National Car Tracking System Proposed For US 563
bl968 writes "The Newspaper is reporting that the leading private traffic enforcement camera vendors are seeking to establish a national vehicle tracking system in the United States using existing red-light and speed enforcement cameras. The system would utilize Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) to track vehicles passing surveillance cameras operated by these companies. If there are cameras positioned correctly the company will enable images and video to be taken of the driver and passengers. The nice thing in their view is that absolutely no warrants are needed. To gain public acceptance, the surveillance program is being initially sold as an aid for police looking to solve Amber Alert cases and locate stolen cars."
Inductive sensors (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's some food for thought:
The coils of wire embedded in the pavement, which are used to monitor freeway traffic and to control traffic lights, could detect the type of car that is passing over by the waveform it produces at the sensor. With some clever signal processing you could distinguish roughly the shape and size of the vehicle.
These sensors are everywhere - you might pass a hundred of them in a day. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to then see that if you could gather data from enough of these sensors, you could track a particular vehicle over the course of many miles. Combine this data with the camera images and you can also identify that vehicle.
Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (Score:4, Interesting)
Me too! (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm buying stock in bicycle manufacturers.
Re:Inductive sensors (Score:0, Interesting)
Combine this data with the camera images and you can also identify that vehicle.
RTFP.
Re:Inductive sensors (Score:2, Interesting)
Combining this information with things like driving style you could ostensibly create a fingerprint for every vehicle. Think of log-in schemes that are based on your typing style and cadence.
IR camera jamming? (Score:4, Interesting)
On a more serious note, I wonder if IR camera jammers [makezine.com] work on these cameras, and if use of them doesn't trip 'concealment' alerts since it doesn't prevent any person from seeing the plate. An LED array around the plate is certainly easier to remotely control and not as suspicious looking. Might be time to actually build one of those like I've been planning...
Re:I'm all for it (Score:4, Interesting)
Here in california we already have the Amber alert system tied into those highway warning signs and I see about 1 Amber alert every month or two.
Hell, amber alerts are just a bunch of fear-mongering bullshit. The number of children kidnapped each year who actually end up dead or 'permanently' missing is roughly 100 and has been for decades - the amber alert nonsense hasn't dented that statistic. All the others are either custody fights gone extra-legal or runaways, in each case the child is not in any immediate danger that would justify spamming the entire state.
Re:This shouldn't be a problem (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to drive tractor trailer over the road. I was so self-employed when the Federal DOT passed their new regulation regarding enforcement and investigation of such, despite the fact that in all the accident investigations involving big trucks, whether at fault or not, the commercial driver was subjected to tox and alcohol screens to determine his condition of sobriety and/or impairment at the time of the accident had returned result of far less than 1% of impaired commercial drivers.
I entered Utah at the border between it and Wyoming on I-80. Just across the line is a weigh and inspection station for Utah, almost directly across the highway from the same thing on the Wyoming side.
After being weighed and passed for legal weight I was flagged for inspection and pulled over to the side off the scale. I gathered my log book, my bills of lading, my permit and license books, my Commercial Drivers License and my medical certificate and entered the station house.
Upon getting inside, I said to the trooper on duty, "I don't know what you need, but I brought it all, what do you want to look at first?"
He replied, "I don't need any of that I pulled you in for a random alcohol screen."
I said, "What?"
He said, "You were number 17, I have four numbers I must pull in to screen for alcohol."
I asked him, "Did I do something on my approach to make you think I had been drinking?" He answered,"No."
"Well did I stagger or walk in any manner during the 100 yards walking back here to make you think I had been drinking?" He answered, "No."
"Well then, do you smell any alcohol on me now, or do you have any reason to believe I am drinking?" He answered, "No, I don't understand why you are so upset if you have nothing to hide."
I then asked him, " You really don't understand why I am upset that I must prove to you I haven't committed a crime you have no right or reason to suspect me of?"
He again stated, "I just don't understand why you are so upset if you have nothing to hide."
I said, "Are you really so stupid that you don't understand the reason I am angry that I must prove my innocence, though you have no reason to suspect me?"
He said, "Look, this is my job and I have to do it and if you didn't have anything to hide you shouldn't be upset."
I asked, "Do you really believe that?"
He said that he did.
That was three times I asked, three times the dumb sonofabitch indicated he had no concept of liberty or law. Three is all I will give anybody, and sometimes not that.
I said, "Ok, if you really mean that, take off your pants and your underwear."
He looked incredulous, then asked, "Are you crazy?"
I replied, "No sir, I am not. Take off your pants and underwear, we are going to examine your penis for blood and fecal matter to determine if you have been molesting small boys."
That sonofabitch went through the roof, ranting and screaming and telling me I had no right to accuse him of such a thing. I think he would have shot me if he had had the guts and thought he could get rid of the body before anybody happened along.
I calmly replied, "It's random, I have no reason to suspect you, but now you must prove you have not been sodomizing young boys. After all, if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't be upset. What do you have to hide? Isn't that what you told me three times that you believed?"
He was sputtering and yelling at me and soooo red in the face, I thought I might get lucky and the no good sonofabitch would die from a stroke. He screamed at me, "That's entirely different!"
I told him, "The only thing different is now we are talking about you proving something I have no right to suspect you of. Evidently you didn't believe all that shit you told me, about nothing to hide s
Re:public space (Score:5, Interesting)
Exactly. This is a horrifying privacy invasion, particularly given that it is trivial to create a similar system that doesn't have any of those flaws.
A modest counterproposal: build a database of all stolen vehicles and all vehicles listed in an amber alert. Set up computer systems on each camera with the appropriate detection and set them to log vehicle plate information that is listed in the stolen vehicle/amber alert database permanently and to store all vehicle information in temporary storage that is overwritten when it is more than three hours old. Provide a programming interface that tells each device to check its temporary storage buffer for a single plate upon request and use this when a new amber alert or stolen car is added to the database.
This does two things: it solves the problem of amber alerts and stolen vehicles as defined and goes one step farther by providing a reasonable buffer time during which if an amber alert is called or a car is stolen, prior records can be searched for the vehicle in question (and only the vehicle in question).
Include strict laws that absolutely prohibit any extension of the temporary buffer period beyond 3 hours and prohibit any publication, distribution, or transmission of the data stored in the temporary buffer except for a list of detection events for a single plate as queried through the aforementioned interface. Include strict laws that provide criminal liability for knowingly adding a plate to the suspect vehicle database that does not belong to a stolen vehicle or a vehicle listed in an amber alert or other A.P.B.
Inevitable (Score:3, Interesting)
By 2018 or so everyone will be filming the vicinity of their car and/or home at all times anyway. (How better to provide evidence that an accident isn't your fault, or see who broke into your car, etc.) Once quality vidcams and computing power drop to almost $0, and cheap or free software makes it trivial to set up, why not?
Once that data is processed and correlated, everyone, including people who don't have the system, will be tracked everywhere and the information will be available to anyone. Even if only 1% of the cars on the road did this, in a metropolitan area everyone would essentially be tracked everywhere.
We're going to have to redefine our notions of privacy once everything that is detectable from a public space is recorded and distributed.
Of course, that's not quite the same thing as the government recording and correlating the data recorded in the public space and putting it in private databases.
Whoever tagged this "goodluckwiththat" (Score:3, Interesting)
...is obviously not aware that the base of this tech is already being installed in AZ. They could probably have this system installed nationwide and running in a decade or two, especially if it means more money in their pockets.
Is anybody seriously going to stand up to this? Or will we be like that couple in "Minority Report", where the spider robots came in their house, scanned their irises, and left, and the people didn't think a thing of it?
Re:Inductive sensors (Score:2, Interesting)
Impossibly useless. You have, at best, an analog value coming from those sensors measuring the amount of ferro-magnetic metal in the car.
So, just some of the things people modify that would throw the measurements off: Towbars, roofracks, different engine sizes, aluminum wheels, cargo, spare tire type, subwoofers, the list goes on... Heck, proximity to the sensor and length of time on it makes a difference, too. You would need a car driving on a perfectly flat surface, in the same direction, travelling at the same speed to get the same reading.
Re:Inductive sensors (Score:5, Interesting)
No, it's easier to just read the RFID tags in the tires.
What is this "The Newspaper" credit? Did something happen after I went to bed last night that left us with only one?
Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (Score:3, Interesting)
No, you aren't safer. You're not in any more danger either.
What you see is the perceived risk - if a kid goes missing now, it's front page news, and you can see the news from any given city. Any time any kid goes missing, it's on CNN and Fox all day. It sells. Since they lead with that shit, it looks like we're in the middle of a kidnapping epidemic.
35 years ago, it wasn't as sensational. You didn't have the media doing freakout stories every time a kid goes missing.
Most kidnappings are from someone the kid knows. There's very little random crime.
Homeland sucurity is already using this... (Score:3, Interesting)
Homeland Security: Homeland Security is a nice euphemism. It sounds like our homeland, our country, our homes will be safe and secure. This sounds great. But in practice what Homeland Security does is spy on law-abiding American citizens. Phones can and have been tapped; email can and has been intercepted, postal mail can and has been intercepted, people can and have been denied transportation. While the last example is not an example of spying, it is an infringement on freedoms. Personally, I adore America as being the âoeLand of the Free.â But in the name of security, freedoms are being negated. The government is now keeping tabs on citizens âoeto keep us safe.â Here is an example of the government watching us. "Bob" is a policeman in "Regulartown, USA". In his police car, he has a machine/computer/camera that scans the area for other cars, and this machine reads the license plates. The machine/computer/camera then checks its database to see if there are warrants, arrest notices, etc. for the owner of the vehicle. The machine/computer/camera also adds information to the database that the vehicle and its owner were at X location at Y time. In addition to the equipment on the police cars, every road coming into and leaving "Regulartown" contains a camera/computer that does the same thing. This camera/computer is tied into Homeland Security and keeps track of peoplesâ(TM) movements. We are really close to âoe1984â. We already have a Big Brother watching us. Soon, I fear, we may have Big Brother openly directing us.
I understand the governmentâ(TM)s reasoning for granting Homeland Security its spying privileges. The government wants to keep us safe. However, this is America: The Land of the Free. This country is not âoeThe Land of the Safeâ. People naturally want freedom to do what they feel is right. These freedoms can be choices of which church to attend, what flight to take, who to vote for, when to travel, how late to stay out, when to speak out against government policies, etc. In Arthur Millerâ(TM)s play, The Crucible, a play I teach to my English III students, Miller addresses the issue of governments wanting to regulate people for âoesafetyâ and how this conflicts with people wanting to be âoefree.â In the authorâ(TM)s commentary, Miller outlines the government crackdown of communists in the 1950s. His play, The Crucible, is a great allegory of McCarthyism. Some believe that we are headed for a new form of McCarthyism today. It seems that today our government has a new enemy to use for taking away freedoms. In 1692 the enemy was witchcraft; in 1950 the enemy was communism; on September 11, 2001, the enemy became terrorism.
Except... (Score:3, Interesting)
So...they might be able to use the general traffic cameras, but those would not likely be able to read enough detail to track anything, let alone the numerous cars visible on their picture at any given frame.
And don't forget - the ticketing cameras (e.g. speed limit & red-light runner cameras) only have a 1/3 accuracy rate to start with. (For every 3 attempts to ticket, 2 were thrown out.)
So I don't see how they are going to do very well...
A possible better solution (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm going to build motorized, retractable cover for my front license plate if this system is implimented. Fuck that.
My Prius has a rear view mirror that dims depending on how much light it's receiving. There is a sensor on it. Put your finger over the sensor and it thinks it's night out and the mirror dims.
Maybe we could make something like that to cover the plates? Some sort of electronic dimming glass. Or maybe a large blank LCD that you could toggle with a switch.
Re:How handy! (Score:3, Interesting)
>Police later cleared themselves of any serious wrong-doing following an extensive investigation.
> I just love this quote so much, for so many reasons.
You should try living here. We Edmontonians hear that a lot on the news. "Police taser/shoot/run a red light and kill children " . . .and the internal investigation clears them of wrongdoing.
An offduty cop ran a red light in his BMW 735 wile drunk, and nearly killed 3 people, burned one of them quite badly. He was suspenede - with pay. It's laughable. (and how does a 5 year vet of the force afford a BMW 735 anyhow?)
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/05/12/5539571-sun.html [canoe.ca]
Re:heuristics (Score:5, Interesting)
If this system is matching on some magnetic profile, you could end up making your magnetic signature look just like some other cars signature.
Just imagine if the system thinks car X goes by sensor A at 9:00 and then sensor B at 9:01 and those sensors are 10 miles apart. Suddenly car X owner gets a speeding ticket in the mail.
Or what if someone driving along has a device under their car that consists of a grinding wheel that is feed by a magazine of rare earth magnets. I would imagine coating the ground with very magnetic powder would probably screw the system up, not to mention what it would do to the cars behind it as a fine dusting of magnetic powder goes into their engine.
You can defeat cameras with LEDs (Score:3, Interesting)
The IR-emitting diodes (LEDs) used for Sunglasses that hide your face from cameras [schneier.com] (as blogged by Bruce Schneier in July) could easily be applied to your license plates for the same effect.
The legality of such things is another question altogether; it could be a circumvention device for traffic/toll cameras, possibly falling into DMCA territory, but to my knowledge, only blue lights and blinking lights are at all regulated ... in fact, you're required to have your plates lit up - why not make it a light that is more intense to the infrared spectrum?.
Re:I'm all for it (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:public space (Score:3, Interesting)
Like the strict laws that say that your NICS record has to be deleted after 30 days, and the Mayor and Police chief of Phillidelphia refuse to delete, despite court orders because "it helps us solve crimes"
Re:DHS' real agenda (Score:2, Interesting)
Now the agenda of the DHS should be clear for everyone. It isn't about catching terrorists, its about tracking every citizen.
Actually, the agenda of the DHS is for DHS bureaucrats to climb the GS pay scale. And the agenda of the contractors that support them is also acquiring money. Worry about terrorists is a means, and the enslavement of mankind is merely a side-effect. There's no orwellian conspiracy, just blind greed.
Of course, we're just as fvcked either way.
Oh, and for those of you who think that Obama and his friends would fix any of this, I have a short message from Satan....
BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA
Its not Bush or Carl Rove who hold the security agency purse strings in the Democratic controlled house.
Ride a bike (Score:2, Interesting)
plate reading = postal reading (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Inductive sensors (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Why Am I Not Surprised (Score:3, Interesting)
I saw a graphic a while back that illustrated your very point: Two generations ago, gradeschool-age kids' average normal range was 7-8 miles from home. One generation ago, it was one mile. Now it's less than 300 yards.
There was an article in the NYTimes a while back (can't find it offhand) about a mom who gave her 9 year old son $20 for subway money and let him work out how to get home for himself -- and how proud the kid was at learning how to manage the public transportation system without help. That's what we should be teaching our kids, how to sensibly fend for themselves. But what was the more-typical reaction? HORRORS! don't you know no 9 year old kid can go anywhere without being abducted? How dare you let your son learn how to get around the town he lives in?? NEGLECT! Call Child Protective Services NOW!
Used to be kids were turned loose in the morning and the only rule was "be back by supper". Now, even if they do go somewhere "out of range", the cellphone umbilicus is active and tracking 'em. How many times lately have you seen teens call mommy to help them make every decision??
Remember a discussion here last year about how under our current nanny state and nanny society, people are no longer *allowed* to truly grow up?
I think these are all related phenomena, and are reflected by government's increasing desire to track us all, as if we're children unable to do anything or go anywhere on our own. We track our kids 24 hours a day, and guess what, those kids will grow up to think it's okay if Big Brother tracks them 24 hours a day, too.
We're doing our kids and our country no service with this paranoia.
Politically motivated novelty items (Score:1, Interesting)
There is a suspicious device in the grassy area on MP 32 on I 287 northbound in Basking Ridge, NJ. It consists of a low angle camera (~7 ft. above ground level) connected to a large aluminium enclosure installed within 2 ft. of the shoulder. This needs to be checked out (pun on the Brandenburg doctrine not necessarily intended).
The plate is the nexus. How about license plate frames that read "SUBMISSION AS EVIDENCE INVITES JURY NULLIFICATION"? Since the raw image of the plate is necessary for positive identification, it will have to be submitted as evidence to be viewed by the jury. The prosecution will find it necessary to tamper with the evidence (by cropping the frame out from the image or blurring it so that the plate is legible but the frame is not) so as not to 'contaminate the proceeding'. Upon cross examination, the defense will bring up the issue that the 'evidence' had been tampered by submitting the plate frame. If said frame(s) come(s) up missing, then the state's case becomes more suspicious in the eyes of the jury.
If the prosecution claims that the system automatically edits plate frames from the image, then the details of the image capturing system comes into play.
It's all about creating reasonable doubt. This IANAL bullshark can go to hell. Free speech has been exercised.
Next time someone speaks with a sh(r)ill voice, always remember, there is false peace and safety in the gulag.
Re:We can put this on Scottsdale, Arizona and gree (Score:3, Interesting)
I second that. Scottsdale used to be bad about setting up speed traps at the foot of the Papgo Buttes, knowing full well that most drivers aren't conscious of the gravity boost their speed got until it was too late, or that they couldn't slow down fast enough, depending on where the trap was set up. I got nailed on McDowell Road at one of these traps, albeit by a human cop (who apparently felt the need to have a second squad car follow along to ... I don't know, intimidate me or something).
Another couple times, I was nailed by photo radar vans, usually set up on stretches of road where no residences or businesses are -- in other words, areas where people are likely to speed because there is no danger to doing so. It got bad enough at one point that I refused to drive through or into Scottsdale for a couple months, simply because I couldn't deal with the feelings of paranoia it induced.
The 101 loop through Scottsdale, though, is a whole other animal -- stationary cameras that are permanently affixed. The slow-down and speed-up cycle of traffic is maddening. People will crawl along below the speed limit when they know there are cameras around, and then speed up way over the posted limit in between. It's ridiculous and infantile behavior on the part of the drivers, brought about by the nanny state city government treating us like children. Since photo ticket revenues have been drying up, the cities have been quietly lowering the threshold at which the cameras operate -- it used to be 11 mph over the limit, now it's 5 or 6.
When I took a recent defensive driving class, I was one of about 20 people -- roughly half the class -- who were nailed upon a particular stretch of road, Rural Road in Tempe. The instructor treated it as almost a joke, and at one point mentioned that he's all but stopped traveling that road simply to avoid the situation. They apparently lowered the speed limit to 35 mph due to the proximity to ASU, something I had not been aware of at the time of the infraction.
Now, whenever I need to drive along Rural Road, I immediately get paranoid whenever I see a flash. Check the speedometer -- whew, I'm doing 35, must be some other poor sap. But it's still jarring to my nerves.