Give Up the Fight For Personal Privacy? 751
KlaymenDK writes "Over the last decade or so, I have strived to maintain my privacy. I have uninstalled Windows, told my friends 'sorry' when they wanted me to join Facebook, had a fight with my brother when he wanted to move the family email hosting to Gmail, and generally held back on my personal information online. But since, amongst all of my friends, I am the only one doing this, it may well be that my battle is lost already. Worse, I'm really putting myself out of the loop, and it is starting to look like self-flagellation. Indeed, it is a common occurrence that my wife or friends will strike up a conversation based on something from their Facebook 'wall' (whatever that is). Becoming ever more unconnected with my friends, live or online, is ultimately harming my social relations. I am seriously considering throwing in the towel and signing up for Gmail, Facebook, the lot. If 'they' have my soul already, I might as well reap the benefits of this newfangled, privacy-less, AJAX-2.0 world. It doesn't really matter if it was me or my friends selling me out. Or does it? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. How many Windows-eschewing users are not also eschewing the social networking services and all the other 2.0 supersites with their dubious end-user license agreements?"
Participate! (Score:3, Interesting)
I share a lot of your concerns but I think you might be going so far as to be antisocial. If you have nothing to hide, there's no reason to be hidden. Don't be afraid to participate in society.
On the other hand, I do worry about Orwellian tendencies among government and business. E.g., If I buy cigarettes for my friend using my bank card, will my health care be canceled?
I have found a hosts file (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm) to be very useful in protecting myself from malware and nosey ad tracking stuff.
I have signed up on facebook.com. It's nice to hear from old friends. I don't spend any time there though. I have never once been to twitter.
It can go two ways (Score:3, Interesting)
In ten years time either all of the "facebook" stuff will be seen as a fad, and joked about as a fad - forgotten and irrelevant. Or it will still be "big" and they will know and capitalise on every single aspect of every single person's private data.
Personally I suspect it will be the former scenario - the "2.0", "social-networking" stuff is just a buzz - a hyper money fuelled fad. The whole thing is an attempt to generate a self-fulfilling prophecy. Facebook worth fifteen billion dollars? Give me a break. The entire bubble has been fuelled on speculative hot air - "if I say it is valuable and the next big thing, then it is". As the stock market has so ably proven over the last few weeks - fads and self-fulfilling prophecies never last.
There was an analogy that was doing the rounds on the "privacy-less age" that we are supposed to be living in. It drew comparisons between the nineteenth century reluctance people had to put money into banks and today's reluctance to protect your private details. We now deposit most of our assets with banks and think nothing of it, the analogy being that in the future the same will be with our private information. Of course like most analogies it is fundamentally flawed to compare the two things - but I couldn't help but smile when, over the last month, I see people questioning to withdraw their money from banks that are on their knees.
Is it worth it? (Score:5, Interesting)
At some point, you have to find the balance between protecting your personal information and actually being able to interact with other people.
Consider the chance that your life will be somehow ruined by some comment you post on Facebook. It's very low, I think. Now consider how bad you're making life for yourself by refusing to communicate in order to avoid this risk. Is it really worth it?
I, for one, think the benefit I gain from Web 2.0 sites is generally worth the risk.
Lost in the crowd (Score:5, Interesting)
Short Version: No one is going to pay attention to you unless to invite that attention.
Computers are stupid. The volume of data you're worried about is mind boggling huge. Your google search history is tucked in there with billions on billions of other web requests. If you don't keep cookies between sessions then your thousands of individual search histories are tucked in there with billions of other web requests. This is far too complex for a computer to solve. Someone would have to specifically focus on you to assemble anything useful.
This is the case with just about everything. The volume of data is so large that unless you're doing something to stand out the fact that they have some of your information is meaningless.
If you're doing something to stand out then people will focus on you. That's when things get dicey. Until then you just get lost in the crowd.
Here's what you should ask yourself. Why the fuck would anyone bother with you? I'm not being mean. Seriously who would give a fuck about your web history? Most privacy concerns are simply ego. You're really not as important as you think you are.
You also fail to mention a lot of things. Do you have cable? Do you have your own internet? Do you only use cash? Do you drive on toll roads? The fact that you focus online and not on some of the worse real world things makes worry about you.
If you don't pay for literally _everything_ in cash you're giving away infinitely more intimate information than you'll ever find on facebook.
Do you have a cable box? If so you're entire viewing history ever may be available.
Your entire web history goes through your ISPs servers. Trivial to log. Are you using an encrypted pipe to a proxy? Do you control that proxy? Physically?
if you drive on toll roads there may be a record of all your travels. If you use a transponder to auto pay tolls then there must be.
Re:Participate! (Score:1, Interesting)
If you have nothing to hide, there's no reason to be hidden. Don't be afraid to participate in society.
I'm a homosexual atheist living here in Atlanta (The deep God fear'n Republican stronghold evangelical south - for those of you reading from other countries.). I vote Democratic.
I would like to have a Slashdot account but I really like Microsoft's products and I really dislike Linux, GNU, and anything F/OSS for various reasons.
So, you're saying that if I identify myself, I would be alright and nothing bad would happen to me? I won't be flamed and modded down into negative territory if I opened an account here on Slashdot? Meaning, after expressing my views I wouldn't be an outcast forever posting at "-1" ?
Just making a point here.
Re:Seriously? Get over yourself. (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Your privacy was eroded for you (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to detract from your main point, but MySpace is far from being the "latest fad" at this point. Instant messaging is even less so; I would consider it to be productivity software [newscientist.com] at this point.
Facebook is not so much a total waste of time as useful purely for social interaction (and wasting time). We can't all be reading Cicero in our spare time, I suppose.
Re:Still anonymous online here... (Score:2, Interesting)
A thought I had about this; Whats the difference between a throw away email address that you have used for everything since 1995 and a real identity?
Re:Your privacy was eroded for you (Score:2, Interesting)
Facebook fanatics? I don't think that's a title they've given themselves. They aren't preaching the wonders of Facebook, ranting on street corners and passing out little booklets of The Good News of The Zucker-Man.
You were somewhere with friends, and one of those friends took a picture of you. They put that picture online, and tagged you in that picture, for others who care to quickly find you in pictures. That's not fanaticism, that's socializing on the internet for many people.
Back to the original post - do you use any "membership" cards to get discounts at stores? They're tracking you there, too. [catandgirl.com] (Don't worry, Cat and Girl isn't a wacky blog about a girl and her cat. It's a web comic about "a cat, a girl, and an experimental meta-narrative") Maybe you've been in some publication, like a newspaper? Your name is out there somewhere.
Your best bet is to cut all ties to people and live in the woods. Just don't send explosive mail [wikipedia.org] to those "facebook fanatics" who are trying to keep you tied to the internet. I hear incendiary letters are tracked more closely than your gmail correspondence.
Re:I don't get it... (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I am impressed when people tell me that they refuse to own a television. Television, like Facebook and the www, is a seductive time-sink. I always suspect that I would live better if I eschewed them all.
Re:Can they track us all... (Score:2, Interesting)
They don't need to track us all. They just need to be able to cast a net to get whatever interests them.
Eg: Suppose I'm a thief and I want to steal a particular kind of car. With most people on facebook being stupid enough to join a 'network' and expose all their profile to everybody in the network, all I have to do is join some networks and search through profiles until I find someone in my area who has a reference to that car in their profile. I can probably also see where they go to school or work and thereby make a pretty good prediction about where and when the car is going to be available for me to grab it. I might even be able to identify their friends to do a little social engineering ... ("Oh I'm a friend of Steven's, do you know when he's going to be back today ...").
Re:David Brin wrote about this years ago (Score:4, Interesting)
You need to understand respect for those that desire privacy. Just because you're an exhibitionist doesn't mean that we are. We can be private in our thoughts, deeds, and actions. Anonymity also insulates you against the whims of government, and organizations that don't have your best interests in mind.
The thesis of books like Brin's "Transparenty Society" is more of a matter that with increasing technological progress the erosion of privacy is inevitable. It reminds me a little bit of cultures that eschew photography, because they're afraid that cameras steal their soul or something. That's all fine and dandy, but since we seem to be going towards a society where almost everyone is going to be carrying tiny little cameraphones with them in their pockets and using them for a variety of purposes, it becomes increasingly difficult to keep your soul from getting stolen.
Google makes you moot. (Score:3, Interesting)
Especially if you've used the same nick on other sites (I'm assuming so). A quick Googling of your slashdot nick shows that:
- you've made some 3D models of your desk and wine rack.
- you've got a last.fm profile listing Elvis and Chuck Berry as recently listened to
- you're on Openmoko
- you like boardgames
- you may something to do with g-b.dk
- you've posted to linuxquestions.org about bookmarks
- your nick may be a reference to the main character of a game called 'The Neverhood'
Oh, and if you thought privacy was easier before the webbernet, go talk to a skip tracer about how easy it is to find you, even when covering your tracks.
Re:Err.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Just because they're there doesn't mean they work.
You are missing the point. (Score:1, Interesting)
So what if your Grocery Store Discount card shows that you bought some frozen pizzas. So what if the toll road shows that you drive to work. When you do stuff, people can see you. This is not insightful, it is obvious.
The point that you are missing is that privacy is a lifestyle choice that is beneficial. You should maintain your privacy. You should not give out your personal information. And, you should be weary of services that do not protect your privacy. These truths are self evident.
Re:Let me get this straight (Score:3, Interesting)
So Should you use the same name to protect that username/handle against future employer/gf/whatever googling your name/email/username and finding out that iamhigh on myspace banged some asian last night?
Or should you use a completely different username on each site? This seems to provide better "privacy", but others might think the facebook/myspace account iamhigh is associated with this account.
Or you could just take legal action (Score:4, Interesting)
I understand your personal preference, but it's worth keeping in mind that Facebook are not immune from data protection rules either. If they are holding personal information about you without your consent, and worse, sharing it with others, then they may well be breaking the law in some jurisdictions.
I almost wish a few people who still value privacy would start filing formal complaints with the appropriate courts/regulatory authorities, so social networking sites get the message that they only get to collect data with people's informed consent. The sort of opt-out policy that Facebook et al. currently take is just an unscalable cop-out. Of course, this would be easier if we had decent privacy and data protection laws, which many countries still don't.
Re:How is this any different from the real world? (Score:4, Interesting)
And eventually, we'll start realizing that we are ALL assholes at one point or another, and we'll get on with our lives ;) No one can be holier-than-thou because you have proof that they aren't, so the playing field is equalized.
I'm completely talking out of my ass, but I don't think it's an entirely BAD thing that people will be forced to admit to their mistakes. We all make them... how we deal with them is how we should be defined (as in, did we learn from them?).
Re:David Brin wrote about this years ago (Score:2, Interesting)
You need to understand respect for those that desire privacy.
That's a nice idea, but not really true, is it? Not in this country, anyway.
Just because you're an exhibitionist doesn't mean that we are. We can be private in our thoughts, deeds, and actions.
Thoughts are private (this week), and nothing will change that (short of some extraordinary medical breakthroughs and/or cooperation by the subject).
Actions or Deeds that are private are barely worth noting. If I take a piss on my living room table, and nobody witnesses it, I guess that's an action or deed - and it's private. If I do the same at a friends house, it is certainly an action - and will remain as private as the 2 of us decide to keep it. If I do it in public, then it will remain as private as the public decides to keep it. So I guess I'm saying that's a non-statement.
Anonymity also insulates you against the whims of government, and organizations that don't have your best interests in mind.
I disagree. And I think that anyone would if they considered the various equal rights movements.
Re:Err.. (Score:3, Interesting)
[...]if you're worried about the information getting out to the internet as a whole, you just go into your preferences and tell it what to make public, friends-only, completely private, or what-have-you
No, if you don't want some information to be all over the internet, don't put it on the internet. At all!
There are multi-gigabyte torrents of all the "private" pictures on myspace & co. I don't see any reason to believe Facebook is any better with respect to security.
Re:Resistance is futile (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, what society "driven" and what is good old-fashioned American consumerism?
OP: Don't give in. It's just what 'they' want. Pressure from others to join these 'services'. Bull.
Read about the OIA on Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]
Re:Take the opposite approach. (Score:5, Interesting)
> it's like saying writing your password on a post-it stuck to your monitor is a good security practice because security by obscurity doesn't work.
However writing _incorrect_ password on a post-it note stuck to your monitor works quite well :)
Re:Take the opposite approach. (Score:1, Interesting)
Several webcam "fun" software already does that. They add hats, wigs, noses, eyes, and other "enhancements" to faces on "movin' pitchers".
Tweaking the algorithms in the libs (several are open-source) can probably do the same to static photos.
(Literal) Defacement-bot wars, anyone ?
"Obfuscate the world!" - a neat motto.
Re:I don't get it... (Score:3, Interesting)
Heh...I figured someone who would post that challenge wold take more than 5 minutes. I mean, I said "very likely" you're not anonymous, I didn't even say it was impossible. However, you're the type who posts personal information on blogs yourself. I don't care about the prize, but just to educate you, the last 4 digits of your phone number are 8154.
Considering how easy it was from me, other people might be giving you a call. I hope I'm wrong and your stuff just leads to false or outdated information.
That number was easy to find. But that's his previous number -- I hope the person who lives there won't get worried, she lives alone. She did wonder who was calling her from England.
I've left a voicemail on his current number, and the voicemail thing confirmed his identity.
Re:Your privacy was eroded for you (Score:3, Interesting)
You can control tags of you in your Facebook privacy settings.
How does that work if you don't have a facebook account because you refuse to accept their terms of service?
Re:You might have to join them just to control the (Score:2, Interesting)
Nice idea, but unfortunately too late. Once you've been tagged "they" (aka facebook and the companies they sell data to) won't forget, even if the information is no longer readily available.
I've given up on the idea that I have ideal privacy. What I do do is salt my trail with false, misleading and often downright contradictory details. If anyone is going to try data mining on me then I figure the least I can do is make their job as difficult as possible: the real me is in there somewhere, but so are a whole heap of lookalikes.
Re:Take the opposite approach. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Take the opposite approach. (Score:4, Interesting)
I do when I use the customer card...
Funny...of late, everyone seems to start acting surprised or at least lightly astounded when you say you use cash. Does no one carry or use it anymore?
I was once in CC debt hell...got out of it. Since then, I try to use cash for most everything...except for gas (Sam's club doesn't take cash and their gas prices are good). But I find it isn't that big a deal...hit the ATM, and take out about $300 or so which lasts most of the week for most things. I find that by doing this...I have more of a feel of how much I am actually spending. You don't get that abstraction like you do playing with chips in a casino. When it is real money you are spending...it means something to you, and is easier to monitor your spending habits.
Don't get me wrong...I still have credit cards..for buying some things online and emergencies...but, even when they are used, they get paid in full monthly.
Are there that many out there on Slashdot that don't carry and use cash...as their primary form of paying for things?
Re:David Brin wrote about this years ago (Score:3, Interesting)
No. [cbsnews.com]
Re:Take the opposite approach. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Take the opposite approach. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Or you could just take legal action (Score:5, Interesting)
I almost wish a few people who still value privacy would start filing formal complaints with the appropriate courts/regulatory authorities, so social networking sites get the message that they only get to collect data with people's informed consent.
That just brings us right back to the questions posted in this writeup. Taking legal action is just going to alienate your Facebook using friends even more.
What I find the most ironic, is that in the earlyish days of the web (and before that, USENET), I was an active participant in online communities. For that, I would often be labeled as an anti-social dork. But today, I'm labeled an anti-social dork because I don't participate in most online communities. Sigh.
Re:How is this any different from the real world? (Score:4, Interesting)
I know you think you all got me cornered here, but I disagree.
I know that I put that info on there. What I have a problem with is:
a) not at all: me posting info, or sharing info through sites of my own free choice.
Come on, if I had a problem with this, why would I use the same nick all over the place? (Or, is this really a conspiracy of different users all using the same nick in order to thwart attempts to classify "a person"? Bwahahaa....sigh.)
b) some, but not so much: people posting info about me through sites of their choice.
c) very much: having to choose between degraded relations, or using sites I for various reasons would rather not choose.
It's not about Facebook, or Trifive, or Last FM. It's about my friends, and keeping my friendship with them separate from (corporate) third parties and their rules.
Privacy (whatever that is) versus Convenience (Score:3, Interesting)
I have two Google mail accounts. One is all personal stuff, and one was established for professional use, back when I was seeking my first contract position. I try not to be too paranoid about just what Google keeps on me in this regard, because if it weren't them, it would be my ISP, or my hosting company or someone else storing my mail. I'm a contractor for the DOD, with a security clearance, so I probably have a better understanding of how to protect myself in email comms than the average bear. But, I also don't worry about it too much; I'm a glass half-full person and I believe that Google makes a reasonable effort to protect the stuff of mine that they do have.
There's one other aspect of this that I keep in mind: having been a sysadmin for a number of years, I know how easily any individual admin working in any IT department could log into any server and poke around in my mail. That's the human element that will always be the single point-of-failure in keeping completely secret. But like a lot of other things over which I have no control (the economy, gas prices, my Jaguars being 2-3), I try to remain vigilant and hope that the best happens. Maybe this is an unreasonable approach for others, but it keeps me from going insane.
Trust me, having worked in some very secure, classified situations, I can tell you that most of the people with whom I have worked are decent folks who value privacy even more strongly than you, and they have little interest in seeing what the average person has in their inbox. The rest of them are too technically inept, ignorant or stupid to do anyone any harm. Trust me on this...
So for me, the convenience of Gmail is the key. I keep all my personal correspondence there, and I can access it anywhere, including my phone, anytime I want. I need to be able to do that. For that reason alone, the other risks are mitigated.