Hacker Uncovers Chinese Olympic Fraud 1275
SkeptOlympics writes "A new chapter in the ongoing controversy surrounding China's women's gymnastics team opened today, as search engine hacker stryde.hax found surviving copies of official registration documents issued by China's General Administration of Sport of China. The incriminating documents, expunged by censors from the official site and from Google's document cache, still appear in the document translation cache of Chinese search giant Baidu, here (1) and here (2), showing the age of one of China's gold medal winning gymnasts to be 14 instead of 16, the minimum age for competition presented on her government-issued passport. Now that official government documentation is available, how long will the IOC be able to keep a lid on this scandal?" I imagine the answer is "Forever."
Re:Re-education (Score:5, Informative)
This is actually incredibly likely
See http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/peter_foster/blog/2008/08/20/the_ioc_plays_appeaser_in_beijing [telegraph.co.uk] for recent prior art.
Re:Minimum Age (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Minimum Age (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Minimum Age (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Minimum Age (Score:5, Informative)
There's a minimum age because FIG (Federation Internationale de Gymnastique) implemented one in 1997:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_gymnastics [wikipedia.org]
Why? Well, it's not conclusive, but this article has some good reasons:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080817014559AAZVAvK [yahoo.com]
Re:I imagine so as well (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Even 14 may be a stretch (Score:5, Informative)
Most of the girls on the Chinese team don't look like they've finished puberty - childish faces, no hips, scrawny. Even for Chinese, these athletes would be extreme cases if they were even close to their 'official' age. Cheng Fei is the only one that does. I can't wait to see what they look like in 3 or 4 years.. I guarantee they will all be taller, heavier, and curvier.
While that is probably true, most adult women in China look young compared to what we Westerners are used to. (I lived there for a few years, and I always thought that many of my adult coworkers looked like they were 16 or 17) They are just, in general, shorter, thinner, and less curvey than their western counterparts. So it's hard to judge.
Reason for no action is... (Score:2, Informative)
Kinda fishy reason, but then again, seems to be the case so far.
It has to do with the culture of the sport (Score:5, Informative)
Even though you have tons of sports in the Olympics, each sport is different, especially in culture.
In order to groom a good gymnast you have to start very young and you have to practice constantly, training for much of her life. You must be physically strong, flexible, have incredible coordination and balance, have low weight and low body fat and be relatively fearless. The types of things female gymnasts are asked to do are best performed by teenage girls who have made a life long career out of gymnastics. The problem is that once you realize this, you press gymnasts to train harder and harder, faster and faster. You get into situations were girls train too much, ignore schooling, get injuries because they push too hard, begin to suffer from bolemia and anorexia, etc. To top it off, you typically only get 1 shot at olympic gold, if at all, because in 4 years your "washed up" because the next girl who comes along is the new star and at 20 you can't do the same things you can at 16. At that young age, all you want to do is get your moment in the spotlight, make your coach and your parents happy, and get your pony. You aren't thinking about your long term future, and most gymnasts don't have a future in gymnastics outside of their teen years. If you look at this culture, women's gymnastics no longer looks like such a pretty sport.
At least in men's gymnastics, they can attend at least two olympics, because their events are based more on strength and men can continue to get stronger past their teen years
Just to paint a little more broad picture, look at swimming this year. There's a 40 year old woman swimming for the american team this year. Phelps has been in two and could be in three olympics. Swimmers train hard, but in general they can get better as they get older, as Phelps did, but gymnasts peak early. When have you seen a woman gymnast in more than 1 olympics? When have you seen a 24 year old female gymnast, much less a 40 year old one?
The point of the rule is a stop gap to prevent downward pressure on the average age of a gymnast, and allow them to grow up at least a little bit in the hopes they can make better decisions for themselves, and so that coaches and countries don't start pushing 12 year olds as gymnasts. A 14 year old is a little more fearless than a 16 year old... in a very bad way. One bad decision could cause severe injury, and pushing a girl that young will have lasting effects on her life, mostly bad. I would not put it past communist regimes like China to have a state run program where they don't care about their girls and create a program which churns out 12-14 year old world class gymnasts who in turn are discarded with severe emotional and physical problems later in life.
So in short, it's their to protect the girls from themselves and everyone else who would push them too hard to early. Personally, I'd want the limit higher, because calling those gymnasts "women" is downright upsetting to me, and they still start incredibly young for a fleeting chance at a bit of stardom.
Re:Even 14 may be a stretch (Score:2, Informative)
Re-education is right (Score:5, Informative)
A couple of elderly women (70+) are being reducated [guardian.co.uk] for wanting to protest their eviction and their sin was timing their application during the Olympics. That and the incident where their poster golden boy broke down from too much training and his coach said the extreme pressure [telegraph.co.uk] from the regime was to blame convinces me there is a god up there and he was looking after me for I was not born in China.
Yes, I am being melodramatic and I think it's apt.
It may be the other way around (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Nobody is born on the 1st of January (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Minimum Age (Score:4, Informative)
Certainly worth modding up IMHO. She won despite her age, not because she took drugs or anything. I think she deserves her medal. The only scandal here are the documents, not her competing.
I think you're confused.
More like she won because of her age.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/olympics/s_583045.html [pittsburghlive.com]
Some coaches believe younger gymnasts have an advantage over older ones, because they have greater flexibility and a higher strength-to-weight ratio.
Elaine Jewart, owner of Jewart's Gymnastics in the North Hills, said the bodily changes that come with the onset of puberty affect a gymnast's center of gravity and strength-to-weight ratio, putting strain on the body.
Younger gymnasts' bodies are less susceptible to overuse injuries because they haven't been training as long as older gymnasts, according to Penn State women's gymnastics coach Steve Shephard.
In addition to the physiological advantages, younger gymnasts have a psychological edge.
"An athlete at that age has not had as many serious injuries as older ones," said Jason Butts, an assistant women's gymnastics coach at West Virginia University. "They're not as subject to fear from injuries or the knowledge of what they're actually doing."
And there's a ton of articles saying the exact same thing.
Re:It has to do with the culture of the sport (Score:3, Informative)
A 33 year old Russian Woman who played for ze Germans won the Silver in vault.
Re:Minimum Age (Score:5, Informative)
It's to do with the safety of the competitors (underdeveloped bones etc.) as gymnastics takes much more of a toll on your body than swimming (being exceedingly hig. I would wager being younger, and lighter, also helps on things like the Asymmetric Bars.
If my recollection of Sanjay Gupta's comments on CNN is of any value, I believe the issue is the opposite, namely that underdeveloped bones confer a real advantage to the athlete (they're more "bendy" in addition to being "lighter").
Young competitors are more capable of performing flips and spins and such, but more likely to get injured in competition. This rule was agreed upon by the international gymnastics community due to such injuries.
Re:Nothing will happen (Score:5, Informative)
Does it really matter? Do younger gymnasts have a significant advantage over gymnasts a couple of years older?
In fact it DOES matter. Younger gymnasts do in fact have an advantage. Not to be crude, but puberty is death for an olympic gymnast. Growing boobs and a butt completely throws off the body's center of gravity necessary to do a lot of the tumbling. Thats why you almost never see an olympic gymnast over 21.
Re:Nothing will happen (Score:3, Informative)
Does it really matter? Do younger gymnasts have a significant advantage over gymnasts a couple of years older?
If they didn't, then they wouldn't be entered and there would be no reason to bar them. Small flexible bodies are advantageous for gymnasts.
Re:Minimum Age (Score:5, Informative)
but the jr. events are much lower difficulty in order to have a chance to be competitive, and the jr. events also restrict the difficulties to protect the kids competing. Olympic competition is a lot more dangerous due to the need to execute difficult maneuvers in order to be competitive.
if you don't think Bush is a true tyrant (Score:3, Informative)
Then you really need to peek outside your door. Maybe you haven't noticed, under Bush's tenure: extraordinary rendition, [google.ca] torture, [google.ca] a $3 trillion+ war of aggression, [google.ca] colossal hypocrisy, [salon.com] illegal wiretapping, [google.ca] disgusting cronyism [google.ca] and profiteering, [google.ca] a million dead civilians, [google.ca] galloping environmental destruction [bushgreenwatch.org] ... Need I go on. Bush (and his cabal) has earned the absolute hatred of every civilised individual on the planet. We wait for their Nuremberg. [commondreams.org]
Re:Minimum Age (Score:3, Informative)
The minimum age rule applies specifically to women's gymnastics and it was implemented largely because of injuries. Basically they decided that countries going for younger and younger girls in gymnastics competitions and having them break and pull things and permanently screw up their joints was a bad thing, so they implemented a minimum age rule.
Re:Re-education (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The Big Scandal (Score:3, Informative)
This was from a cache of an Excel spreadsheet from a gov.cn website. If you can't trust the authenticity of documents on a gov.cn website, then I'd say you have far greater problems than some netizens allegedly spreading "rumours".
Re:But Seriously (Score:5, Informative)
It's the new scoring system.
You can get more points for a difficult routine that you perform with a few steps/wobbles than a simpler routing you perform perfectly. So, a double backflip with a twist, ending with a step will give you more points that a "regular" double backflip without a step.
Re:Minimum Age (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Re-education (Score:4, Informative)
While we are being offtopic...
What two wars are we fighting? I don't see any declared hostility with any nation.
If I shot your dog (with a howitzer), claiming having been after a particular flea (Osama bin Fleaden), would that make your dog any less mincemeat?
There is a big word beginning with an H and ending with an Y that fits your statement perfectly, sir. Prefixed with "blatant".
Re:The Value(s) of a Gold Medal (Score:5, Informative)
We have introduced age limits because it is bad for the physical and mental development of younger athletes to compete at such a high level.
It looks like China broke the rules, and the gold needs to be stripped from the effected athletes.
Re:Re-education (Score:3, Informative)
No, but some are doing time for it.
You just don't hear about it.
If the press is stifled in some way how do you think you are going to hear about it?
Re:The Value(s) of a Gold Medal (Score:3, Informative)
We don't allow children to compete at that level because it can prematurely DESTROY THEIR BODIES.
This is really no great mystery.
Re:Let it be (Score:4, Informative)
You misunderstand the issue - being 14 is an advantage, not a disadvantage. The Chinese begin training their gymnasts at age 3, and their peak performance age is generally 12-14; not much older than when they start menstruating. Hips widen, BMI increases, etc. The physiological changes that occur after this age generally make it more difficult for female gymnasts to perform these acrobatics.
Re:It may be the other way around (Score:1, Informative)
This new spreadsheet fits perfectly with the "6-city competition" story, as the information that's on the same row of He Kexin's name clearly shows it's coming from WuHan city, for a "6-city sports competition". Since all the information that suggests 14 years old originated from this one single source, it's highly likely that the error, or forgery happened here, instead of elsewhere.
Re:It has to do with the culture of the sport (Score:2, Informative)
Re:It has to do with the culture of the sport (Score:3, Informative)
Phelps has been in two and could be in three olympics.
Correction, Phelps has already been in 3 Olympics.
Comment removed (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I gotta wonder though... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The Value(s) of a Gold Medal (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The Value(s) of a Gold Medal (Score:5, Informative)
>>It looks like China broke the rules, and the gold needs to be stripped from the effected athletes.
China was also cheating in TKD, with their judges refusing to score good players that would face Chinese athletes next:
http://olympics.thestar.com/2008/article/481950 [thestar.com]
http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/taekwondo/story/2008/08/19/f-olympics-taekwondo-gonda.html [www.cbc.ca]
http://www.tsn.ca/olympics/story/?id=246955&lid=headline&lpos=secStory_main [www.tsn.ca]
http://www.sportsnet.ca/olympics/2008/08/20/olympic_taekwondo_gonda/ [sportsnet.ca]
Re:Nothing will happen (Score:5, Informative)
It was proved that North Korea altered official documents to allow underage girls to participate in world gymnastic competitions and they are currently bared from participation because of their falsification of documents.
Much like this proof should involve the striping of the Chinese medals and a bar on participation by Chinese competitors in international gymnastics should be imposed, probably in the 4 year range.
Re:Let it be (Score:3, Informative)
(NYT article [nytimes.com]).
Younger people are more flexible, more slender hips and less BMI give younger gymnasts a better center of gravity, and it's easier to control lighter, shorter limbs in spins, and they don't land as hard on the dismounts.
Re:Chinese years vs US years. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:if you don't think Bush is a true tyrant (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Re-education (Score:2, Informative)
Mod parent up!
My understanding is that Los Angeles really got the ball rolling in terms of having a sponsored Olympics because they actually managed to turn a profit. Compared to previous events, which had dipped massively in debt, it seemed like a good model for host cities to follow.
Re:The Value(s) of a Gold Medal (Score:5, Informative)
Whoever is arguing that kids are not allowed into the Olympics because of this ridiculous notion of 'destruction of their bodies' is clearly not informed about the age, at which the gymnasts start their training and when they are allowed to compete in various local, regional, national and international (like world) events. How many medals must a gymnast have before they are even allowed to the Olympics in gymnastics? More often than not, these 'kids' already are world champions.
I and many of my colleagues at work (who are mostly Chinese) agree that the Chinese girls are definitely between 12 and 14 years of age, not anywhere near 16.
Re:Re-education (Score:5, Informative)
Well, Los Angeles turned a profit because they didn't undertake the massive new construction that most Olympic venues do. I think I read that there was basically two structures built for the Olympics. Everything else was done in pre-existing stadiums/facilities.
Re:My question is (Score:4, Informative)
A more reasonable group of them would realise that the entire native population of North America at the time wasn't even close to equal to the number of people killed in Maos purges.
China's policies have resulted in the deaths of between 10 and 100 million people. After you factor out the spread of disease from Europe in the Americas, which was tragic, but not malicious for the most part(Germ theory hadn't been invented yet, though apparently Cortez figured out something was killing the Aztecs and gave them smallpox infected blankets), there simply weren't that many natives left in north america. It's safe to say between 100,000 and 11,000,000.
Re:Re-education (Score:2, Informative)