The Register is reporting that according to some reports, Interpol will soon be pushing for a world-wide facial recognition database at the borders of all member nations. "The UK already has airport gates equipped with such technology, intended to remove the need for a human border guard to check that a passenger's face matches the one recorded in his or her passport. According to the Guardian, Interpol database chief Mark Branchflower believes that his organization should set up a database of facial-recognition records to operate alongside its existing photo, fingerprint and DNA files."
Why do you think they have that "tagging" feature for the photos? Didn't you know all this time that you've been training their face recognition database?
I try to envision the right model for security and privacy as small town America. In this model everyone knows everyone else and for the most part, when you see your neighbor, he/she sees you.
Extrapolating this to the modern world, a world-wide facial recognition database would be compatible if the following additional conditions were met: a) everyone had access to it (Everyone knows everyone else) b) it was trivially easy to see where the cameras were (when you see me, I see you) c) cameras were only in a relatively few number of places. (when I'm behind "closed doors" I'm out of public view)
I'm not convinced governments can abide by these above rules, but if they could I'd be OK living in a world-wide "small town".
Me, I like to live in a world-wide "big city". I don't know if you've ever lived in "small town America", but if you happen to be a different color, ethnicity or sexual orientation from most of your other "small town neighbors" life can be an absolute hell. The problem is, there are lots of stupid, small-minded people in small towns AND big cities. But in small towns, where "everybody knows you" those stupid people can really fuck things up for you, whereas in a "big city" you can move to a part of town where there are others who are more openminded. Or (and this is important) you can just be anonymous.
This notion that somehow there is this suddenly emergent need for greater security is a complete load of bullshit being perpetrated on us by people who want to use this "security" to become more powerful.
If anything, I'd suggest that privacy and anonymity is more important now than it ever has been. I'll go a step further and say that cameras and databases are about the worst way to make a society "secure". The only people who become more "secure" are those in the security regime.
Once upon a time commitment to American principles made one a patriot. Now blind support of all government policies is required.
Yeah, the DHS had a pamphlet out that listed the Gadsden Flag as a symbol of domestic terrorism.
The line between patriotism and nationalism is a thin one.. but I believe that a nationalist is a blind patriot.
It really disturbs me when I hear John McCain talk about "Country first".. That is absolutely UN-American. Americans believe the individual needs are placed about the needs of the state. China is a place where the needs of the state come before those of the individual people, not America.
Oh its ridiculous. The Gadsden flag is a US flag and for a time was the OFFICIAL US flag of the 13 colonies. (denoted by the 13 rattles on the snakes tail.)
Domestic Terrorists
Anti-Government Groups
Often associated with unorganized militias, the Anti-Government movement actually embraces a much larger variety of groups and causes. The extreme fringe believes that the U.S. government is either the enemy or has been subverted by the enemy and must be actively defended against.
There is nothing wrong proclaiming that you want to defend your rights from government. The prefatory clause to the second amendment also states that the local militia is a requirement to security of a free state.
Anti-Government Issues and Beliefs
Gun Control is a conspiracy to enslave us starting with the removal of our ability to either defend ourselves or forcefully change our government.
No we wouldn't want people to be able to defend themselves.
The first ten amendments of The Constitution are God given and all others are temporary, invalid or outright fraudulent.
Totally wrong interpretation of the Constitution. The Constitution is written in neg
A big database, kind of like a 'book', of everyone's face? Maybe with a stack of personal information? And make it really hard to take your details off?
I wonder how long it will be before this technology is utilized outside the airport gates...like, for example, with all of the myriad CCTV cameras currently infesting London.
What sort of resolution does this technology require? Could the technology be used on the CCTV images?
Finding out the cute 20-year-old from your "randomstuff" folder is now a 30-something mom who weighs 200 pounds is a real downer. Especially if she's still posing. That sight can really deflate your fantasy.
This technology doesn't work well enough for CCTV.
Sure about that? FTFA:
The attraction of facial-recognition records, as opposed to conventional mugshots, is that automated searching is possible. A specially-equipped airport gate - or even, in some circumstances, a security camera - would be able to sound an alert every time a person on the Interpol watch list went past.
Even 1% false positives or negatives in a huge application will lead to lots of problems.
An auxiliary question is whether machine accuracy exceeds humans. People make mistakes too.
I work for a local law enforcement agency that uses facial recognition systems. I don't work in that department, but I'm familiar with the systems. A few years ago, it was still really bad, but it's made large jumps in accuracy since that time. However, we usually have humans operating the cameras and computers, so it's always double checked. Everyone who gets booked into the jail is added to the facial recognition database. Then the officers on the road can use systems in their cars to take pictures of people and find their identity (a lot of people give us fake IDs, and a lot of those people have visited us before). Also, we have to ask permission before taking someone's picture on the street.
Anyway, even at the current level of accuracy, it can't operate really well without human assistance.
Even 1% false positives or negatives in a huge application will lead to lots of problems.
So, they screw up once in a while and get Buttle rather than Tuttle. Do you think the UK (or US, since it will soon be in the States too, I'm sure) even cares about ruining the occasional person's life? Besides, they'll get a receipt for it.
I would think that if they add mastication-recognition it would lower fail rates.
Think of the fun at airport gates: "Se need to better identify you - please show use your gait and when you're finished, please masticate in front of the camera..."
(@%@$! first jackets, then shoes, now I'm supposed to masticate at the gait?)
that this would even be a good thing for the governments involved. What about covert operatives working for a government that travel to another country? They would be instantly flagged if any one nation had the knowledge of their covert status.
On the New Hampshire Driver's License application/renewal form, there's a checkbox on the back that requires the State to delete your photo from its database after making the license. (Now that they're mailing the licenses though I have to wonder about their backup strategies.)
Do it where you can and get your legislature to require your DMV to do so if necessary. Also get them to reject RealID. If you can't, move here [freestateproject.org].
So, jesting aside, how will this work with cosmetic surgery? Will celebrities getting cosmetic work abroad no longer be identified correctly? Will actual terrorists suddenly become interested in elective procedures just to fool the system? How will the system deal with the fact that people change as they age?
Interesting questions.
I wonder if this will become a legitimate tool for law enforcement, or if it will be yet another big brother tool.
Seems ironic to me that we have the international law-enforcement agencies as well as a ton of cross-border data and system sharing agreements all intended to stop people from crossing the borders themselves. They want information about us to be world wide but they don't want us to be world wide.
The summary and the Register article make it sound like Interpol wants to keep a record of everyone with a passport. This does not appear to be the case, according to the original article [guardian.co.uk] which the Register ripped off and rewrote.
Senior figures want a system that lets immigration officials capture digital images of passengers and immediately cross-check them against a database of pictures of terror suspects, international criminals and fugitives.
Not that I like the scheme, but it doesn't sound quite as police-state as some might think. My picture is already taken all over the place if I go to the airport, this would take my picture and cross-check it with a database of known criminals, terrorists and fugitives.
My picture is already taken all over the place if I go to the airport, this would take my picture and cross-check it with a database of known criminals, terrorists and fugitives.
...and store your picture in a non-terrorist database, and in the event that you join a revolutionary movement to overthrow your highly corrupt government move your entry into the terrorist list, providing a convenient means to locate and apprehend you. And I don't necessarily mean your government is corrupt today, just that it could one day be.
Your picture may be taken all over the place already, but citing this as a reason why the proposed system isn't big-brother-eque doesn't make much sense. If people a
The 9/11 hijackers were not dressed in traditional middle eastern clothing. They were wearing run-of-the-mill business-casual clothing, which is why they were so successful -- they looked like normal travelers, and drew no attention to themselves at the airport.
Solution? Demand that all terrorists wear traditional middle eastern clothing. Even the abortion-clinic and McVeigh types.
It's not fool-proof, I admit -A lot of non-terrorists also wear traditional middle eastern clothing, and some may cry "profiling", but it's a good first step. Then, at security, the screeners can ask anyone in the right mode of dress, "Are you a terrorist?" The ones that say "Yes" are then arrested.
And then I can finally make it through line without taking off my shoes. Flawless.
The Federal government has my photo from my passport stored somewhere.
It has my DNA from my stint in the Army.
It has has my fingerprints from security clearance applications and several FBI background checks I've had to go through to be a teacher.
My only solace is, in all of my photos for federal documents I'm frowning like an NFL star posing for a picture, and on all my Facebook pictures I'm smiling.
Though when it comes down to it, if the government goes to crap, I'm screwed.
Samples of the new FaceEx [wikipedia.org] function:
SELECT FaceImage from tblFaces where FaceEx(FaceImage) LIKE FaceEx(@MINE)
SELECT FaceImage from tblFaces where FaceEx(FaceImage) LIKE FaceEx('salma.hayek.faceimage')
SELECT FaceImage from tblFaces where FaceEx(FaceImage) LIKE FaceEx(@YERMOM)
Tomorrow, Class, we will discuss the JOIN, INSERT INTO, and GROUP BY operators.
Unless those are unreasonably large scars, they shouldn't make any difference. Facial recognition typically relies on the size/placement of the facial bones, which generally don't change significantly, barring extreme trauma.
Though the people advocating this need to be sent home to read up on base rate negligence before they continue speaking.
Growing up in Malawi as a young Dutch boy, I once (age seven or so) asked my nanny, a South-African woman, how she could tell other African people apart, as they all looked the same to me. Not the one's I knew personally of course, just the other 99.9%. This is the kind of question only a child can and will ask, and after laughing, she confided in me she had the same thought about Europeans (that they all looked alike).
Somehow, I don't think software is going to have this problem, allthough the prejudices of
There Already Is One (Score:5, Interesting)
Why do you think they have that "tagging" feature for the photos? Didn't you know all this time that you've been training their face recognition database?
Schwab
Re:There Already Is One (Score:4, Informative)
Here's a fairly balanced article [itsecurity.com] on the CIA/Facebook connection.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
"Arrest him! On Facebook it says he's a Libertarian. We can't have these free-thinkers running around!"
Re:There Already Is One (Score:5, Insightful)
"Arrest him! On Facebook it says he's a Libertarian. We can't have these free-thinkers running around!"
Once upon a time commitment to American principles made one a patriot. Now blind support of all government policies is required.
Parent
Re:There Already Is One (Score:4, Interesting)
I try to envision the right model for security and privacy as small town America. In this model everyone knows everyone else and for the most part, when you see your neighbor, he/she sees you.
Extrapolating this to the modern world, a world-wide facial recognition database would be compatible if the following additional conditions were met:
a) everyone had access to it (Everyone knows everyone else)
b) it was trivially easy to see where the cameras were (when you see me, I see you)
c) cameras were only in a relatively few number of places. (when I'm behind "closed doors" I'm out of public view)
I'm not convinced governments can abide by these above rules, but if they could I'd be OK living in a world-wide "small town".
Parent
Re:There Already Is One (Score:5, Insightful)
Me, I like to live in a world-wide "big city". I don't know if you've ever lived in "small town America", but if you happen to be a different color, ethnicity or sexual orientation from most of your other "small town neighbors" life can be an absolute hell. The problem is, there are lots of stupid, small-minded people in small towns AND big cities. But in small towns, where "everybody knows you" those stupid people can really fuck things up for you, whereas in a "big city" you can move to a part of town where there are others who are more openminded. Or (and this is important) you can just be anonymous.
This notion that somehow there is this suddenly emergent need for greater security is a complete load of bullshit being perpetrated on us by people who want to use this "security" to become more powerful.
If anything, I'd suggest that privacy and anonymity is more important now than it ever has been. I'll go a step further and say that cameras and databases are about the worst way to make a society "secure". The only people who become more "secure" are those in the security regime.
Parent
Re:There Already Is One (Score:5, Informative)
Once upon a time commitment to American principles made one a patriot. Now blind support of all government policies is required.
Yeah, the DHS had a pamphlet out that listed the Gadsden Flag as a symbol of domestic terrorism.
The line between patriotism and nationalism is a thin one.. but I believe that a nationalist is a blind patriot.
It really disturbs me when I hear John McCain talk about "Country first".. That is absolutely UN-American. Americans believe the individual needs are placed about the needs of the state. China is a place where the needs of the state come before those of the individual people, not America.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh its ridiculous. The Gadsden flag is a US flag and for a time was the OFFICIAL US flag of the 13 colonies. (denoted by the 13 rattles on the snakes tail.)
Domestic Terrorists
Anti-Government Groups
Often associated with unorganized militias, the Anti-Government movement actually embraces a much larger variety of groups and causes. The extreme fringe believes that the U.S. government is either the enemy or has been subverted by the enemy and must be actively defended against.
There is nothing wrong proclaiming that you want to defend your rights from government. The prefatory clause to the second amendment also states that the local militia is a requirement to security of a free state.
Anti-Government Issues and Beliefs
Gun Control is a conspiracy to enslave us starting with the removal of our ability to either defend ourselves or forcefully change our government.
No we wouldn't want people to be able to defend themselves.
The first ten amendments of The Constitution are God given and all others are temporary, invalid or outright fraudulent.
Totally wrong interpretation of the Constitution. The Constitution is written in neg
Re:There Already Is One (Score:5, Funny)
This is why everyone should use goatse as their facebook image.
"Sir, according to the records at the CIA this guy is a huge asshole."
Parent
A big book of faces.. (Score:5, Insightful)
A big database, kind of like a 'book', of everyone's face? Maybe with a stack of personal information? And make it really hard to take your details off?
Like we'd ever fall for that!
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
All Your Face... (Score:5, Funny)
All Your Face Are Belong To Us!
Alternate Applications (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder how long it will be before this technology is utilized outside the airport gates...like, for example, with all of the myriad CCTV cameras currently infesting London.
What sort of resolution does this technology require? Could the technology be used on the CCTV images?
Re:Alternate Applications (Score:5, Funny)
What sort of resolution does this technology require? Could the technology be used on the CCTV images?
I wonder if this could also help with my porn collection and help me figure who's face is in the random porn pictures I have.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
You don't want to know.
Trust me.
Finding out the cute 20-year-old from your "randomstuff" folder is now a 30-something mom who weighs 200 pounds is a real downer. Especially if she's still posing. That sight can really deflate your fantasy.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, deflate your fantasy.
Re:Alternate Applications (Score:4, Funny)
It's facial recognition software.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This technology doesn't work well enough for CCTV.
Sure about that? FTFA:
Wrong end (Score:4, Funny)
They need to develop ass recognition software, so they can track down the goatse guy and make him pay for all the suffering he's inflicted upon us.
what is the current accurcy rate? (Score:5, Insightful)
An auxiliary question is whether machine accuracy exceeds humans. People make mistakes too.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Even 1% false positives or negatives in a huge application will lead to lots of problems...
Ah yes, the base rate fallacy (aka, the terrorist fallacy).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy [wikipedia.org]
One of those obvious things that is so hard to convey.
Interesting that the 'example' used in the wikipedia article is so near to what is happening in reality.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm uncertain - are you arguing that he's fallen for the fallacy or pointing it out?
I am just trying to point it out in support of his statement...and I'm not doing a very good job, evidently :(
Re:what is the current accurcy rate? (Score:5, Informative)
Anyway, even at the current level of accuracy, it can't operate really well without human assistance.
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
So, they screw up once in a while and get Buttle rather than Tuttle. Do you think the UK (or US, since it will soon be in the States too, I'm sure) even cares about ruining the occasional person's life? Besides, they'll get a receipt for it.
Re:what is the current accuracy rate? (Score:2)
Think of the fun at airport gates: "Se need to better identify you - please show use your gait and when you're finished, please masticate in front of the camera..."
(@%@$! first jackets, then shoes, now I'm supposed to masticate at the gait?)
I'm not sure... (Score:2, Interesting)
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
Supplies of Groucho glasses reach a all time low...
Opt-out Where You Can (Score:5, Informative)
On the New Hampshire Driver's License application/renewal form, there's a checkbox on the back that requires the State to delete your photo from its database after making the license. (Now that they're mailing the licenses though I have to wonder about their backup strategies.)
Do it where you can and get your legislature to require your DMV to do so if necessary. Also get them to reject RealID. If you can't, move here [freestateproject.org].
Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
Obligatory John Woo... (Score:5, Interesting)
No more drugs for this man!
So, jesting aside, how will this work with cosmetic surgery? Will celebrities getting cosmetic work abroad no longer be identified correctly? Will actual terrorists suddenly become interested in elective procedures just to fool the system? How will the system deal with the fact that people change as they age? Interesting questions.
I wonder if this will become a legitimate tool for law enforcement, or if it will be yet another big brother tool.
oh crap ... (Score:2)
Ironic (Score:5, Interesting)
Seems ironic to me that we have the international law-enforcement agencies as well as a ton of cross-border data and system sharing agreements all intended to stop people from crossing the borders themselves. They want information about us to be world wide but they don't want us to be world wide.
Note to self: (Score:2)
Invest in realistic-mask-making companies.
Not quite Big Brother (Score:3, Informative)
The summary and the Register article make it sound like Interpol wants to keep a record of everyone with a passport. This does not appear to be the case, according to the original article [guardian.co.uk] which the Register ripped off and rewrote.
Senior figures want a system that lets immigration officials capture digital images of passengers and immediately cross-check them against a database of pictures of terror suspects, international criminals and fugitives.
Not that I like the scheme, but it doesn't sound quite as police-state as some might think. My picture is already taken all over the place if I go to the airport, this would take my picture and cross-check it with a database of known criminals, terrorists and fugitives.
Re:Not quite Big Brother (Score:5, Insightful)
Surveillance is a slippery slope.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My picture is already taken all over the place if I go to the airport, this would take my picture and cross-check it with a database of known criminals, terrorists and fugitives.
...and store your picture in a non-terrorist database, and in the event that you join a revolutionary movement to overthrow your highly corrupt government move your entry into the terrorist list, providing a convenient means to locate and apprehend you. And I don't necessarily mean your government is corrupt today, just that it could one day be.
Your picture may be taken all over the place already, but citing this as a reason why the proposed system isn't big-brother-eque doesn't make much sense. If people a
Terrorist face recognition! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Terrorist face recognition! (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Terrorist face recognition! (Score:5, Funny)
Solution? Demand that all terrorists wear traditional middle eastern clothing. Even the abortion-clinic and McVeigh types.
It's not fool-proof, I admit -A lot of non-terrorists also wear traditional middle eastern clothing, and some may cry "profiling", but it's a good first step. Then, at security, the screeners can ask anyone in the right mode of dress, "Are you a terrorist?" The ones that say "Yes" are then arrested.
And then I can finally make it through line without taking off my shoes. Flawless.
Parent
Nixon masks make a comeback. (Score:2)
Well, I'm screwed (Score:5, Interesting)
The Federal government has my photo from my passport stored somewhere.
It has my DNA from my stint in the Army.
It has has my fingerprints from security clearance applications and several FBI background checks I've had to go through to be a teacher.
My only solace is, in all of my photos for federal documents I'm frowning like an NFL star posing for a picture, and on all my Facebook pictures I'm smiling.
Though when it comes down to it, if the government goes to crap, I'm screwed.
FaceEx database query (Score:2)
SELECT FaceImage from tblFaces where FaceEx(FaceImage) LIKE FaceEx(@MINE)
SELECT FaceImage from tblFaces where FaceEx(FaceImage) LIKE FaceEx('salma.hayek.faceimage')
SELECT FaceImage from tblFaces where FaceEx(FaceImage) LIKE FaceEx(@YERMOM)
Tomorrow, Class, we will discuss the JOIN, INSERT INTO, and GROUP BY operators.
1984 (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Incorrect. 1984 is what Orwell thought the future would be like in the year 1984.
I always thought that Orwell was an optimist.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And so was Atlas Shrugged, I'm waiting for John Galt to interrupt my regularly scheduled program any day now.
Re:What if I get a new scar? (Score:4, Funny)
How many times have you been mauled by a bear in the past 10 years?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Unless those are unreasonably large scars, they shouldn't make any difference. Facial recognition typically relies on the size/placement of the facial bones, which generally don't change significantly, barring extreme trauma.
Though the people advocating this need to be sent home to read up on base rate negligence before they continue speaking.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Growing up in Malawi as a young Dutch boy, I once (age seven or so) asked my nanny, a South-African woman, how she could tell other African people apart, as they all looked the same to me. Not the one's I knew personally of course, just the other 99.9%.
This is the kind of question only a child can and will ask, and after laughing, she confided in me she had the same thought about Europeans (that they all looked alike).
Somehow, I don't think software is going to have this problem, allthough the prejudices of