut and wages sliced (or at least not nearly keeping up with inflation).
Seriously, look at the situation.
On the one hand, you have an American worker, who's got student loans to pay back, who has a social life in America, probably a family and kids.
On the other hand, you have a H1-B holder who has no family, no kids, no significant roots, and thus not only can be paid $20k or more less than the American, but can also more easily be made to work 60-80 hour weeks of unpaid overtime because nobody will tell him he's being abused and is less likely to go to the authorities about it or the courts because if he loses the job, he loses the visa too.
I know people in several large companies that see the job rolls, interview people, send in recommendations, and then watch perfectly qualified American applicants get passed over for yet another H1-B every day.
Re:They will not (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Interesting)
These H1B holders are well-educated.
Except for the ones that lied about their education and experience: http://www.businessweek.com/print/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db2008108_844949.htm [businessweek.com]
When I worked for FNMA I wondered how most of my H1 coworkers had no previous knowledge of computers, and why even though they supposedly had degrees in EE they had no knowledge of any basic principles of that field. They were very popular with management because they always said yes, and were continually afraid of 'causing problems'. The ones I talked to also made 20-30% less than I did.
Certainly not the case everywhere, but I'd say H1B1 visa holder = undereducated indentured servant in far too many places.
Nope (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:2, Interesting)
I myself have never seen a "fat lazy American" at my business,
This is due to great Management, we don't hire them.
You are deluding yourself if you think there is a racial/national difference between you and Americans.
I've lived and worked overseas, guess what? You have fat lazy Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese and more.
Face facts, it's a cost analysis, no more than that.
I myself would be offended and try to do something about a company that thinks my work deserves lower pay versus my co-workers due to my nationality.
Seems we need to think on a global level as members of the human race vice difference based upon language, melanin, and areas defined by a grease pencil oh so many years ago.
*I redirected my /dev/urandom to create this post.
Re:This is Major Tom to ground control. . . (Score:3, Interesting)
"Those that you want to hire are not hirable, but those that are hirable you don't want."
Having a hard time wrapping my head around this one.
Interesting to see the manager mind at work here though. Wouldn't it make sense to hire the person with the correct skillset? You know - like actually read resumes, and talk to people and make decisions based on that?
I send my resume off to apply for various jobs, but I highly doubt anyone even reads it. They probably just look at how well I filled out the application, or if I spelled everything properly.
People automatically assume "Chinese or Indian = Brilliant worker we can hire for 20-35k a year" - H1B or not - and since most of these companies have hundreds of open req's in India they'll take whatever they can get.
Its an economic miracle if true - and I think we should be wary of anyone who thinks otherwise.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:4, Interesting)
On a side note, I thought the US was build on people coming from bad situations to live the American dream, you guys sure have changed your mindset lately.
If that was the case, there wouldn't be any complaints, because then they wouldn't be getting paid less. It's the fact that they're only temp workers that get paid up to 23 percent less [ddj.com] than Americans in the same positions that cheeses people off. Level playing field--fine. Unfair playing field where management lies about not being able to find qualified personnel and then turns around and pays substantially lower salaries--not good.
Re:Republican? (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends on where the layoffs are. Maybe it is in sections of Microsoft with no H1-B visas, after all I don't think they have hired marketing and HR guys through that program.
It could also be true that _Microsoft_ needed more H1-B visas, because other companies use them in quite a bad way and there are no visas left for the fairly few people MS do want to bring over. The issue isn't that terribly black and white after all, and got tons of twists and turns.
I am happy on the other hand that the senate is looking into the whole H1-B visa thing, and I would hope that US media would do the same. I do not hold an H1-B myself, nor am I a US Citizen, but I have gotten my I-130 approved and I am itching to go over (to those that don't want to google, I-130 == I am married to a US citizen).
I don't like either of the extremes, i.e. no foreigners here nor let's get poor people with fake degrees and pay them shit. I think the system needs to be fair and honest, which it isn't right now. The same with the huge population of illegal immigrants. A short term work visa for jobs that won't be filled by US Citizens would greatly help a lot of now illegal immigrants that can temporarily work in the US and send money home. Hopefully that can give a boost to their home country (money, skills) and have them improve their situation. People who are forced to move because of the situation in their home country needs help, where they are, as we all need freedom and the right to happiness. Not just US citizens.
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Interesting)
>>>Actually, it's none of the senator's business.
I agree. Therefore the government should immediately revoke all foreign VISAs, and assume a role of non-interference when it comes to labor: "You say you want to hire foreigners?" Bill Gates: "Yes." Congress: "Too bad. We won't help you import non-americans; find a different solution to your labor shortage."
Re:Preferential Economics (Score:1, Interesting)
Because it is not a free market in action; the H1B visa program effectively allows corporations to employ indentured servitude on foreign workers to lower wages for an entire industry. Everybody loses.
Re:Republicans are typically pro-American (Score:3, Interesting)
"Pro-American"? What is that even supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that all Democrats are anti-American and enter politics with the sworn goal of destroying the USA?
It's not a question of being for or against America or Americans. Both sides want America to be a strong and prosperous nation. The difference is in how they think that will be achieved. Do you focus on the very real needs of individual Americans, with the possible consequence of lengthening the economic troubles -- or do you try to strengthen American companies (possibly at the cost of American jobs in the short term) in order to get the economy back on track, at which point the employment market will improve for everyone?
It's an interesting question, and "No more immigration! American jobs for American workers!" is not a useful answer. Drop the jingoistic propaganda bullshit and focus on serious economics, please.
Re:Republican? (Score:3, Interesting)
BillG's response might be "OK, I'm outsourcing half of Redmond to China, India, and Vietnam, and laying off 20000 in the US. Care to give me a different answer?" Even if it is an empty threat (despite the silliness in MS processes, there is a lot of tribal knowledge in Redmond that can't be easily duplicated), the congresscritters will stand up and take notice.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Republican? (Score:3, Interesting)
BillG's response might be "OK, I'm outsourcing half of Redmond to China, India, and Vietnam, and laying off 20000 in the US. Care to give me a different answer?"
Sure - MSFT pays tariff and import taxes atop their corporate income tax, and the US Government mandates an immediate switch to Open Source and ODF as their file format standard for all gov't agencies and departments.
That's the problem with gamesmanship against the gov't (any government)... the gov't has the means to really screw your day when you start issuing ultimatums. Just ask MSFT how it's going with the EU right now if you want a comparison.
Re:Republican? (Score:3, Interesting)
Govt.reply OK, to compensate for the loss of taxes, we the govt. will stop lobbying the rest of the world to enforce software patents etc. Enjoy your Lindows, Winduls, and whatever verbatim copies with a slight name change the world will use.
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft just let 1400 workers go from their Licensing division in Reno, NV. Those are almost entirely non technical staff and would fall into the "financial services" folks they said they would lay off. It's also extremely unlikely there were any workers in that portion of the layoffs that had an H1-B.
Now, I would agree with the senator that if two people are being considered for a layoff and one has an H1-B and the other is a citizen, the H1-B should be let go. The reason being that Microsoft and the other tech companies argued that they desperately needed the cap on H1-B's to be increased as they couldn't find skilled workers in the US to fill the positions. At a time of layoffs, in the situation I described, that would obviously not be true any more.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:3, Interesting)
...I have to basically sign an affidavit that I will pay the same rate to the foreign worker as a similarly qualified US worker, and I have to swear that I can't find anyone in the US to fill the job.
Employers who abuse the H1B system [slashdot.org] should be heavily fined (revenue going to H1B employee backpay and unemployment compensation for displaced citizens.) HR managers who authorized the abuse should find themselves out of a job, if not in jail. We can turn a blind eye to such abuse during boom times but now that the economy is damaged, the blame should not pass on to the abused foreign worker. Blame lies squarely with the abusive company. H1B is designed to backfill specialized skills. Two decades in the IT industry working across a variety of environments has convinced me that most job posts for N years using X framework/language/application/OS are shams. The fact that a recent change in EEOC labor laws encourages this practice. Here is how it works:
Company X needs a unix expert but they don't want to pay for one. So they find a particularly obscure newspaper and advertise that they are looking for 29-31 years of experience using Java 1.7 on RedHat RHEL 21. They get a number of (irritating) domestic applicants who've used Java 1.6 on OSX, Solaris or Ubuntu. They throw these in the bin and hire the H1B person, underpaying them.
For the non IT person, it's almost the equivalent of a taxi firm only hiring drivers who have experience driving 2001 Ford Galaxy vans with the 5.0 Liter V8 engine.
We should have a national website which advertises jobs which are about to go to an H1B applicant. Post it there for a month with all employee/employer correspondence logged and then I'd be happy to hand the job to a person from anywhere. H1B can work to keep jobs in the country. If it isn't abused it is much better for our economy than allowing a company to relocate or outsource.
Re:Republican? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's interesting.
I applied to Microsoft several times as an engineer, but they never even called me. I would have been happy to take a chair, rather than force them to import "Azid Thmbingam" from overseas. Especially since I was unemployed at the time.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Republican? (Score:2, Interesting)
"The last democratic president BALANCED THE BUDGET."
The President doesn't set the budget, Congress does; and Congress at the time was controlled by... uh... Republicans. I believe most of the record deficits under Bush came from a Democrat-controlled Congress.
And, in any case, the idea that 'Clinton BALANCED THE BUDGET' is nonsense; the US national debt increased every single year that Clinton was in the White House. The Republicans didn't want to point that out because they wanted to take the credit too.
Re:Republican? (Score:3, Interesting)
If Microsoft wants to move to india (or better! China) and live with their business laws then I applaud them.
However, if they wish to live in nice safe houses in seattle, then I think the voters in america have a say in how they do business.
Executives in india and china do not make as much as executives in the united states and they are not sentenced to death for selling tainted products.
You take the good with the bad.
Of course, another solution would be to allow them to use foreign labor and set a 90% tax on their profits and use it to provide free services to american citizens.
Re:Republican? (Score:2, Interesting)
The point of the H1-B visa was not to get cheaper workers. It was to address a (falsified) shortage of qualified workers.
You aren't making any sense. Why would anyone "falsify" a shortage of qualified workers if not to get cheaper labor?
(FYI, I do believe that there was a shortage of quality IT workers, its just that if you believe there was a shortage, your statement makes no sense).