An anonymous reader writes in with an article from a Texas paper on the NSA's new facility in San Antonio. "America's top spy agency has taken over the former Sony microchip plant and is transforming it into a new data-mining headquarters... where billions of electronic communications will be sifted in the agency's mission to identify terrorist threats. ... [Author James] Bamford writes about how NSA and Microsoft had both been eyeing San Antonio for years because it has the cheapest electricity in Texas, and the state has its own power grid, making it less vulnerable to power outages on the national grid. He notes that it seemed the NSA wanted assurance Microsoft would be here, too, before making a final commitment, due to the advantages of 'having their miners virtually next door to the mother lode of data centers.' The new NSA facility is just a few miles from Microsoft's data center of the same size. Bamford says that under current law, NSA could gain access to Microsoft's stored data without even a warrant, but merely a fiber-optic cable." The article mentions the NRC report concluding that data mining is ineffective as a tactic against terrorism, which we discussed a couple of months back.
The article mentions the NRC report concluding that data mining is ineffective as a tactic against terrorism Anyone wanna bet that Obama won't do a damn thing about these obvious attempts to spy on American citizens?
This is about catching other types of criminals like people distributing images of child sex, people discussing marijuana growing, people discussing anti-government ideas (i.e. like the LP), and so on. It's a way to circumvent the Constitution's requirement for a search warrant.
I don't think that the data mining will be dedicated on spying american citizens, since NSA is probably trying to spy the whole world electronically. Of course, american citizens will be the first victims, as usual. And this is called 'beta-testers' in Microsoft terminology;-)
Anyone wanna bet that Obama won't do a damn thing about these obvious attempts to spy on American citizens?
I find your paranoia (and that of many other Slashdotters) interesting. Why are so many Americans so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them? NSA's mission is foreign intelligence. That means that most of what they do is about spying on people who are not American citizens. Believe it or not, the world out here is really quite big. Did you know that there are actually more non-Americans than Americans on the Internet? There's plenty of non-American data for NSA to mine, if data mining is what they want to do.
You are not the centre of the universe. You are not the only thing your government cares about. You are not being spied on with satellite mind-control rays. Get over yourselves and drop the conspiracy crap, please.
Or, you know, go and collect loads of guns and hole yourself up in a log cabin in the mountains while you wait for the Rapture. They can't eavesdrop on your communications if you're only communicating with the Lord!
(Oh noes! I have disagreed with teh groupthink! Negative mods coming in 3... 2... 1...)
"Why are so many Americans so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them?" "Why are so many Canadians so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them?" "Why are so many Brits so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them?" "Why are so many Aussies so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them?" "Why are so many...."
Because they swap data, personally that hardly makes me ce
I find it interesting that the linked "article" is actually an opinion piece from an "alternative newsweekly". It makes a lot of assumptions and unwarranted logical leaps; long on paranoia and short on facts. In any event, here's bit of history, with the important parts in bold. I doubt many people will be interested in what the leaders
The problem is that according to testimony by engineers at the co-operating telecom facilities, the surveillance technology intercepts all traffic, not just requested traffic. So the NSA is intercepting domestic communications between citizens of no interest, without a warrant. That is in direct violation of the law. Develop a system that intercepts only the communications of interest, obtain a warrant for those streams that need it, and all will be will. Continue the dragnet approach and people will continue, rightfully, to protest the crime.
That's an impressive response. Almost half your response is a straw man though, as I never made any statements about foreign surveillance. I never objected to foreign surveillance, just domestic surveillance which doesn't meet warrant requirements. So basically our only disagreement is where that requirement begins.
I don't care whether Mr. Klein knows the workings of the NSA equipment or not. And neither should you. As testified, all communication is being routed through the equipment. Refute that. Don't
The once Senator & future President has expressed a desire to shut down some of the most egregious abuses of power that Mr. Bush came up with. But the difference between Camp X-ray, warrantless wiretaps of phone calls, and monitoring of online traffic is a sliding scale of outrage - many more people care about Gitmo than about the wiretaps, and many more people care about the wiretaps than online monitoring. Like everything else in life, it's about ordering your priorities.
I agree, but let's not forget the system he had in place before the election and how that helped him. The first question I had after he was elected was what will he do with this massive communication system he has built? Seems he intends to keep using it, which I think is a step in the right direction.
I see. So what you're saying is that the one hand pushes us 5 toward authoritarianism and the other pulls us back 2 or 3. It seems to me that this has been going on since the 60s, or earlier. Frankly, I'm a bit tired of this arrangement, and would feel foolish for cheerleading the 2 steps back portion of the dance now that the pattern has been established so thoroughly.
If, once in my life, I saw 6 steps taken back, I'd perhaps begin to cheer again.
America's top spy agency has taken over the former Sony microchip plant and is transforming it into a new data-mining headquarters
Sorry in advance, but I went ahead and read (some of) the article. Anyway, I'm having trouble believing for sure that this facility is a datacenter. Considering it's located at the site of a previous chip fab, it makes sense to me that it would stay a chip fab.
The only source that says this will be used for datamining isn't even the article author, but rather the author of a book who hasn't worked for the NSA for 25 years. These are quotes from this book:
No longer able to store all the intercepted phone calls and e-mail in its secret city, the agency has now built a new data warehouse in San Antonio, Texas," writes author James Bamford in the Shadow Factory, his third book about the NSA. "Costing, with renovations, upwards of $130 million, the 470,000-square-foot facility will be almost the size of the Alamodome. Considering how much data can now be squeezed onto a small flash drive, the new NSA building may eventually be able to hold all the information in the world."
So just what will be going on inside the NSA's new San Antonio facility? Bamford describes former NSA Director Mike Hayden's goals for the data-mining center as knowing "exactly what Americans were doing day by day, hour by hour, and second by second. He wanted to know where they shopped, what they bought, what movies they saw, what books they read, the toll booths they went through, the plane tickets they purchased, the hotels they stayed in... In other words, Total Information Awareness, the same Orwellian concept...
The new NSA facility is just a few miles from Microsoft's data center of the same size. Bamford says that under current law, NSA could gain access to Microsoft's stored data without even a warrant, but merely a fiber-optic cable.
What the Microsoft people will have will be just storage of a lot of the email that is being sent. They keep this email -- I don't know why -- and there should be some legislation saying how long it should be kept," said Bamford in a phone interview last week. "The post office doesn't keep copies of our letters when we mail letters; why should the telecom companies or the internet providers keep copies of our email? It doesn't make sense to me.
Given the history and function of the the NSA, it probably isn't going to be doing data mining, or anything else that they actually SAY it's going to be doing.
How's this for paranoia:
It's likely that the NSA cut a deal with Microsoft decades ago to allow a back door into any system running MS products. The Chinese now manufacture most of the computer hardware and are working to include hardware based, OS-independent back doors into as many systems as they can. Since a back door built into a chip is almost
Yes, the Chinese [wikipedia.org] certainly make a lot of computer hardware, but those aren't quite the chinese you were thinking of. Not to mention the Thai, the Singaporians, the Germans, even the French and the Americans who do also manufacture a lot of your computer parts.
A backdoor for the NSA in microsoft products is not unfathomable; if they were determined they'd do it. Then again, SELinux is funded by the NSA, so I don't quite know how that all fits in...
If any business needs yet another reason to stay away from SaaS, this is the one to pay attention to.
Businesses and their IP are becoming increasingly important. Any time your business IP crosses onto someone elses network, it's susceptible to snooping either by corporate espionage or now government eyes.
If your company has a market advantage caused by proprietary information, SaaS is not for you. Why else would the NSA be shacking up next to a Microsoft data center?
I wouldn't be too concerned with your business-confidential data leaking into the private sector via some unscrupulous NSA employee (who have a higher bar to employment I would hope, than say a TSA employee).
I'm much more concerned about the NSA collecting data about foreign nationals who happen to be using whichever SaaS app they happen to be snooping, and that's ontop of all the feature creep that could end up being used to abuse US citizens.
I wouldn't be too concerned with your business-confidential data leaking into the private sector via some unscrupulous NSA employee (who have a higher bar to employment I would hope, than say a TSA employee).
"Rogue" agents are not the problem. Sanctioned industrial espionage is the problem.
In theory they only do it against foreign corporations, but as multinationals become the norm, that line is becoming increasingly less meaningful. The ultimate result of such policies is likely to be spying against the competitors of the currently favored multinationals.
"Rogue" agents are not the problem. Sanctioned industrial espionage is the problem
You got that right. Here is another "small" example - to the tune of 6 billion, with a 1.3 billion side show - all old news:
July 11, 2001: European Parliament Report: Echelon Data Provided to US Corporations Glyn Ford.Glyn Ford. [Source: British Labour Party]The European Parliament releases its final report on its findings about the secretive US surveillance program known as Echelon. The report, two years in the making, exhaustively details many of Echelon's surveillance capabilities, and lists many of Echel
This may or may not be relevant but government personnel have a really cavalier attitude towards corporate IP. It's an extension of how they look down upon the vendors and contractors who actually make most government operations "work." I recently had a customer get pretty ugly when I refused to give him software he hadn't licensed (just because I can get license-free versions of anything my company produces)...they expect "hookups" all the time, and you just know they will throw that shit up on the torre
Any time your business IP crosses onto someone elses network, it's susceptible to snooping either by corporate espionage or now government eyes.
I'm not sure your business critical data is the real risk. Like a lot of things, it's the unintended consequences that may have bigger implications. If other countries are afraid of communications flowing through US relays being monitored, whether that fear is legitimate or not, they may be tempted to utilize more advanced encryptions schemes or develop relays that don't route through the US.
Sort of like the laptop confiscations by TSA. Some companies stopped coming here to do business. That probably wasn't the only reason, but for a few it was the last straw. Those that did come were sudden converts to advanced encryption and off-site file storage.
I think there's a certain level of trust that used to be there that the US could be trusted with your data because no one could access it without a warrant. Probably not the protection they imagined but still a reasonable assurance. Take that away and nothing really separates us from the most heavy-handed and tyrannical governments on the planet.
Ultimately, I think that's the greatest blow to the US from the 6 years of right wing rule. The realization that another Bush could rise up and trample on our ideals and flout the law with little real consequence and even get enthusiastic support from a substantial minority of the population. Suddenly nothing is beneath us. Spying on friend and foe alike, unilateral military action, seizure of bank funds and property without due process, indefinite imprisonment without access to a lawyer, torture, racial profiling...nothing is out of bounds if we feel the justification is there. We can no longer be trusted to respect the rule of law. A perception we have, unfortunately, worked hard to deserve.
The US will never do anything to dislodge Microsoft from the throne. The intelligence value of having Microsoft products in a monopolistic position all over the world is far too important. You don't squander that just to please some customer rights hippies at home.
I would have thought being near a Google data center would be more valuable, with the huge amount of traffic, and the indexing that comes through Google.
Maybe Google has better practices in terms of security of their data centers?
Perhaps Google raised questions about the constitutionality of the no-warrant data searches while MS simply rolled over and asked for some really hefty 'administrative fees'.
Or simply tap all the lines into the building (or perhaps on the national grid). Just because YOU and the general populice does not know, does not mean that NSA does not.
MSIE getting a button on the toolbar that says "Report as Terrorist site"
And MSN Hotmail getting a new link next to contacts that says "report contact as terrorist.
Also, the list of possible threat sources was just expanded to include slashdot.
Rumor has it that certain editors of slashdot and other blogs may be conducting attacks against various industry players by linking to them ( something the terrorists call "Slashdotting" the victim site)
by Anonymous Coward
on Sunday December 07 2008, @03:03AM (#26018427)
Sony wasn't there that long. They got it from AMD. Anway, the NSA has been "moving in" for more than a year. It was almost a fort before, and it certainly is now. They even taken over the public road that ran to its north. I'm on the hill, about a mile northwest of there, and can see and hear it at night. It's also close to the Southwest Research Institute (they did the Columbia wing test that demonstrated the hole could be caused by the foam insulation), which is on the other side of Loop 410. I'm sort of surprised they moved in there, though. Lots of better places farther out. San Antonio used to have five military bases: Fort Sam Houston, Lackland AFB, Kelly AFB, and the smaller Brooks field, and Randolf AFB (nearby). Kelly and Brooks are gone. AT&T used to be headquartered here but most of it moved to Dallas earlier this year (think of room 614a). Mm, maybe that's why AT&T left - NSA was moving in.
I was Googling to see if other company HQs of interest were in the area and came across the AT&T one. It seems that the major pipe AT&T was probably using before wouldn't be too hard to be had. Seemed the timing a bit too convenient.
Microsoft's data under today's laws "without a warrant" is simply false... unless Microsoft voluntarily cooperates. And the article did make it sound like they were voluntarily cooperating...
which all adds up to yet another reason to boycott Microsoft and use Linux or OS X, and Open Source business software.
During the civil war the slaves developed a method of communication that went unnoticed except by those who knew about it. They would sing song in the fields that woudl help to spread the word regarding teh undrground railroad.
Today common conversation communication can as well be used where there really is not anything to decipher. Language and its abstraction work by attaching meaning and only work as well as the argeed upon meaning by those using teh abstraction. It doesn't matter what meaning is attached so long as those using it understand what is being communicated
Everyone has heard of double speak, where what is communicated is meant to be perceived by the public one way but internally the very same words mean the opposite of what the public perceives. and this is just one example.
There is a saying, "locks as for honest people" meaning here if some dishonest group wanted to communicate without concern for NSA data mining, they could do so easily.
However, considering the massive amounts of data that is transfered from voice to digital on a daily or hourly basis and what the limits we have in computing power, its simple not possible to data mine for the terrorist threats from terrorists who want to avoid exposure and use such common conversation meaning dishonesty.
But it is very possible, very probable, and very reliable that such data mining be used to determine the attitudes of mass population mindsets and mindsets of population sections as well as spying on targeted US citizens that might influence such population in a direction counter to the "why determine the populations mindset and changes in it?" The unsuspecting American public is so easily influenced by the media so by knowing the overall attitudes of the American public and using the media to influence American attitudes, you have a feedback loop of CONTROL.
To properly address terrorist threats is to simply remove the reasons any terrorist group could play off of, that they won't be able to gain a following.
The World Trade Center was attacked on two different dates. The NSA had to know it was a target and why. It was because of the effects of the trillion dollar bet [pbs.org] in south East Asia. Even Ted Turner publicly said 9/11 was an act of desperation and he'd know because his CNN News did a story on the effects as did also ABC. Follow the Money is the reality here.
This was avoidable but caused by greed. And on the other hand there is What The World Wants [unesco.org] that shows that we do have the manpower, knowledge and not only the natural resources but the finances to remove reasons for terrorists to gain a following. And even more important, the question of: Why is this not being done?
Given the death and torture imposed upon innocent people during the Spanish inquisition and the fact Galileo was exonerated so very very late (1992 where it only really was to serve the church not this innocent but long dead person) and the fact that Indonesia by CIA records is 88% Muslim, its clear that religion is an excuse both ways. An excuse to use by the bad, be the bad being believers or non-believers. But 9/11 was about money, wrongful World Stock Market manipulations backed by political controlled military, hence the Pentagon and probable White house targets. It was about money not religion, regardless of what you call such evil dishonesty as happened in the stock market.
But if you wanted to get a very accurate view of the general population attitudes for such a media feedback loop of CONTROL , then what the NSA is doing with data mining will clearly work.
Remember that little spat over the Total Information Awareness project back in 2001? You know, the one where after a lot of public pressure Congress tried to de-fund the program?
Thanks NSA, for giving us the irrefutable evidence that, indeed, Microsoft is DIRECTLY involved in spying on America.
Spend your dollars wisely, America. Getting(and keeping) Microsoft OFF your computer, entirely, now directly equates to keeping the NSA off it as well.
People are used to organized crime, but terrorism is a relatively new concept in America; people are more afraid of Al Qaeda than they are of the Hell's Angels, so fighting terrorism takes priority.
I'm not saying it's the right way to look at things, but that's the way most Americans do.
The American people, as a whole, are happy to spend more money on fighting al-Qaeda.
The American people, as a whole, are not happy spending more money on fighting organised crime.
The American government, as a representative democracy, spends money roughly where the people want it spent, i.e. on terrorism.
If you think the government is doing the wrong thing, then it is your duty as a citizen to stand up in public and explain why. If you make a persuasive argument, then other peop
How are your math skills? One of the top in nation? NSA wants you. If you want a job doing sysadmin, then you can work for one of the big gov. contractors and they will put you in various locations. Of course, you will need top secret clearance.
The good news is that this datacenter is just ONE of their many. I am surprised that this news got out.
Terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
The article mentions the NRC report concluding that data mining is ineffective as a tactic against terrorism
Anyone wanna bet that Obama won't do a damn thing about these obvious attempts to spy on American citizens?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
data mining is ineffective as a tactic against terrorism
Don't be silly. Everyone knows terrorists don't use encryption..
Re:Terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't about terrorism.
This is about catching other types of criminals like people distributing images of child sex, people discussing marijuana growing, people discussing anti-government ideas (i.e. like the LP), and so on. It's a way to circumvent the Constitution's requirement for a search warrant.
Parent
Ask ELIOT SPITZER if they're spying on us.... (Score:2)
A political enemy, phone records, bank records and a SQL query.
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Even better would be to require that all laws have sunset clauses, and can't be re-upped more than 30 days before they are to expire.
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I don't think that the data mining will be dedicated on spying american citizens, since NSA is probably trying to spy the whole world electronically. ;-)
Of course, american citizens will be the first victims, as usual.
And this is called 'beta-testers' in Microsoft terminology
Re:Terrorism? (Score:4, Insightful)
I find your paranoia (and that of many other Slashdotters) interesting. Why are so many Americans so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them? NSA's mission is foreign intelligence. That means that most of what they do is about spying on people who are not American citizens. Believe it or not, the world out here is really quite big. Did you know that there are actually more non-Americans than Americans on the Internet? There's plenty of non-American data for NSA to mine, if data mining is what they want to do.
You are not the centre of the universe. You are not the only thing your government cares about. You are not being spied on with satellite mind-control rays. Get over yourselves and drop the conspiracy crap, please.
Or, you know, go and collect loads of guns and hole yourself up in a log cabin in the mountains while you wait for the Rapture. They can't eavesdrop on your communications if you're only communicating with the Lord!
(Oh noes! I have disagreed with teh groupthink! Negative mods coming in 3... 2... 1...)
Parent
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"Why are so many Canadians so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them?"
"Why are so many Brits so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them?"
"Why are so many Aussies so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them?"
"Why are so many
Because they swap data, personally that hardly makes me ce
If anyone claims to care about this at all... (Score:3, Interesting)
...they would do good to read at least this portion of a speech by Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell [dni.gov] at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government just last week.
I find it interesting that the linked "article" is actually an opinion piece from an "alternative newsweekly". It makes a lot of assumptions and unwarranted logical leaps; long on paranoia and short on facts. In any event, here's bit of history, with the important parts in bold. I doubt many people will be interested in what the leaders
Re:If anyone claims to care about this at all... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's an impressive response. Almost half your response is a straw man though, as I never made any statements about foreign surveillance. I never objected to foreign surveillance, just domestic surveillance which doesn't meet warrant requirements. So basically our only disagreement is where that requirement begins.
I don't care whether Mr. Klein knows the workings of the NSA equipment or not. And neither should you. As testified, all communication is being routed through the equipment. Refute that. Don't
Re:Terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
'Why are so many Americans so certain that everything their government does is an attempt to oppress them? '
Six thousand years of historical evidence about governments.
Parent
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Exactly. If I had mod points, I'd mod you up.
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Why would he? I am sure it is a great idea now that he will be President and the Democrats have a majority in congress:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/12/04/feinstein/ [salon.com]
It won't be shut down because there's no outcry (Score:2)
Re:It won't be shut down because there's no outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
The once Senator & future President has expressed a desire to shut down some of the most egregious abuses of power that Mr. Bush came up with.
I am highly skeptical that he'll do anything of the kind. I hope I'm wrong.
-jcr
Parent
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Maybe he ignores it, maybe not, but it sure is an interesting shift in presidential policy to actually bother setting such a thing up.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
I see. So what you're saying is that the one hand pushes us 5 toward authoritarianism and the other pulls us back 2 or 3. It seems to me that this has been going on since the 60s, or earlier. Frankly, I'm a bit tired of this arrangement, and would feel foolish for cheerleading the 2 steps back portion of the dance now that the pattern has been established so thoroughly.
If, once in my life, I saw 6 steps taken back, I'd perhaps begin to cheer again.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
America's top spy agency has taken over the former Sony microchip plant and is transforming it into a new data-mining headquarters
Sorry in advance, but I went ahead and read (some of) the article. Anyway, I'm having trouble believing for sure that this facility is a datacenter. Considering it's located at the site of a previous chip fab, it makes sense to me that it would stay a chip fab.
The only source that says this will be used for datamining isn't even the article author, but rather the author of a book who hasn't worked for the NSA for 25 years. These are quotes from this book:
No longer able to store all the intercepted phone calls and e-mail in its secret city, the agency has now built a new data warehouse in San Antonio, Texas," writes author James Bamford in the Shadow Factory, his third book about the NSA. "Costing, with renovations, upwards of $130 million, the 470,000-square-foot facility will be almost the size of the Alamodome. Considering how much data can now be squeezed onto a small flash drive, the new NSA building may eventually be able to hold all the information in the world."
So just what will be going on inside the NSA's new San Antonio facility? Bamford describes former NSA Director Mike Hayden's goals for the data-mining center as knowing "exactly what Americans were doing day by day, hour by hour, and second by second. He wanted to know where they shopped, what they bought, what movies they saw, what books they read, the toll booths they went through, the plane tickets they purchased, the hotels they stayed in... In other words, Total Information Awareness, the same Orwellian concept ...
The new NSA facility is just a few miles from Microsoft's data center of the same size. Bamford says that under current law, NSA could gain access to Microsoft's stored data without even a warrant, but merely a fiber-optic cable.
What the Microsoft people will have will be just storage of a lot of the email that is being sent. They keep this email -- I don't know why -- and there should be some legislation saying how long it should be kept," said Bamford in a phone interview last week. "The post office doesn't keep copies of our letters when we mail letters; why should the telecom companies or the internet providers keep copies of our email? It doesn't make sense to me.
That's a big wall of quot
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Given the history and function of the the NSA, it probably isn't going to be doing data mining, or anything else that they actually SAY it's going to be doing.
How's this for paranoia:
It's likely that the NSA cut a deal with Microsoft decades ago to allow a back door into any system running MS products. The Chinese now manufacture most of the computer hardware and are working to include hardware based, OS-independent back doors into as many systems as they can. Since a back door built into a chip is almost
Re: (Score:2)
Clever plot but I do believe you're wrong.
Yes, the Chinese [wikipedia.org] certainly make a lot of computer hardware, but those aren't quite the chinese you were thinking of. Not to mention the Thai, the Singaporians, the Germans, even the French and the Americans who do also manufacture a lot of your computer parts.
A backdoor for the NSA in microsoft products is not unfathomable; if they were determined they'd do it. Then again, SELinux is funded by the NSA, so I don't quite know how that all fits in...
SaaS? (Score:5, Insightful)
If any business needs yet another reason to stay away from SaaS, this is the one to pay attention to.
Businesses and their IP are becoming increasingly important. Any time your business IP crosses onto someone elses network, it's susceptible to snooping either by corporate espionage or now government eyes.
If your company has a market advantage caused by proprietary information, SaaS is not for you. Why else would the NSA be shacking up next to a Microsoft data center?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
And what exactly would the NSA do with your company's proprietary information that would hurt your market advantage?
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I wouldn't be too concerned with your business-confidential data leaking into the private sector via some unscrupulous NSA employee (who have a higher bar to employment I would hope, than say a TSA employee).
I'm much more concerned about the NSA collecting data about foreign nationals who happen to be using whichever SaaS app they happen to be snooping, and that's ontop of all the feature creep that could end up being used to abuse US citizens.
Re:SaaS? (Score:5, Interesting)
I wouldn't be too concerned with your business-confidential data leaking into the private sector via some unscrupulous NSA employee (who have a higher bar to employment I would hope, than say a TSA employee).
"Rogue" agents are not the problem. Sanctioned industrial espionage is the problem.
In theory they only do it against foreign corporations, but as multinationals become the norm, that line is becoming increasingly less meaningful. The ultimate result of such policies is likely to be spying against the competitors of the currently favored multinationals.
Here's one article about how Echelon was used for industrial espionage [indianexpress.com] - there are plenty more about the NSA and other agencies that are not Echelon-specific either.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Rogue" agents are not the problem. Sanctioned industrial espionage is the problem
You got that right. Here is another "small" example - to the tune of 6 billion, with a 1.3 billion side show - all old news:
July 11, 2001: European Parliament Report: Echelon Data Provided to US Corporations
Glyn Ford.Glyn Ford. [Source: British Labour Party]The European Parliament releases its final report on its findings about the secretive US surveillance program known as Echelon. The report, two years in the making, exhaustively details many of Echelon's surveillance capabilities, and lists many of Echel
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This may or may not be relevant but government personnel have a really cavalier attitude towards corporate IP. It's an extension of how they look down upon the vendors and contractors who actually make most government operations "work." I recently had a customer get pretty ugly when I refused to give him software he hadn't licensed (just because I can get license-free versions of anything my company produces)...they expect "hookups" all the time, and you just know they will throw that shit up on the torre
Re:SaaS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Any time your business IP crosses onto someone elses network, it's susceptible to snooping either by corporate espionage or now government eyes.
I'm not sure your business critical data is the real risk. Like a lot of things, it's the unintended consequences that may have bigger implications. If other countries are afraid of communications flowing through US relays being monitored, whether that fear is legitimate or not, they may be tempted to utilize more advanced encryptions schemes or develop relays that don't route through the US.
Sort of like the laptop confiscations by TSA. Some companies stopped coming here to do business. That probably wasn't the only reason, but for a few it was the last straw. Those that did come were sudden converts to advanced encryption and off-site file storage.
I think there's a certain level of trust that used to be there that the US could be trusted with your data because no one could access it without a warrant. Probably not the protection they imagined but still a reasonable assurance. Take that away and nothing really separates us from the most heavy-handed and tyrannical governments on the planet.
Ultimately, I think that's the greatest blow to the US from the 6 years of right wing rule. The realization that another Bush could rise up and trample on our ideals and flout the law with little real consequence and even get enthusiastic support from a substantial minority of the population. Suddenly nothing is beneath us. Spying on friend and foe alike, unilateral military action, seizure of bank funds and property without due process, indefinite imprisonment without access to a lawyer, torture, racial profiling...nothing is out of bounds if we feel the justification is there. We can no longer be trusted to respect the rule of law. A perception we have, unfortunately, worked hard to deserve.
Parent
This is why (Score:2, Insightful)
The US will never do anything to dislodge Microsoft from the throne. The intelligence value of having Microsoft products in a monopolistic position all over the world is far too important. You don't squander that just to please some customer rights hippies at home.
Microsoft is the mother lode? (Score:3, Insightful)
I would have thought being near a Google data center would be more valuable, with the huge amount of traffic, and the indexing that comes through Google.
Maybe Google has better practices in terms of security of their data centers?
Re:Microsoft is the mother lode? (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe Google has better practices in terms of security of their data centers?
Well, for starters, they're not running Windows...
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In other news (Score:5, Funny)
MSIE getting a button on the toolbar that says "Report as Terrorist site"
And MSN Hotmail getting a new link next to contacts that says "report contact as terrorist.
Also, the list of possible threat sources was just expanded to include slashdot.
Rumor has it that certain editors of slashdot and other blogs may be conducting attacks against various industry players by linking to them ( something the terrorists call "Slashdotting" the victim site)
odd place for NSA (Score:4, Interesting)
Sony wasn't there that long. They got it from AMD. Anway, the NSA has been "moving in" for more than a year. It was almost a fort before, and it certainly is now. They even taken over the public road that ran to its north. I'm on the hill, about a mile northwest of there, and can see and hear it at night. It's also close to the Southwest Research Institute (they did the Columbia wing test that demonstrated the hole could be caused by the foam insulation), which is on the other side of Loop 410. I'm sort of surprised they moved in there, though. Lots of better places farther out. San Antonio used to have five military bases: Fort Sam Houston, Lackland AFB, Kelly AFB, and the smaller Brooks field, and Randolf AFB (nearby). Kelly and Brooks are gone. AT&T used to be headquartered here but most of it moved to Dallas earlier this year (think of room 614a). Mm, maybe that's why AT&T left - NSA was moving in.
Movie and series rights (Score:2)
Movie rights.
There's got to be a series in that too.
There's too much officialdom going on and it warrants an expose of some sort.
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I was Googling to see if other company HQs of interest were in the area and came across the AT&T one. It seems that the major pipe AT&T was probably using before wouldn't be too hard to be had. Seemed the timing a bit too convenient.
The Laws of Conservation (Score:3, Funny)
The Center should open about the time Bush moves back to Texas, so the Law of Conservation of Intelligence will hold.
The statement that the NSA could "access" (Score:5, Insightful)
which all adds up to yet another reason to boycott Microsoft and use Linux or OS X, and Open Source business software.
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Underground railroad communications. (Score:5, Interesting)
During the civil war the slaves developed a method of communication that went unnoticed except by those who knew about it.
They would sing song in the fields that woudl help to spread the word regarding teh undrground railroad.
Today common conversation communication can as well be used where there really is not anything to decipher.
Language and its abstraction work by attaching meaning and only work as well as the argeed upon meaning by those using teh abstraction.
It doesn't matter what meaning is attached so long as those using it understand what is being communicated
Everyone has heard of double speak, where what is communicated is meant to be perceived by the public one way but internally the very same words mean the opposite of what the public perceives. and this is just one example.
There is a saying, "locks as for honest people" meaning here if some dishonest group wanted to communicate without concern for NSA data mining, they could do so easily.
However, considering the massive amounts of data that is transfered from voice to digital on a daily or hourly basis and what the limits we have in computing power, its simple not possible to data mine for the terrorist threats from terrorists who want to avoid exposure and use such common conversation meaning dishonesty.
But it is very possible, very probable, and very reliable that such data mining be used to determine the attitudes of mass population mindsets and mindsets of population sections as well as spying on targeted US citizens that might influence such population in a direction counter to the "why determine the populations mindset and changes in it?" The unsuspecting American public is so easily influenced by the media so by knowing the overall attitudes of the American public and using the media to influence American attitudes, you have a feedback loop of CONTROL.
To properly address terrorist threats is to simply remove the reasons any terrorist group could play off of, that they won't be able to gain a following.
The World Trade Center was attacked on two different dates. The NSA had to know it was a target and why.
It was because of the effects of the trillion dollar bet [pbs.org] in south East Asia. Even Ted Turner publicly said 9/11 was an act of desperation and he'd know because his CNN News did a story on the effects as did also ABC. Follow the Money is the reality here.
This was avoidable but caused by greed. And on the other hand there is What The World Wants [unesco.org] that shows that we do have the manpower, knowledge and not only the natural resources but the finances to remove reasons for terrorists to gain a following. And even more important, the question of: Why is this not being done?
Given the death and torture imposed upon innocent people during the Spanish inquisition and the fact Galileo was exonerated so very very late (1992 where it only really was to serve the church not this innocent but long dead person) and the fact that Indonesia by CIA records is 88% Muslim, its clear that religion is an excuse both ways. An excuse to use by the bad, be the bad being believers or non-believers. But 9/11 was about money, wrongful World Stock Market manipulations backed by political controlled military, hence the Pentagon and probable White house targets. It was about money not religion, regardless of what you call such evil dishonesty as happened in the stock market.
But if you wanted to get a very accurate view of the general population attitudes for such a media feedback loop of CONTROL , then what the NSA is doing with data mining will clearly work.
This seems awfully familiar (Score:2)
Read up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office [wikipedia.org]
Remember that little spat over the Total Information Awareness project back in 2001? You know, the one where after a lot of public pressure Congress tried to de-fund the program?
Well, gee... (Score:2)
Thanks NSA, for giving us the irrefutable evidence that, indeed, Microsoft is DIRECTLY involved in spying on America.
Spend your dollars wisely, America. Getting(and keeping) Microsoft OFF your computer, entirely, now directly equates to keeping the NSA off it as well.
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i see this is the new "MSA" they've been talking about
Not the CIC [wikipedia.org]?
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I'm sure there's a distro for that.
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Yes, but it's produced by the NSA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selinux [wikipedia.org]
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This is called "democracy":
If you think the government is doing the wrong thing, then it is your duty as a citizen to stand up in public and explain why. If you make a persuasive argument, then other peop
Always (Score:2)
The good news is that this datacenter is just ONE of their many. I am surprised that this news got out.