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German Customs Agents Raid Another Trade Show 139

Posted by kdawson from the multinational-troll dept.
JagsLive tips the news that German customs agents have shown up in force to raid the IFA consumer electronics show in Berlin. (The last time we discussed news like this was during CeBIT, in Hanover, last March.) 220 customs agents seized electronic gear from 69 different booths at IFA. The Register reports that this raid, like the one last spring, was touched off after complaints by patent firm Sisvel. "They seized equipment which will now be checked for evidence of patent breaches. A spokesman for German Customs told us: 'We've raided 69 companies today. We have seized equipment including flat-screen TVs, CD players, set-top boxes and MP3 players.'"
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German Customs Agents Raid Another Trade Show More

German Customs Agents Raid Another Trade Show

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  • Next year, they'll do it in Belgium (Score:3, Insightful)

    by unity100 ( 970058 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:40PM (#24823063) Homepage Journal
    and all you german patent officials can shove your patents up your arses.

    its absolutely appalling to see a european country axeing their own trade. and its not as if germany is a HUGE market like china or whatever.

    • Germany not HUGE as China? yeah right. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:49PM (#24823133)

      O RLY?
      > http://www.countryreports.org/economy/imports.aspx?Countryname=&countryId=91

    • Re:Next year, they'll do it in Belgium (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Elektroschock ( 659467 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:48PM (#24823609)

      Basically it says nothing about validity of the claims, anyone can make the customs raid some companies. In fact when the same company went after Sandisk at a trade fair the troll utterly failed but the public damage to sandisk was done.

      It is an Italian patent troll. The way to solve the patent problem is via the political level. Germany is the heart of European patent culture. There is a new campaign Softsoftwarepatents.org [stopsoftwarepatents.org]

      Trolls want to scare you. The whole software patent system is a mess and its time that industry steps up to fight back. Patents are useless and dangerous in software.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Hurricane78 ( 562437 )

      Guess what: Germany is one of - if not THE - largest exporter in the world.
      Even much stuff from China in fact belongs to German firms.

      Get some perspective!

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by AvitarX ( 172628 )

        It is also the second largest importer (behind the US.

        And with a savings rate of nearly 10% (8% I believe, compared to the US -.25%) it also has a very strong long-term economic outlook (Savings + Technology fuel future economic growth).

      • tell me what is preventing all other companies around the world from setting up factories in china and exporting to everywhere from there. hey - my bad, they ARE already doing it.

        exporting doesnt mean zit. market size is important for having a clout. germany is a small market, doesnt have the clout many expanding markets (china, russia and the like) have in international trade.

    • Amen, Brother/Sister.

      With the sometimes horrid quality of products sold, it is almost impossible for the average consumer to validate the authenticity of any given product.

      If I need to be concerned that if I purchase a product, then resell it at some point in the future, that I may be held liable for that, criminally AND civilly, simply because I cannot not tell whether or not I bought an original/authorized version, then I am NOT going to purchase the product at all.

      This is simply telling me that the simpl

  • Pfft. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gregbot9000 ( 1293772 ) <mckinleg@csusb.edu> on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:41PM (#24823069) Journal
    Patent laws are like landfills, every country has them, and they all stink.
    • First off, nice [reghardware.co.uk] how el Reg mistakes German Customs officers for private security guards, although they are wearing federal seals on their shoulders, have the word "Zoll" ("Customs") written in nice big friendly letters all over their backs, and are wearing anti-person handguns (which are illegal for almnost anyone except the police in Germany)

      Second, as TFA happily drops somewhere between the lines, we don't actually know yet whether the hardware was seized due to alleged patent infringement or allegatio

      • Re:Pfft. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Macrat ( 638047 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:13PM (#24823345)

        I would be hard pressed to find anything bad about this.

        Nothing wrong with employees working booths at trade shows being terrorized by armed thugs?

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Actually it makes sense to do this on a trade show, as it is direct proof that the manufacturer (and not some trader/importer) is infringing on rights. The real issue (for me at least) is not how it was done, but that there are patents for trivial stuff to begin with.
          However, it would be interesting to see, if the german authorities would follow a case of open source license infringement with the same vigor. Maybe one should take a look around for "candidates" on current trade shows ...

        • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Nothing wrong with employees working booths at trade shows being terrorized by armed thugs?

          Huh, that's exactly the way I feel every time I go through US customs.

        • Get a perspective dude! The parent is right. These are German Customs Officers. They are not haphazard security people. In Germany unlike many places when it comes to border issues it is the German Customs Officers that manages it even though it might be miles away from a border.

          They are only doing their jobs and enforcing the rules such as patents, copyrights and trademarks.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dave420 ( 699308 )
          Terrorised? "We are seizing these products pending further investigation" != terrorism.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Lars T. ( 470328 )
        Just in case somebody wonders what the job of the German "Zoll" is: Their English homepage [www.zoll.de].
        And more to the point: When can customs authorities take action? [www.zoll.de]

  • Celebration. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:42PM (#24823079)

    "They seized equipment which will now be checked for evidence of patent breaches. A spokesman for German Customs told us: 'We've raided 69 companies today. We have seized equipment including flat-screen TVs, CD players, set-top boxes and MP3 players.'"

    Now all they need is lots of beer and an upcoming holiday.

  • The burden of proof? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by samcan ( 1349105 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:46PM (#24823109)

    Who has the burden of proof to prove that patents were infringed? Shouldn't Sisvel have to provide evidence that these 69 companies are infringing on patents? Do German custom agents have to secure warrants to seize property? While not the U.S., I cannot believe that Germans would willingly stand for the police taking whatever property they believe could be stolen or based off another's design.

    Also, would 69 different companies all choose Sisvel's products to infringe? I've never even heard of Sisvel!

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Follow the money. The company clearly bribes^W lobbies the right political or two that influences the police. Work up the chain of command and you'll see who is doing this. Examine their "support" and you'll learn why this is happening.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Weezul ( 52464 )

        Sisvel is a patent troll. Yes, they must have their own connections, but ironically they are using laws bought by American companies.

    • Re:The burden of proof? (Score:5, Informative)

      by jim.hansson ( 1181963 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:58PM (#24823221) Homepage
      looks like sisvel is a patent troll, could not really find any real information about what sort of patent they have. patent's seems to include things like CDMA2000, DVB-T and something about DRM.

      • patent's seems to include things like CDMA2000, DVB-T and something about DRM.

        Cool, all stuff I don't want for a change. Troll on! (And my apologies to my European friends, who may actually want DVB-T.)

    • "Do German custom agents have to secure warrants to seize property?"

      Yes, they do.
      And they've obtained such warrants before raiding the fair.

      At least that's what I've read in serveral media and papers here in Germany this weekend.

    • Re:The burden of proof? (Score:4, Informative)

      by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Monday September 01, 2008 @03:07AM (#24827479) Journal

      Shouldn't Sisvel have to provide evidence that these 69 companies are infringing on patents?

      Last time around (2007), they

      "filed claims of patent infringement" ... "in The Netherlands, Germany, and the United Kingdom" ... "seeking an injunction and damages." long before any products were seized.

      Also, would 69 different companies all choose Sisvel's products to infringe? I've never even heard of Sisvel!

      SISVEL is more or less a spin-off formed from Philip's patent-licensing arm.

      Have you heard of Philips? Because, you know, they invented a lot of stuff... including MPEG audio... used in DVB decoders, MP3 player, etc.

      Since then, they've secured the rights to patents from several other companies as well, forming a patent pool, much like MPEG-LA, Audio MPEG, or VIA Licensing.

      In the US we know SISVEL as "Audio MPEG, Inc."

  • What about if they're found innocent? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Firethorn ( 177587 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:48PM (#24823125) Homepage Journal

    Will Sisvel be held responsible if their claims are found groundless?

    From the listing of devices seized, they must be spreading their patent claims pretty wide.

    Either that or it has something to do in common with all those devices - maybe remote control?

  • I'm glad that the agents were armed... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by notseamus ( 1295248 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:51PM (#24823165)

    You know how quickly someone can pull a gun at a trade show...

  • And to think this would be a no brainer if the manufacturers only allowed FOSS Codecs [transmission.cc] to be used on the demo units.

  • Way to go! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheRealMindChild ( 743925 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @05:55PM (#24823187) Homepage Journal
    Regardless if the claims hold merit, there is only one direction the shit will flow. People will quit reserving booths for these shows. Manufacturers will go outside of Germany. Then... what are you left with? Nothing being made in Germany, and no one wanting to exhibit their wares there either.

    • Tit for tat (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Vinegar Joe ( 998110 )
      It'll be interesting to hear the howls when German businessmen start getting detained in Taipei and Shanghai. I have some news, the jails in Asia are not places where you want to spend any time.

      • Re:Tit for tat (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Steve Franklin ( 142698 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:51PM (#24823639) Homepage Journal

        First of all, Sisvel is an ITALIAN company. That's Società Italiana per lo Sviluppo dell'Elettronica. "In fact Sisvel initiated its activity of granting licenses for the use of its patents back in 1986, the first licensees were all the major German television manufactures, and namely: Telefunken, Saba, Nordmende, Philips, ITT, Grundig, Loewe-Opta, Metz, etc." So, basically, the Germans' stake in this is that they have bought into the Sisvel patent scheme and are trying to prevent others from beating them on price by not paying the same licensing fees to the Italian bandits. Kind of reminds you of how the Mafia does business. And for the future?: "Apart from the rights bestowed with its industrial property, a further important patrimony of Sisvel is that represented by the know-how acquired concerning the more efficient and practical channels for economically exploiting industrial property rights. Through the calculated utilisation of this know-how it is quite possible to imagine a development of the company's activities in sectors being different from that of consumer electronics, which up to the present has been the sole sector within which Sisvel has operated." This sounds suspiciously like a machine translation--"a further important patrimony"?--but its clear these characters intend to use their patent income to further enlarge their sphere of operations. Keep your heads down guys. The Axis Powers are on the march again, this time right up your ass!

    • I'm not holding my breath, but the deterrent effect on German business competitiveness something like this can have might be enough to get politicians talking about what's wrong with their patent laws, or at least patent enforcement.

      The PR war over patents has always been promoting innovation versus stifling it, with most business lobbyists lining up on the "they're good" side. In this particular case, though, the sides lined up are basically Sisvel versus everyone else, which may lead to some pro-reform lo

    • I think it depends upon the size of the potential market. If businesses think they can make a profit, they will take a risk to attend the tradeshow. I'll bet that each company affected has somekind of internal review and looks at ways to develop effective countermeasures.Then it will be a business decision - cost of doing business vs. rate of return.

    • "Regardless if the claims hold merit, there is only one direction the shit will flow. People will quit reserving booths for these shows. Manufacturers will go outside of Germany."

      These raids at German fairs have been happening for several years now, and still CeBit und IFA are going quite well.
      So it seems you're predictions are incorrect.

  • World Cup (Score:3, Funny)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:04PM (#24823271) Homepage Journal

    flat-screen TVs, CD players, set-top boxes and MP3 players

    In other news, a world cup qualifier game has just been rescheduled for Mainz, Germany [google.com]. No doubt the stolen gear will require further examination.

  • Sisvel patents (Score:5, Informative)

    by Light303 ( 1335283 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:13PM (#24823343)

    Afaik Sisvel is responsible for collecting the money on Mpeg Patents ... so pretty much everything using DVB-T without paying them fees is considered illegal. ... in the past Sisvel made its money in collecting fees for the volume bar used in all modern TVs. So you can clearly call them a patent troll.

    • Re:Sisvel patents (Score:4, Insightful)

      by jim.hansson ( 1181963 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:19PM (#24823399) Homepage
      funny thing, on the press releases on sisvel homepage the logo has "WE PROTECT IDEAS" printed on it, I thought patents was for implementations of ideas not ideas by it self

      • Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)

        by speedtux ( 1307149 )

        Patents are neither for "ideas" nor for "implementations of ideas". Patents are for what patent law says they are for, and that can't be summed up in a couple of words.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by makomk ( 752139 )
          Nope, patents are meant to be for implementations of ideas (though that's gone out the window in recent years). Ideas are cheap - implementations are the difficult bit.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Lars T. ( 470328 )
        This may come as a surprise to you, but you can't implement an idea if you have no idea first.

  • German Craigslist Ad (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Cutting edge electronics, cheap! Look for van parked behind Customs Office. Prices marked on the bottom side of evidence tags. This sale comes around only once a year so don't miss out!

  • They just need upgrades and they have 0 funding for them so they need to do this.

  • An even hand (Score:2, Interesting)

    by MrKaos ( 858439 )
    I wonder if they will also look for Open Source Licence violations?

    • Make them.

      In other words: make the holder of the OS Trademarks/Rights/whatever file a complaint and they'll have to. But probably the OS-Community is too good tempered to preassure officials hard enough to start a full blown police raid in sight of lots of potential costumers. (whic I usually consider a good thing.)

  • Here's an idea (Score:5, Interesting)

    by HangingChad ( 677530 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:30PM (#24823491) Homepage

    Don't hold the trade show there next year. Don't reward stupidity by continuing to patronize them.

    And, yes, I realize as an American saying that I'm inviting the same reaction to our thuggish behavior.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by delt0r ( 999393 )
      The problem is where do you hold such event? The EU is out. USA is not going to be better. In fact much of the western world has very similar laws with regard to patent law. The only big difference is Software patents, and thats more of a enforceability issue in some countries. That leave parts of Africa, the middle east, India and China. Well my rescurch group has at least one conference in one of those regions every year, so why not.

  • This aphorism comes to mind: (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anik315 ( 585913 ) <anik@alphaco r . n et> on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:35PM (#24823515)
    "Heaven is where the Police are British, the Chefs are French, the Mechanics are German, the Lovers Italian and it's all organised by the Swiss. Hell is where the Chefs are British, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss, the Police are German and it's all organised by the Italians."

    • Re:This aphorism comes to mind: (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:39PM (#24823547)

      Hell is where the Chefs are American, the mechanics are American, the lovers are American, the Police are American and it's all organised by the Americans."

      (Score:-1, Troll)

      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Canada had the opportunity to take the best of many nations: French food, British culture and American entertainment.

        Instead, they wound up with British food, American culture, and French entertainment.

  • The summary says CD players were seized in the raid. This leaves me with a question:

    Why?

    If it is a CD player, what harm could it really do? Are they CD players that they suspect were made to play counterfeit playstation games or something? I'm not familiar with this "sisvel" company - how could they hold patents on CD players?

    • Does the CD player play mp3 files? Some do. If they do, then, in the estimation of the Axis Powers (Italians and Germans), they need a license from Società Italiana per lo Sviluppo dell'Elettronica. By the way, damnedest acronym I've ever seen: Soc...Ital...SVilu...ELett.... These are the kinds of perturbations folks normally go through to get an acronym that actually means something! Why not just call it SISE?

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by arth1 ( 260657 )

        [...]they need a license from Società Italiana per lo Sviluppo dell'Elettronica. By the way, damnedest acronym I've ever seen: Soc...Ital...SVilu...ELett.... These are the kinds of perturbations folks normally go through to get an acronym that actually means something! Why not just call it SISE?

        SISE was already trademarked?

        • Don't see much in the way of SISEes on the internet. Actually, they could have called it SISEL, which does mean something, though not related to their business, unless you picture them tying up the manufacturers and beating them with rubber hoses.

  • At it Again (Score:5, Interesting)

    by segedunum ( 883035 ) on Sunday August 31, 2008 @06:51PM (#24823653)
    This whole Sisvel MP3 patent is being carried along on one thing - the illusion of it being right. Not only are patents like the MP3 one Sisvel says it has arguably not enforceable in Europe, the MP3 patent is so vague you struggle to apply it to the MP3 'format' at all. It doesn't define MP3 or any of its defining features at all. It just arbitrarily describes features of an audio format that could apply to anything (conveniently in most cases, they apply it to MP3). What's interesting is the language they tend to use:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5312696.stm [bbc.co.uk]

    Giustino de Sanctis, head of Sisvel's Audio MPEG division, said that SanDisk had to "follow the standard" because it was "not possible to do it any other way".

    One can only guess what he means by 'the standard' and 'not possible to do it any other way', but then, Sisvel's ability to collect money for this depends on those illusions being true.

  • Stupid! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Slur ( 61510 )

    They seized equipment which will now be checked for evidence of patent breaches. A spokesman for German Customs told us: 'We've raided 69 companies today. We have seized equipment including flat-screen TVs, CD players, set-top boxes and MP3 players.

    They could have simply and politely bought these products (under the archaic theory that the makers are innocent until proven guilty) and tested them for patent breaches. If patent breaches are discovered then you wait for the next trade show and with your warrant or summons in hand you charge your perpetrator.

    Seriously, what is with all this capitalist-driven use of armed policemen to enforce fucking intellectual property laws? This is all business stuff. You find someone breaks your patent you sue them an

  • Why the need to raid a trade show, couldn't they have just bought the gear directly from the companies. This is nothing more than extortion ...

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