Boycott Novell Protesters Manhandled In India 360
James Mathew writes "This is an interesting story from Kerala, India, where the ruling Communist Party organized a national conference in its efforts to hijack the Free Software Movement, which has enviable roots in the state. They got Novell to sponsor it. On the second day of the conference, a few free software activists who displayed posters against Novell were manhandled by the organizers and police — typical of what is expected from them. Most of the snaps taken during the scuffle were forcefully deleted by the organizers, after seizing the protesters' mobile phones. Still they couldn't delete all. Here is another blow-by-blow account."
Sadly (Score:3, Insightful)
The pictures don't show anything and any people quoted would have vested interests.
Alternative Viewpoint (Score:5, Insightful)
Free Software activists start a protest on private property, are asked to leave by owners/organisers and forgo negotiation, instead opting for point-blank refusal. This leads to a confrontation because both of both parties being excessively stubborn.
Sounds like 50/50 blame split to me.
Boycott Boycott Novell (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep (Score:2, Insightful)
I can't wait for the morons to appear here (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, the die-hard haters who come out of the woodwork every time Novell is mentioned, dredging up the years old Microsoft deal, which I predicted at the time would have zero impact on Linux and FOSS and have been vindicated in that prediction - except for the haters.
These people really don't give a damn about Linux or FOSS - all they care about is establishing that they're more "moral" than everyone else by opposing any interoperability deals with Microsoft. The fact that the average corporation couldn't care less and only wants some assurance that their Linux deployment will work with their Microsoft deployment is ignored by these morons. The fact that this allows Novell to improve, however small, Linux's penetration into the data center and corporations doesn't interest them either. The fact that whatever Novell agreed to in the deal in terms of "patent protection" is overwhelmingly irrelevant to any future patent cases (which so far haven't materialized and are unlikely to - and unlikely to be won by Microsoft when they do, as countless people have pointed out) doesn't matter to these clowns either.
Only their juvenile emotional well-being matters to them - and of course, damaging the emotional well-being of everyone else who disagrees with their fanaticism.
Fuck 'em.
Re:Boycott Boycott Novell (Score:3, Insightful)
MySpace/YouTube Integration is a feature emerging (Score:5, Insightful)
Lesson for next time: Use a phone with automatic blogging so the photos are off the phone and on the Net before they can stop you.
Re:Boycott Boycott Novell (Score:1, Insightful)
Except that the Mono project is part of the EEE (embrace, extend and extinguish) strategy of microsoft.
Microsoft has a deal with Novell. But not with other Distributions or Gnome. So they can still sue the hell out of them if they want.
Now that Gnome largely depends on Mono (indirect dependencies), they reached an important step.
These people warn about this problem. Many are badly informed because it's some kind of retard magnet, but this makes the base point not untrue.
Oh, and I myself act trough boycotting Gnome. Their philosophy is "Make it as easy as possible, and do not care if the user wants to confgure it differently or have a choice". This is what I disliked about Windows (except for it being closed source and made by a highly criminal company).
This Mono problem is the last straw that breaks the camel's back.
And just for those who disagree: This is - per definition - my POV. Of course you can disagree. :) :)
But be prepared to bring a hell of a good set of arguments to the table.
others top my list (Score:5, Insightful)
The objections of BoycottNovell.com against Novell make no sense to me: Microsoft's deal with Novell hasn't affected anybody negatively, and Novell continues to make valuable contributions to the FOSS communities (note: I'm an Ubuntu user, and although I like Mono better than Java, I don't use it much).
At the top of my list of companies that claim to be open source-friendly but that actually have dangerous agendas would be Sun, Apple, and Nokia. All of those companies have big patent portfolios, deals with Microsoft, and patent deals, and they have frequently acted against the interests of open source and open standards, and we still don't boycott them. Furthermore, although those other companies talk a lot about their contributions, Novell is probably responsible for a lot more software that people use day-to-day.
Re:I can't wait for the morons to appear here (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Alternative Viewpoint (Score:5, Insightful)
There shouldnt be any freedom of speech limiting withing groups which both support open and free software.
Why not? Open source and free software events have rules and agendas like any other meeting. And participants have limited time to get the job done they came for.
If participants or protestors won't shut up and keep disrupting the event, they should get kicked out by security. It doesn't matter who it is or what message they are pushing, and it doesn't matter whether it's in the US or India.
Re:What a Shame !! (Score:5, Insightful)
by that reasoning (Score:5, Insightful)
By that reasoning, you should boycott anything Linus or the BSD community produce: when those projects started, their kernels and tools were under considerable legal uncertainty. AT&T and other vendors claimed lots of copyrights and patents. You also shouldn't use Java because Sun has numerous patents on Java.
Open source has always been pushing the limits on patents, copyrights, and cloning, and open source has always been rubbing powerful vendors the wrong way. If anything, the legal situation surrounding Mono is better than it was for Linux or Java: with Mono, we have a public commitment from Microsoft that the core is free (the core that FOSS Mono software actually uses), and nobody has been able to identify patents that read on the core language, libraries, or runtime.
The only reason people get pushed out of shape about Mono is because of the Microsoft connection. But let me tell you: the original UNIX overlords were just as nasty and monopolistic and people still adopted Linux and made it a success.
Re:Democracy (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't you know that any government the US doesn't approve of is automatically communist?
Of course, the real answer is that it's possible for a government to be both democratic and communist. They're orthogonal to each other.
Re:Boycott Boycott Novell (Score:3, Insightful)
That's the most retarded fucking thing in the world. If you don't like Mono, just don't fucking use it.
He criticized a piece of software, your carrying on like he insulted your god(s), Get a grip...
Re:Alternative Viewpoint (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's say this was a Open Source and Free Software meeting and all they promoted was proprietary software. Would protesting that be fair?
That's exactly what they're doing according to Groklaw and even Novell themselves ,
Remember that Novell helped Microsoft get OOXML approved and Novell forked OpenOffice.org as soon as it moved to GPLv3.
Of course don't forget that Novell make their own version of Microsoft's SilverLight but they call it Moonlight. It's free to download but you have to download it from Novell to get patent indemnity... it exploits loopholes in GPLv2 in order to remove open source rights. To quote Miguel...
So this is what Novell want to make Open Source. These protesters stood up for the spirit and the letter of the GPL. Good on them!
Re:Alternative Viewpoint (Score:3, Insightful)
Thats not the point. There shouldnt be any freedom of speech limiting withing groups which both support open and free software.
Without a clear report of what really happened there it's impossible to decide where the blame lies, but if the protesters actually disrupted the conference, you could argue that they were limiting the free speech of others.
In the end, it's the organiser of the conference who decides what talks and what sponsors will be accepted. If you disagree, you can always organise your own conference.
On the other hand, if the protesters were merely wearing anti-Novell T-shirts or protesting outside, and not actually interfering with the proceedings of the conference itself, then I agree their freedom of speech has been seriously harmed.
Re:Boycott Boycott Novell (Score:4, Insightful)
The point is, these guys aren't actually contributing anything. Instead they just sit around and criticize fucking awesome hackers. Mono is really fantastic software. If you don't like it, just don't use it.
In other words: it should be about the code, not the politics.
"piracy" only helps M$, hurts FOSS (Score:5, Insightful)
So-called piracy only helps M$ against FOSS [latimes.com]. See this 2006 LA Times article:
Advocating piracy [timesonline.co.uk] in order to undercut competitors has carried M$ through the decades even now:
The only way for the market situation to get better is to avoid any and all use of M$Âproducts, including "pirated" ones.
Proportionate force was still too much. (Score:0, Insightful)
No, no one died but the organizers did bring in the heavies to protect their sponsor. Censorship is ugly no matter how you do it.
In this case, it blew right back into their face. Had the organizers left the protesters alone, the whole thing would have blown over. BN may have put some pictures up and that would have been the end of it. Instead the news of ripped up posters, deleted pictures and rough handling has spread all over the world. Here's a lesson for everyone: prevent disruption but allow peaceful protest to avoid incidents.
Re:Boycott Boycott Novell (Score:2, Insightful)
You're taking on premise that Novell does more good than harm to the Linux / Free Software world. I suspect that the Boycott Novell people would disagree with that.
I haven't been firmly convinced either way, but their stance seems to be that Novell is basically Microsoft's sleeper agent, and that the OSS world would be better off if they just disappeared tomorrow, even though that would mean some of the less-evil things they're doing would stop, than if they continue. I.e., they think the continued existence of Novell, taken as a whole in its current form, is a bad thing.
I don't think either camp -- pro-Novell or anti-Novell -- is really doing a great job of making its points in a rational and unemotional way. There seems to be a lot of noise and argument but not a lot of actual substantiative discussion.
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:3, Insightful)
If you are being a jerk, don't be surprised if you are treated like a jerk.
Sometimes these protesters get exactly what they are asking for, and in this case it sounds like they were begging and asking for a violent confrontation.
Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I think the physical force used "to silence the other side of the debate" was properly used.
It was the protesters who were doing the unethical behavior in this instance. There is a whole lot more to the story than what was published. I could give analogies, but this is something like going to a UK Soccer match wearing the colors of the visiting team and yelling obscenities about the home team.... in the middle of a bunch of drunken fans.
Well, not quite, but they certainly should have been aware of the fact that what they (the protesters at this conference) were doing wasn't welcome and may not be tolerated by the other participants. There certainly are a great many analogies to apply here to show this was a stupid idea.
Re:SW Patent Pact put Novell outside the community (Score:3, Insightful)
I removed any trace of Novell from our department when they signed their patent-pact with Microsoft - a clear preparation of an attack on Free Software. I do get asked by people, because of my position and background, for advice on which distribution to go for. I always caution against Novell products and, because I owe it to clients and friends, I explain why I am against the company rather than just leave it as uninformed prejudice.
As to Novell people hanging around on Slashdot, I'm quite sure they do. But astroturfing is a flawed tactic. There is no better online forum than Slashdot to get bad or biased arguments shot down, so all the astroturfers ultimately achieve is preparing the wider community with solid counter-arguments against their marketing. Consider it vaccination against a virus - a chance for the IT community's immune system to see the coming FUD. Truth will out - yes, even on Slashdot.
Re:SW Patent Pact put Novell outside the community (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Sadly (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you trying to say that the Indian police is a gang who's members raped and killed the protesters prior to setting their houses on fire and throwing them out ? Or did you mean that videotaping a police officer arresting a criminal shouldn't be allowed ? Because, after all, the video in question didn't show the protesters actions, but those of the police.
Extra points for absurd escalation, from "protesters blocking someone's view" into "an arsonist gang who initiates new members with rape and murder". Nothing like a ludicrously disproportional analogy to add flavour to an incoherent argument - that's why I love Slashdot :).
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:3, Insightful)
Police action will always make the cause more public so if you want to make some great headlines make sure that the police takes action against you.
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:4, Insightful)
you are right. Protesters that chain themselves to a fence deserve to be Tazered over and over and over again. come on they chained themselves to a fence! chains can kill! the cops need to tazer the man so many time because of how dangerous he was! HE WAS ASKING FOR IT!
the following is from a previous slashdot discussion...
"this is also considered resisting arrest and in situations officers will repeatedly tazer a limp person to torture them or pay them back for making them work. This happens a lot with protesters who make 2 or more cops carry them off, One who chained himself to a fence was tazered enough times that the cop had to get a second tazer as he emptied his. The man refused to unlock himself, the cop was too pig headed to get a set of bolt cutters and drag him off and was intent in teaching the protester a lesson.
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/55217 [ourmedia.org]
http://digg.com/world_news/Police_attack_PEACEFUL_Anti_War_Protestors_with_tasers_dogs_pepper_spray [digg.com]
http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/18/1239237 [slashdot.org]
for the actual slashdot article.
Sorry, but cops and "authorities" love to physically assault peaceful protesters. It happens so much I almost wonder if they train them to do it.
Back in the 50's and 60' it was not unheard of corrupt cops being beaten severely off duty, but they also fired and blackballed dirty cops then when they discovered they were doing wrong... today they get a 3 month paid vacation and protected by their other gang members.
Re:Boycott Boycott Novell (Score:3, Insightful)
What restrictions are the inflicting? All the I am aware of is that they don't forward something they don't have control over to others. That's not inflicting anything, the danger is already there, the only difference is that on one specific use, one specific company won't sure their customers. Nothing in the novell MS deal stops me from suing Novell's users if my patents are found in the products, nothing stops Sun or HP or the patent trolling company of the month. The patent deal isn't inflicting anything and to date, no one has claimed that novell actually included Microsoft's IP into one of the open source products. Maybe with a stand along closed source or non-free product but not in a FOSS product. Well, unless there is something I'm not aware of.
Re:Boycott Boycott Novell (Score:3, Insightful)
Your the one making the assertions that they are there. You need to support your claim. If you can't support your claim, then we have to take Novell at their word in that they aren't there. Me proving the opposite of your claim is just ridiculous, that would be like me saying your a no good tax cheating child molesting, raping baster, oh and if you disagree, I won't offer evidence in support of my accusation, you just need to prove that your not.
At least in the case of Novell, there is a record of what they have added, the additions get vetted by many other people in the community as well as the project admins and if your scared that something might have slipped by them, you have the option of just no using the stuff Novell has contributed. In the case of the accusation against you, there is nothing of the sort and the likelihood of it not being true is even harder to catch then in the system surounding Novell's contributions.
This statement is just false. Novell doesn't control Linux. If Linux become encumbered with patents of Microsoft somehow, it will be because of people other then Novell. If novell adds something to anything, it is reviewed. If that review turns up a patent, then other groups and projects simply don't use the patented materials. That means Novell will be the only authorized distributor of Novell's MS patent encumbered versions of Linux in which the GPL already makes statements about despite that the Patent Deal might not even cover them.
Now it appears that what your pissed about is that if there is ever found that patents do exist in linux, then Novell might not have to stop using it when other will. But if you read the deal or even the breakdown Grokelaw did, you will find that the patent deal with MS didn't cover anything that competes with MS products or that were primarily developed by a third parties (that rules out the kernel). There are three exclusions [microsoft.com] to the covered patents, they are Foundry Products, [microsoft.com] Clone Products [microsoft.com] and Other Excluded Products. [microsoft.com] That means that Postfix or Apache, wouldn't be covered by the patent deal if Novell injected some poisoned code in it. It means that open office or mozilla or Gnome or Mono or anything of the sort in which meets one of more of those definitions wouldn't be covered and Novell wouldn't be an authorized distributor of them if they ever become encumbered by anyone.
The information has been availible for years now. Most people have dropped the "Novell is teh evil" by now because of it. Everything was blown out of portion during the creation of the deal because the Church of Stallman wanted to push the GPLv3 through when very few people were supporting it and they purposely misrepresented the facts in order to do so. The worst part of this is that their manufactured outrage which you apparently are still effected by, came at a time when the disaster that is Windows Vista was first released and all the TCO studies MS did were invalidated because the entire benefit to MS, the retraining costs associated with linux, was being recreated in the switch to vista. For