Microsoft Knew About Xbox 360 Damaging Discs 583
Kelly writes "An unsealed document in a Washington lawsuit filed last week at Seattle, Microsoft was well aware that the Xbox 360 was prone to damaging game discs even before the console was introduced in November 2005. Microsoft had three solutions for solving the issue, but all three solutions were rejected due to technical concerns or on the basis of cost. Microsoft settled on a cost-free fourth solution: a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual, which essentially placed the blame on users instead of the hardware." The scratching-disks problem was mentioned a few years back, too. I wonder whether more people would prefer a slight discount on the price of a console to the ability to reorient it while a disk was playing inside.
Oh Noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
The motion says that Microsoft knew that when the Xbox 360 was reoriented with a disc playing inside, the disc could be damaged.
I gotta side with Microsoft on this one.
An xbox 360 is not something you pop a battery and headphones into and take jogging. If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer? Sony, Dell, Philips, NEC, you're next! Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual, which essentially placed the blame on users instead of the hardware."
No. Vista's UAC is shifting blame on the user. The warning in the manual is merely a well-intentioned courtesy reminder which calls into question the perceived intelligence and common sense of its users. They might as well have included a warning like, "Do not drop into bathtub".
If you don't like the way your 360 sits then put down the pizza slice, wipe the snauce off of your fingers, properly shut down the console, carefully reorient it as desired, then power it back on and resume gaming. I know it takes a few more seconds than just toppling it over with one hand while Gearing-of-War wtih the other, but the extra effort will be worth it. Trust me on this one.
Check Engine (Score:2, Insightful)
I have a little light on my dashboard that is labeled "Check Engine". Ostensibly it is supposed to turn on when an excess of O2 is detected in the car's emissions. However, it also seems to turn on just about every 20K miles or so. It costs $400 to turn off.
Is this "feature" by design? Or is it a bug?
Wow, the MS fanboys with mod points will be busy (Score:1, Insightful)
Those MS fans with modpoints will be busy today. What with the recent news about websites actively infecting PCs through known IE vulnerabilities and now this, there will be so many postings that show MS in a bad light to mod down.
Get going boys!
Um... (Score:5, Insightful)
Fixed that for /.
Wow, a complete business plan. (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 1: Sell discs.
Step 2: Pay lawmakers to make it illegal to copy discs.
Step 3: Make a machine that damages discs, forcing users to buy replacement discs.
Step 4: Profit!
Fricking seedy. If I'm buying the media, I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with it. If I'm buying the data, they should replace the media for free. They can't have it both ways.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Could have been prevented for minimal cost (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently a $0.50 component would have sorted out all these problems [arstechnica.com]... I'm aware that after a lot of sales this translates into profit, but seriously... this is a very short-sighted corner to cut.
In reality, people move things (Score:5, Insightful)
An xbox 360 is not something you pop a battery and headphones into and take jogging. If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer? Sony, Dell, Philips, NEC, you're next! Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
But laptops are also designed to suspend when you close a lid - and I hate to break it to you but there are plenty of times I have shifted a laptop around substantially while burning a disc. Usually that worked out just fine.
Furthermore, laptop users hardly ever even use discs - either you use it once to load software, or you are burning a disc where the cost of failure is that you have to burn another $0.10 disc. Not quite the same as having a console where failure means you are out $60... and you almost always have a disc in the drive even if you are often doing things on Live instead of playing the game disc you have inserted.
The 360 is, like it or not, a consumer electronic device - and that means it needs to be robust, to where almost no use of it outside the extremes can cause failure. Simply moving a console while it's on is not that extreme, nor if you look at a lot of people's gaming setups is it even that uncommon. Blaming users for thinking it's a device like others they are used to instead of a delicate piece of computer equipment that will brook no touching while in operation, is an absurd accusation.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly, because it's not your responsibility to put it out of reach of small children and pets, and in the event of earthquakes, everyone's first concern is not scratching their game discs... after all, no other system would scratch a game disc during an earthquake, right?
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
Consoles are handled by kids (Score:3, Insightful)
Does anyone know if any of these problems were responsible in any way for drive failures that caused the "disc read error" message?
Re:Check Engine (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, you lose geek points. :p ... the proper procedure is:
---
Go buy an OBDCII code reader
Read the REAL error code
Reset the Check Engine Light
Determine based on the code if you actually need to spend $$ at mechanic
Profit!
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
And I have to disagree. No one took their xbox jogging. First, you set up the straw man that disc damage only occurs when people flip an xbox from side to flat while turned on. That is untrue.
1) This occurs when simply moving the xbox, not flipping it. Considering every single computer, DVD player, or cd-based console (ps1, ps2, dreamcast) I've owned has allowed me to move it with a disc in it, this is not "normal" cd drive behavior.
2) This occurs when the xbox screws up. It scratched the hell out of my PGR3 disc when we had a power failure. Luckily, Xbox support was nice enough to replace it. I've never had that happen with a console, dvd player, or computer before either.
3) The console is not stable in the upright position. If you're going to advertise the product that way, it needs to be stable enough to be used in that manner. Tower computers are stable, the 360 is not. A slight tug on a cord (which you can imagine happens during gameplay) and that thing will topple over easily possibly breaking itself.
Microsoft didn't get the hardware right. They *did* get support right, and have paid dearly for their hardware mistakes. Let's see if they're better at it the 2nd time around.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not good for any disc drive to sit side ways. Even the PS2 had some issues with scratched discs which is why I think they quit mentioning to users that they can set it up vertical and later models were built so you couldn't use it vertically.
But at least Sony had the decency to give users a stand to widen the base and make it more stable which helps for some problems related to disc drives on their side. MS did not do this and instead puts in a shitty little warning hoping that makes up for their poor design.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:1, Insightful)
If my 360 ever scratches a disc I just reburn another copy. Thanks NME mod-chip!
lolz
Re:Isn't this usually a concern (Score:5, Insightful)
This is plain bullshit.
Any modern tray loading CD drive clamps the disc between the spindle and a bearing in the top of the case. This disc is suspended several millimeters away from any solid surface. Short of creating enormous G-force on the disc by rotating the drive at a high level of acceleration, the worst you would expect from your average cheap-ass tray loading drive is to scratch the very outer edge of the disc where there isn't any data anyway. People with CD/DVD drives mounted in external USB cases move them around with discs in them all the time, and those drives weren't even designed with portable mounting in mind. When making a toy that is likely to be used by children who will knock it over, it doesn't seem unreasonable that Microsoft would include something along the level of the bottom end of the reliability spectrum rather than establishing a new low.
The only reason people are defending Microsoft on this is because they love their XBox, and they feel an irrational need to defend it in public lest it lose market share to a competitor's console.
Re:After having listened to my 14 year old son;.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now to add to this, I have yet another reason not to ever buy one. And I'll print out a copy of the page and attach it to the wall in my son's room. He's not going to like it but thats the breaks.
You can find any number of reasons to justify or not justify a purchase of an Xbox 360. If you can't afford it, then sure, those are the breaks. That's one thing all kids have to come to terms with. But it sounds like you're trying to clutch for something else to give as a reason, because you simply don't want this hardware product in your house.
Unfortunately the PC games market is in a major decline, the wii is a gimmick, and the PS3 is a stark disappointment. If your son is going to play modern console games, and interact socially with his peers on that level, not to mention play online with them, he's going to want this console - and it won't be about the hardware, it will be about the titles.
Due to their incredible screwups, MS offer a reasonable out of the box warranty with 360s. The hardware is not a concern. If you son treats it like crap, that's his bag. If you can't afford it, man up and say so. If you simply don't want to buy him one, let him know that. Maybe he'll think you're being an ass. I'm not sure you're not, seems like a valid opinion to me. Honesty will bear you out, though.
Re:Wii got it right (Score:5, Insightful)
The slot-loader is gentle on the disc,
While the Disc is playing, yes, while insert or ejecting, NO...
Slot loaders use rollers to grab the disc, and so many things can happen with this 'direct' contact.
- A dirty roller can scratch a disc rather easily, pitting it.
- A 'glossed' roller can fail to properly grab the disc and spin on the surface of the disc
- A user pushing against the disc when eject or pulled against when inserted will allow the rollers to rub the disc surfaces.
A good example is slot loaders in cars that get a lot of dirt and dust, CDs in the car take a lot of damage from slot loading players because of the rollers.
PS There are a few good ways to clean the rollers, and even de-gloss older rollers on slot loaders. If you have a car unit that fails to properly take or eject disc you can do a few things on the road even that will fix the problem.
- Get a Slot loader roller cleaner - rare, but around.
- Make your own.
Use a 'printable' silver CDR, (the printable side has a light texture). Apply alcohol or even spit if you are on the road to the printed side of the disc and insert it upside down. If necessary hold the CDR to force the rollers to 'spin' on the disc. The texture will clean and de-gloss the rollers. Repeat until it works.
You can also use a black matte CD Label on a CD to get the same effect, but the paper could pull off and jam in the unit, so only use for a light cleaning.
(Then again, what do I know? Microsoft did try to cut corners wherever possible to create the system as cheap as possible.)
Well not as much as Microsoft. The odds of a unit being flipped while a Disc is spinning happens how often to the average user? But aged or dirty rollers will start killing discs and have a shorter lifetime.
Do you honestly think this is stuff MS didn't consider? Do you honestly think MS couldn't have gotten a 'good' deal on a custom slot loader design if they thought it was the best?
Gamers tend to be less careful with their disc, borrow discs, and when high even insert discs with peanut butter and jelly on them. This destroys front loaders rather fast and adds to their ability to harm disc with just a bit of crusted dirt or PB&J on the roller, your discs may continue to work, but you are slowly pitting them, and if the roller 'spins' on the disc, you are getting scratches.
There may be a good front loader solution, but I have not seen it, as both sides of the Disc are vulnerable and a device that demands contact with it present a constant risk.
MS made what they thought was the right decision, with a lot of 'smart' people considering the pros and cons.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer?
The fact that most other tray-loading drives don't scratch your discs when you move them around would probably take care of that for the other manufacturers. Along with holding the disc tightly between a spindle and a bearing, tray loading drives employ bumpers that Microsoft left out on their drives to save $0.50/console [arstechnica.com]. Since the other drive makers include said bumpers, and don't scratch discs, I don't think they need to worry too much if Microsoft is held liable for what their product does.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:2, Insightful)
I gotta side with Microsoft on this one.
That was my first instinct as well, then I RTFA. This is not just scratched discs, and it is not blatantly shaking your hardware. It sounds like even fairly small shifts of the console can cause the discs to be "deeply gouged". That's not just normal scratching, that's an issue with the hardware.
And Microsoft's actions are a little questionable here. They were aware that it was a problem, so they considered several technical solutions; they decided that all the technical solutions were too costly, so they just put in a disclaimer. That's fine.
Then they added in a "disc replacement program" at $20 a pop. Additional revenue stream?
Clarification (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
I have yet to have a game disc get scratched inside my PS2 or my Wii. I've moved the Wii around while playing, and I know I've moved the slimline PS2 (I'm pretty sure I've even accidentally pulled it off the table without seriously damaging anything). I don't know how they fare in an earthquake, but as you said that's not my primary concern. However, it takes far less than an earthquake to get an Xbox360 to destroy a game disc.
When I got my xbox360 (before this problem was widely known), I had taken it to a friend's house and moved it somehow (I don't exactly recall.. .maybe reorienting, maybe just tipping it to doublecheck connections) and it scratch the disc to the point that it wouldn't play anymore. This was the first game I had, within days of getting the system, and it pretty much cut a circular groove into the CD. It wasn't a minor scratch; it was gouged. I could see and feel the scratch. And I was annoyed as hell that I couldn't play anymore until I went to the store and exchanged the "broken" game disc.
Toys R Us was very nice about exchanging the disc. If I had been out another $50 to replace a game I had only played once, I would be much less sympathetic to Microsoft's problem, and probably would have returned the console instead (and bought a PS3).
Now that I know about the problem, I'm super careful about it. The xbox360 is certainly more prone to scratching than any other device I've ever had. I've never seen a scratch in a disc like the one it made. If Microsoft knew about it (they certainly know now!), I would hope they've fixed it in the current builds, because its a serious design flaw.
Re:I own a scratched disk (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:4, Insightful)
I disagree. "It's the user's fault" is the same tactic Toyota tried to use when some of their engines started dying at 30,000 miles. Toyota blamed the user for not proper maintenance, but the truth was that the users had changed oil every 6000 miles as required. The flaw was not the user; the flaw was the engine overheating & the oil turning to sludge. Toyota refused to do anything until the U.S. Consumer Protection Agency threatened a class-action lawsuit, at which point Toyota chose to honor the engine warranty.
The same is true with Microsoft: They are unfairly blaming users, but users have done nothing wrong. They have NOT moved their Xboxes, and yet discs are still getting scratched.
Just as there was a fundamental flaw with Toyota engines, their is a fundamental flaw with Microsoft's disc loader.
Re:Isn't this usually a concern (Score:5, Insightful)
You forgot gyroscopic force, which can be powerful enough to bend the disc as it turns, regardless of how it is clamped (CDs are flexible). It can then momentarily contact the front lens on the optical pickup, resulting in a scratch. Gyroscopic force is produced by the angular momentum of the spinning disc wanting to spin in the same plane while the axis is being rotated.
Some physicist will probably correct me on that, but I know it's a powerful force.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:3, Insightful)
I can understand a company choosing not to redesign an entire product to prevent something like damage from movement from happening... but we've got spontaneous scratches happening too. It seems like a couple cents worth of foam and glue would be a pretty cheap fix on a several hundred dollar machine.
I'm not MSFT basher, I just hate that the 360 is a huge piece of crap. I just want to play my games and watch my netflix.
Re:Suprised? (Score:1, Insightful)
Really? Is this what it's come to, /.? Seriously, re-read this:
"I own a 360 and have scracted a disk doing exactly what you are warned not to do."
followed by
"no 360 games were purchased in my household due to the state of anger I was holding towards Microsoft."
Are you KIDDING me?! I would tag this "asinine" were the option available.
Console price does not vary like this (Score:2, Insightful)
You write that, but you know that neither this nor the OP is true. You see consoles selling in quantums of 199, 249, and 299. Any variation is set largely on customer perception. There is no slight increase in price to, say, 302. Console price has little to do with minor variations in parts costs.
If you really want to correct the OP, then talk about the profit margin. In that case, the customer doesn't care.
Re:In reality, people move things (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:2, Insightful)
Normally I'm all for reaming MS. If you're Xbox is dying because of heat issues and can only run in the standing position that's a different problem and yes IS MS's fault. But scratching a game disc cause you're tango-ing with your Xbox cause of a geek-gasm over GoW2...not really their problem.
It would be like expecting a hairdryer to deflect a bullet. Good thought. And with enough engineering would be damn cool. But a hairdryer was meant to dry hair. Not deflect bullets. An Xbox was meant to run games in a stationary position. Not a moving one. Deal with it.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
"Quality": an old-fashioned word (Score:5, Insightful)
If manufacturers are going to treat customers as beta testers, and hide from them when the product fails, there are only two recourses, and I recommend both: stop buying the company's product, and file a class-action lawsuit.
Even if it is fashionable to claim it, Capitalism does not mean "cheat the people".
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
An engine requires routine maintenance to ensure trouble free operation. That maintenance routine is described in the operators manual.
What sort of maintenance is required for an optical disk drive?
As someone pointed out, consoles are not portable. Standard operation would not involve moving the item while it was on. Would you sue a hard drive manufacturer because the heads on your hard drive crashed when you dropped your laptop on the table? No. Would you sue sony for scratching your overpriced blueray disc because it got scratched when you moved the unit while it was on? NO.
Here's a better analogy.
you produce a product which has an intended use. During development someone says "hey if I do this while I am using it, it breaks". Its not designed to do that. nor is that use consistent with the intended operational parameters. This is not a design flaw unless the use which produces the problem is similar enough to the intended use to presume a high incidence of mis-use.
This is really about a lawyer who wants a piece of microsofts pie. Class action lawsuits while capable of forcing a change on the business being sued, do little more than fill the pockets of the lawyers on both sides.
How about suing for common sense? Is it the blender manufacturers fault that you dropped the spoon into it while it was on? (no blendtec rebuttals please)
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:2, Insightful)
P.S.
>>>"hey if I do this while I am using it, it breaks". Its not designed to do that.
The Xbox is not designed to be used in a sideways, vertical position? Sorry but that's false. It IS designed to be used in that position and yet still scratches discs, therefore it's an engineering flaw.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:1, Insightful)
If I can't reorient the device, then why is it called by Xbox 360?
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
Just as it was found in the Toyota case that the customers were not lying ("We did change our oil every 6000 miles!"), I suspect the Microsoft customers are not lying either. There might be some, but I bet the supermajority of them are telling the truth just as the Toyota customers were telling the truth. Microsoft is simply refusing to listen, just as Toyota refused to hear they built flawed engines.
Ultimately it required the action of the U.S. Government to force Toyota to listen to customers instead of assuming they are no-good, filthy liars, and it will likely take the U.S. to force Microsoft customers to be heard too.
Re:Wii got it right (Score:3, Insightful)
When the problem is that users are using the system in a vertical configuration as advertised by the manufacturer, you can bet your ass that it's a manufacturing defect! (More specifically a design defect, but we won't quibble.) Microsoft tells everyone that their system is just fine and dandy when placed in an upright position. Yet the slightest vibration (anyone have subwoofers? cabled controllers? hard wood floors?) can unseat the disc and cause scratches.
The problem has nothing to do with being flipped around, and everything to do with a flaw in the system's design.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:5, Insightful)
As an engineer who has worked through the conceptual, prototyping, type certification, QA/QC, limited manufacturing to full scale manufacturing stages, this should have been corrected back in the QA/QC testing stage and hardware revisions made to the product.
Sadly what has happened over the past few decades is an increased reliance to turn over known problems to "risk managers" who assess the probability of the problem, the impact, the cost to make the design modifications vs. the cost of either "passing the buck" to the customer and then paying off the small minority who press the issue.
The worst nightmare for risk managers is when a problem becomes known to the wider community of customers. Suddenly, their profit calculus flips over on it's head and it turns into fiasco's like this one. I would like to say that this is a rare phenomenon but look at the auto-makers. How many recent model cars have paint peeling off the primer in giant scabs? How many car tires does it take to fail before the cost of paying off the dead or maimed becomes great enough to offset those decisions by risk management?
What is lost is usually not assigned a dollar value. Intangibles like "goodwill" or "customer loyalty" suddenly plummet. Your once loyal customers begin to write their congressmen not to bail out the auto industry because they have made crap for decades.
As engineers, most of us love the challenge of making the most optimal solution to any problem. If we find a real challenge we want to come up with elegant solutions. It is intensely frustrating to be overridden by "bean counters" when you know that a few more days, a few more weeks, another round of testing, can make a product better.
It is the corporate mindset that it is OK to make something with known defects as long as you get your money up front. Executives, stockholders and middle managers all take their compensation packages and cash out as quickly as possible and jump to another ship that they can soon strand in the Saragossa Sea of quick bucks and lack of vision.
Re:This is NOT Microsoft's fault (Score:3, Insightful)
you're assuming everyone who has had scratched discs did something to cause it and that's not the case.
I made no assumptions. I quoted the article exactly.
I've seen people complaining about problems with scratched discs while not moving the system
Perhaps, but that is not what this article is about, nor is it what the law suit claims.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:4, Insightful)
You can't have your cake and eat it too! Either the people are moving their consoles and Microsoft knew about the problem, or people are not moving their consoles and Microsoft didn't know that this problem exists, thus rendering this whole slashdot story idiotic.
Re:Oh Noes! (Score:3, Insightful)
It isn't designed to be REORIENTED IN MID USE.