I find it interesting that Slashdotters and the posted articles tend to be quite libertarian on many issues, with one of the exceptions being protection of the tech jobs market. Isn't it a bit hypocritical or am I missing something?
I find it interesting that Slashdotters and the posted articles tend to be quite libertarian on many issues, with one of the exceptions being protection of the tech jobs market. Isn't it a bit hypocritical or am I missing something?
What you're missing is that open borders are more libertarian than the H-1B system, which supposedly serves to create an underclass of workers with much less leverage to get reasonable (compared to other people here) pay.
I'd mod parent down, but I'd rather explain why I disagree. In what follows, "you" refers to "libertarian Slashdotters", not necessarily to the parent.
You say "open borders are more libertarian than the H1-B system", which is true, but a generous H-1B program would mean a more open border than what we have now. The grandparent is correct, that it's hypocritical to oppose a step in what you claim is the "right" direction.
You say a generous H-1B program would "create an underclass of workers" -- but a truly open border would be even worse in this respect, since it would drastically increase the number of U.S. resident programmers willing to work for bottom dollar.
And the elephant in the room here is that visas are irrelevant in this case. I can't think of a job that can be more easily offshored than computer programming. If you tightly restrict immigration of programmers into the U.S., they'll all set up shop in their home countries, where they can charge even less due to lower cost of living.
And if you as a programmer don't think you're going to be seriously competing against China- and India-resident programmers in a few years, you haven't been paying attention.
I say, open the borders, let everybody in, in every profession. It'll depress our wages, but at least it'll keep immigrant workers spending their money in *our* economy, and hopefully some of them will decide to become citizens and come to expect our standards of living.
I say, open the borders, let everybody in, in every profession. It'll depress our wages, but at least it'll keep immigrant workers spending their money in *our* economy, and hopefully some of them will decide to become citizens and come to expect our standards of living.
Caught between a rock and a hard place. If we employ protectionism, jobs will get offshored and that screws us by putting downward pressure on wages at home. If we open the borders, the downward wage pressure is the same and we're screwed. Either way, we're screwed. You're right that having people here keeps more money in our economy, but that's like saying, "well they put a boot in our ass but at least it wasn't a steel-toed boot."
Basically, thanks to globalization and the world being 'flat' and all that, our standard of living is going to get reduced to the lowest common denominator worldwide one way or the other. So, we're fucked, because as long as we adhere to a growth-based economy and as long as population worldwide is growing, we're headed inexorably toward a standard of living like India and away from one like, say, Iceland. Viva la globalization!
If there's any solution, it probably involves draconian protectionism. Protectionism usually hits rich people hardest because it fucks big companies (small companies serving local markets do OK without globalization), so as long as the rich and the big corporations control our politics it ain't happenin.
I'd mod parent down, but I'd rather explain why I disagree.
Good. Moderating a post down simply because you disagree with it is an abuse of the moderation system - you may notice that there are no "-1, Wrong" or "-1, I Disagree" options.
I'd mod parent down, but I'd rather explain why I disagree.
Good. Moderating a post down simply because you disagree with it is an abuse of the moderation system - you may notice that there are no "-1, Wrong" or "-1, I Disagree" options.
However, there is the nebulous "Overrated" which is basically used the same way. Overrated is generally used by Slashdot mods as the "your opinion sucks and I'm modding you down for it" option.
As a former potential H1B inmigrant, I mostly agree with you. Everything you say _is_ true. You are only missing the part that it's too late now.
In my case, now I have a much better job than what I could hope for in the US, but in different countries of Latin America and the Caribbean. Of course, that is a plus, if you are a Latin American, because working in the US would imply being treated as a second class criminal periodically. I lie to think of me as a productive memberof society, though.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday August 16 2008, @09:36AM (#24626191)
I've heard that some companies are finding that the language and time-zone barriers involved often make this totally not worth it.
Because they're doing it wrong. You need to outsource the project management and a level of QA too, you can't go half-way.
Once you've got enough that they can effectively run the project on their own time in their own language, all that's left to do in the States is a final QA check to make sure what was created matches the requirements.
Programming isn't magic. There's nothing about it that makes US programmers better than foreign programmers. If you've been paying attention to the US school system, you'd notice that there is quite a lot that makes foreign programmers superior to US programmers. There's a reason most Linux programmers aren't from the US.
The problem with the H1-B is sh*t like this [wordpress.com]. The WHOLE POINT of the H1-B program was so that when the US had a SHORTAGE of skilled workers in an area of expertise the H1-B would be a CYA until our schools caught up with supply and demand. Instead it has been perverted into a way to turn jobs that require a college degree into McJobs that no American can afford thanks to our high cost of education.
Actually,if you think about it,it is a lot like another popular slashdot subject,copyrights. The copyright laws were originally written to fill an important role: to allow the small playright or musician a LIMITED amount of time to earn money from his creation,in order to encourage him/her to create more and add to our public domain. Just like the H1-B,the corporations perverted it into an unlimited source of revenue creation.
I have NO problem with bringing an Indian over here when we have a SHORTAGE in a field,just as I have no problem with a 15-25 year copyright to allow creators to profit from their creations. What I DO have a problem with is having to try to compete on my own soil with a guy who can live on $15K thanks to his low cost of education while mine will cost in the end nearly $100K,just as I have a problem with my great grandkids being dead before they'll ever see Steamboat Willie end up public domain. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV
Actually the problem is more and more companies are using "How NOT to hire an American" as a damned blueprint. Just looking in the want ads the other day I saw ad after ad like this "Ten years of Java exp required,MSCE required,C++ cert required,ten years exp required in GUI design." How much were they paying for all that experience? $19K. There is NO WAY in hell any American could live on 19K with the amount of debt required to get all those degrees and certs,and they know it. Which is of course why they do it. Then they can bring an indentured servant over from India and treat him like dirt for $19K because if he complains he is on a boat home.
Again,I have NO PROBLEM competing on a fair and level playing field,but that isn't what we got. What we have is the pee wee football team(us) going up against the Denver broncos(them),and the Broncos are allowed to play without penalty. Our companies just can't dump toxins in the river and poison everyone,their companies can,so we can't compete. Likewise we have to pay 100K+ for our education,with the costs going up every day. They pay less than 1/15th what we do for an education,therefor we simply can't compete.
My guess is after the economy collapses because there isn't enough money in the world to deal with the debt we Americans have to take on just to get ahead(I know I'm looking at 85-95K just for my education,not counting the certs I'll need to add) we will probably lock down the borders and go through another period of isolationism. because we simply can't sustain the giant black hole which is the product of all our money leaving this country with less than 1/100 of it ever coming back. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV
Like what,be a dope dealer? Be one of the five bazillion lawyers we are turning out now? if all the jobs that require a strong back are done by illegals,and all the jobs that require a college education are taken by H1-Bs who can work for pennies,what exactly does that leave? They are already bringing H1-Bs to replace nurses [allnurses.com],so what,exactly,is left? Are we all supposed to write songs so we'll have IP to sell?
Let us be honest here,and I'm not trying to be snippy or flame,simply trying to point out the fallacy in yours and the "get your education in India" guy. Do you HONESTLY believe that if Americans were to start massing over there,be it India OR China,that they would welcome us? Do you HONESTLY believe that the SECOND that it looks like immigration is a threat to them that they wouldn't shut us out?
What we are seeing in this country now is the total destruction of our middle class and "working to get ahead",nothing less. Up until now if you worked hard and got an education you did better than your father before you. Now you work hard,you see what jobs are in demand,you get an education in that field,and before you even graduate the jobs that were paying 60K are now being done by a slave for 15K. Tell me,without some crazy slogan like "We should all pack up and move to India",how we are supposed to compete with someone who has to take whatever crappy conditions and pay his employer can come up with or he is thrown out the country. Tell me honestly,how do you compete with that? Just a few years ago we were seeing "tech jobs will soar" and "tech jobs will replace the jobs lost by offshoring". Are you going to authorize the government to pay off ALL the students loans since they listened to what our government and our politicians were saying and got an education in technology?
The simple fact is the giant multi-national corporations want EVERY job,except CEO and lawyer of course,to be a McJob,so they can pay the same wages your average burger flipper gets and make record profits. HEY,I bet it is a LOT cheaper for a law degree in India,we can lower prices by a LOT by bringing lawyers from there over here! Try that and see how quick it gets shot down. Why,because the congress and senate are filled up with lawyers,that's why. I bet we can get CEOs much cheaper too! Never happen. Just good old fashioned corporate greed at its most disgusting. I honestly hope we turn it around,but I just don't see it happening.But as always this is my 02c,YMMV
I've worked with offshore programmers in both China and India. Time zones make it difficult, but the Indian company moved their working hours so there'd be more overlap. China had swing shifts going. Getting someone to talk to wasn't hard.
Understanding them was difficult. I found the Indians to have better English, both in terms of grammar AND accent.
Both produced working code and very, very good technical documentation.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday August 16 2008, @09:57AM (#24626321)
As a H1B visa holder, let me just squash this myth right here: H1B visa holders can quit and change jobs at will. If you quit, you have 60 days to find a new job before you are asked to leave the country. Most people I know find a job first and then leave. And there are no binding contracts or such associated with the visa. And there's only minor paperwork involved when changing jobs. So yeah, your above-mentioned scenario is total hogwash.
But hey, don't let me and my facts get into your way of perpetuating anti-immigration propaganda.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday August 16 2008, @10:26AM (#24626545)
No, it's not hogwash.
I've worked for employers who do this routinely.
But let's talk about the process. If a visa holder wants to leave, he must first find another employer willing to accept (a) H1B's (which eliminates all but large businesses (b) H1B transfers (which eliminates even more companies).
If you are an H1B, and you make noise about leaving, your employer simply calls the IMS and you have a few days to leave the country.
Let's be real here... if H1B visa holders had freedom of movement, then their wages would be no different than prevailing wages. The fact that you have skilled professionals from overseas working for $25-50K (I made more than that out of college 30 years ago) either says that (a) the wage supply is too large (which undercuts the arguments for H1B's) (b) there is an economic barrier people with H1B's that prevents them from exercising their rights.
I don't have an ax to grind here, and I think that there really should *not* be a barrier for skilled people to come into the United States, but I think it benefits everyone to eliminate the H1B and simply allow any highly skilled person to enter the United States. I don't see the downside, provided they have the same ability to negotiate wages as people who live here.
As a manager who hires H1B on a regular basis, I can attest that its not as easy as you say to get INS/USCIS to deport an H1B.
Once an H1B gets a job as an employee (not a contractor) his immigration status is kind of immaterial, its only important as an expense for visa renewals and green card application.
Once a H1B is an employee he is/has to be treated in a similar way as any other employee - failing to do will be inviting discrimination lawsuits.
Almost all midsize/large corporations do not go all the way up to USCIS/INS to get a visa cancelled just because of trivial work/life balance mismatch between employee and job requirements. Off course serious misconduct is always pursued to see that the employee returns to his home country. This is done to maintain good company image with the INS/USCIS. When the wheels in HR turn to get the visa canceled, its already being transferred to another employee.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday August 16 2008, @11:56AM (#24627179)
H1B visa holders can quit and change jobs at will.
Sounds like you are not applying for a green card. Most H1B visa holders are looking for green cards. The process takes at least 3 years - probably more now with all the DHS bullshit. In order to get a green card, your employer has to sponsor you. If you change jobs, that means you change employers which means starting the green card application process all over again. Since H1B visas (last I checked) can only be used for up to 6 years max, changing employers after the first year or two puts the green card at risk. Once the H1B visa expires, all green card application paperwork is terminated.
This is partly true. There are 3 stages in the Green Card process - PERM, I-140 and I-485 (a.k.a. Adjustment of Status). The day the PERM application is filed is called the priority date and roughly decides your place in the queue. Roughly because the USCIS frequently processes out of order.
After the I-485 has been filed and pending for over 180 days and the I-140 has been approved, the employee can switch jobs as long as it's in a similar position. It's also possible to recapture the priority date by having another employer file for PERM and I-140 if the old I-140 has been approved and not been revoked by the previous employer.
As long as you have an approved PERM and/or I-140 it's fairly easy to keep extending the H-1B indefinitely beyond the 6 year period till your I-485 gets approved. You can also choose to work on EAD instead of H-1B if the I-485 application is pending.
The biggest hiccup in the Green Card process is the per country limit of 7% of the quota which keeps applicants from large countries like India and China waiting in line indefinitely while applicants from most other countries get approved a lot sooner because they are not affected by the per country quotas.
H1-B is seen as a potential path to citizenship, and always has been. It's intended to result in immigration of skilled labour. There are alternate programs available via things like Nafta which are NOT intended to result in immigration. TN-1 Visa is an example. I've worked in the U.S. on a TN-1 visa. TN-1 is good for a year, and allows for unlimited renewal. It does not however allow one to apply for a greencard, and does not simplify the immigration process in the least; rather it complicates it if that is
Try looking around anywhere in the South. It's a different story here.
Of course, we have hospitals in the red left and right due to abuse by illegals, too. Parkland Memorial in Dallas is being abused, over 70% of their maternity-ward births to illegals now - and that doesn't even count the unpaid bills of all the OTHER abuse of the system.
Or to put it another way: to make stuff, you can either bring the workers to where the factories are, or vice versa. US immigration policy prevents the labor from moving... so the factories move to where the labor is.
It's futile to restrict labor while allowing free flow of goods.
Tech jobs are an extreme case: there are no raw materials, there is no factory, the products are nothing but data bits. Moving the jobs elsewhere is a piece of cake, so restricting immigration is utterly pointless.
It's not as if the groups that oppose the H-1B program (Programmers Guild, NumbersUSA, etc.) by calling it "indentured servitude" are advocating for improvements in the Employment Based Immigration system (a.k.a. Green Card) where someone from India and China could have to wait for 6-10 years to get a Green Card. They've opposed all immigration reforms that would bring relief to the estimated 500K - 1 million people stuck in the backlog.
It's nice to throw in terms like "open borders" to voice your opposi
a controversial 'emergency' rule change by the Department of Homeland Security to permit foreign students to work continuously in the US for two-and-a-half years after graduation without an H-1B visa.
A good percentage of you here on/. voted for those chuckleheads. So big surprise when they turn around and dick you by making it easier for your employer to replace you with someone making cardboard slum wages. And even if the next president cuts it off the day they take office, the people already here will be able to stay to middle of their term.
Nice.
Funny how the rules on the war on terror manage to line up with corporate interests, isn't it? Just hilarious.
People like Judge Faith Hochberg ignore the obvious fact that Silicon Valley would not exist without the Midwestern middle class WASPs. As Tom Wolfe documents in his Forbes article: Robert Noyce and His Congregation [forbes.com],[August 25, 1997] virtually all of the essential inventions upon which Silicon Valley was founded were created by the much-derided, non-"vibrant", "white-bread", "middle class" of "fly-over country".
Last month I asked the aging Bob Johnsonâ"former CTO of Burroughs Corporation when it was a leading mainframe company in Minneapolis where he developed the magnetic ink you see on the bottom of your checksâ"what he thought caused the loss of the Midwestern high tech leadership to the coasts, and he said it was the financial dominance of the coasts.
That squares with what I observed while at Control Data Corporation/Cray Research, Inc.
The reason Bill Norris and Seymour Cray were able to start CDC thence Cray Research was because they violated SEC regs and went around selling stock at PTA meetings, making a lot of middle class people retire very comfortably. My late father bought some Cray stock early on which helped greatly with his retirement.
When I was at CDC in Arden Hills, MN attempting to deploy the mass market version of the PLATO network with Internet-like capabilities (the system that Ray Ozzie (Bill Gates' replacement at Microsoft) cut his teeth on) in 1980 the primary resistance was from a middle management that, due to the financial press' hostility toward Norris's vision of a society disintermediated by computer networking, small high-tech farms and locally produced and consumed essentialsâ"had itself grown hostile to Norris.
My proposed solution is simple to state but will perhaps require a war to institute:
Replace all taxes on economic activity with a tax on net-assets, assessed at their in-place liquidation value, at the risk free interest rate (which according to modern portfolio theory is the short-term US Treasury rate) so as to extract all economic rents from the private sector, and then, to prevent public sector rent-seeking in pork-barrel politics, disperse those funds evenly in a dividend to all citizens, as the beneficiaries of the land-trust called the United States.
That will not only stop the vicious centralization of power in the private and public sectors, but it will clarify the role of immigrationâ"it is a dilution of the benefits intended for the Posterity of the Founders of the land trust called The United States of America.
People who pretend to be the media should be cautioned against editorializing new facts into existence. Show does not say:
she failed to see how an increased labor supply could result in wage depression for engineers and computer workers.
She says:
in no sense could "wage depression through the economic forces of supply and demand" rise to the level of justiciable injury, rather than the "conjecture or hypothetical."
Instead of assuming the judge is an idiot, why not favor the much more likely scenario that the suit failed to show how the plaintiffs would be harmed and to what degree. They are claiming they are would be harmed by having their salaries reduced, when in fact they are "employed" or "underemployed". You can't claim you'll be harmed by having you salary reduce if your salary is already zero.
It is not the judges job to "see" how harm could be done. It is the plaintiff's job to demonstrate how harm will be done. If they cannot do that, the judge's hands are tied.
the suit failed to show how the plaintiffs would be harmed and to what degree
More like, she rued that "they took our jobs" isn't a complaint on which relief can be granted under the law. The last time this kind of issue arose was when black laborers were competing for jobs with white laborers, and were willing to work for much less, and the upshot was that the unions demanded the minimum wage laws.
Instead of H-1B indentured servitude, gilded as it may be, we should fast track such people for citizenship. Any country that can make America's marginal tax rates look good or otherwise sufficiently pisses off their people DESERVES to lose their best and brightest. America has traditionally been the common meeting place of the world's best and brightest and I'd hate to see that change.
But the big corporations that give $megabucks to the Democratic and Republican parties, slightly more to whichever is dominant at the time, really like the H-1B system so I don't expect much to change. The fast-track citizenship idea is from National Review.
In New Zealand they have a pretty reasonable solution solution; the minimum salary for a foreign worker on their equivalent of an H-1B visa is $55,000. Since your salary is usually a pretty direct measure of how scarce people with your abilities/training are and how much demand there is, anyone who is coming into the county to fill a shortage in a particular field should almost by definition be getting a relatively high salary.
I seriously disaqgree with my conservative collegues and liberal union folks who argue against immigration to the United States. I am the descendant of immigrants, as is nearly everyone else in the USA, and our ancestors came when there were no rules to immigration.
I would argue that people who are motivated enough to leave their homelands to come to the USA are motivated enough to work hard and succeed and I have 200 years of outstanding economic growth and opportunity to back me up. Every time this country has opened its borders, we have gotten increased opportunity, increased social dynamism, all pumping the engine of capitalism and driving the USA to ever greater success.
Clamping down on Phds and graduate students from American universities is about the stupidest immigration policy that one could ever devise. If someone has come to this country to study and obtain a university degree, I would think that proves that they are the stuff we want our citizens to be.
The issue of immigration has split the Republican Party right down the middle, but I for one think that Bush and McCain were on the right side of the issue and it is a shame that the odd coalition of labor activists and xenophobes combined to bring what would have been an outstanding immigration bill dead in its tracks. Regardless of who is elected, I hope that saner heads will prevail in both parties, this time around, and America will once again live up to the promise of the statue of liberty, "Give me your poor, tired huddled masses yearning to breath free."... or, in the very least, "give me all of your phds in mechanical, electrical, and computer engineering, in fact, just give me all of them and your undergrads too."
The Department of Homeland Security makes a rule change to allow additional foreign workers in the engineering and software fields. No doubt they see areas such as telecommunications, security, aviation and DoD work as being low risk. But try to get some Mexicans in here to pick lettuce and we have to build a wall to stop it.
I understand US industries motivation in this area. But aside from the DHS reviewing proposed visa procedures, I can't understand why they should be the ones to sponsor such a regulation. This would seem to fall more within the charter of the Dept. of Commerce. If DHS has no security work to keep it busy, perhaps its time to pull the plug.
Reality: If that were true then the typical H1-B would a Nobel prize winning scientist. The truth is, the typical H1-B is an average student, hired right out of college with only a four year degree. The typical H1-B is no more qualified than the US graduates who are not getting jobs. The H1-Bs are just cheaper. And because of the lottery nature of the H1-B process, employers do not even know who they are getting. So how do employers know that they are getting the best and brightest?
Also, isn't it funny that almost all of the "best and brightest" come from countries where people earn as little as $1 a day? If it's really about the "best and brightest" then why aren't there more European H1-Bs?
---
Myth: H1-Bs are needed because of the critical shortage of US technology workers
Reality: Serious academic studies clearly indicate that skills shortage is a myth.
> These studies done at Duke aren't alone in their assessment that there is in fact no skills shortage. They're backed up by other studies conducted by RAND Corporation, The Urban Institute and Stanford University, among others, all of which settle upon the same conclusion: There is no shortage of educated IT workers.
Myth: H1-Bs do compete unfairly, because H1-Bs are paid the prevailing wage
Reality:
> According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) as the measurement of U.S. wages, and the H-1B LCA disclosure data to measure H-1B wages, 90% of H-1B employers' prevailing wage claims for programmers were below the median U.S. wage for that occupation and location, with 62% of them falling in the bottom 25th percentile of U.S. wages, said Miano [founder of the Programmer's Guild].
> Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology (currently on leave) and a research associate at the Economic Policy Institute, pointed to USCIS's most recent report to Congress, which shows that the medium wage in 2005 for new H-1B computing professionals was just $50,000 -- even lower than the entry-level wages that a newly graduated tech worker with a bachelor's degree and no experience would command.
According to the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Service's (USCIS) annual report to Congress in 2005, the aggregate data for computing professionals lend support to the argument that the practice of paying H-1Bs below-market wages is quite common.
H1-Bs are hired at four different skill levels, "4" being the highest. But most H1-Bs are hired for the lowest "1" level jobs - regardless of what kind of work the H1-Bs actually do.
---
Myth: In the USA enrollment in technical disciplines is declining. Proof the USA needs to hire more foreign workers
Reality: This myth is designed to confuse cause and effect. Employers are not forced to hire offshore because enrollment is down. Rather, enrollment is down because of aggressive offshoring by employers. But even with enrollments down, there are still more than enough US workers.
> Due to both outsourcing and insourcing, many young people are concluding that technology is a bad place to invest their time," said Mark Thoma, a professor of economics at the University of Oregon in Eugene.
Seriously, 15k for skilled labor is crazy. If the US wants to offer wages like that, all the best workers will be going off to a first world country like India.
That's because you don't understand differences between labor and commodity. More oil means lower prices; more workers means more jobs and more work done.
The more workers you have, the larger is your economy, and EVERYBODY is better off.
If you don't understand the concept at least compare our economy in 2008 with that in 1492 (pre-immigration).
That's because you don't understand differences between labor and commodity. More oil means lower prices; more workers means more jobs and more work done.
Maybe overall and eventually, but it takes time for things to adjust.
The more workers you have, the larger is your economy, and EVERYBODY is better off.
That doesn't work if the new workers are all in one field, you end up with high unemployment and/or low pay for a while until people get displaced to other lines of work ("I just can't find a job as a programmer any more, I think I'll learn how to farm switchgrass instead.").
I like your point about new workers all in one field. But I believe right now most immigrants are actually in the unskilled labor pool, including the 12 million illegal immigrants and most of the legal immigrants in the "family-sponsored" category.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday August 16 2008, @08:50AM (#24625919)
As at IT professional, I hate the H1-B Visa program and want to see it eliminated. This judge is a complete idiot. Just because a person is from India or Bangladesh does NOT make that person a better IT worker.
Do you hate me too, or only people from India and Bangladesh?
(I'm in the process of getting an H1-B visa, but I'm white and British - so does that make it okay? Or are you opposed to all foreigners? I thought the USA was founded on immigration, you know...)
I thought the USA was founded on immigration, you know
It was built by immigrants, but strictly speaking, it was founded on tax revolt. We didn't like sending payment to England just because you were trying to pay for the French and Indian war.
As a native Brit living in America on a green card, I don't like sending payment to the IRS to pay for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Ah, the cycle of life.
I thought the USA was founded on immigration, you know
It was built by immigrants, but strictly speaking, it was founded on tax revolt. We didn't like sending payment to England just because you were trying to pay for the French and Indian war.
-jcr
We really didn't fix immigration as a part of our national identity until after the Civil War. Prior to that time, most Americans traced their ancestry to Britain. Irish, Germans, Poles, etc, didn't start coming here until well after the country was founded, and didn't kick into high gear until after the War between the States, which, consequently, is also about the time anti-immigrant sentiment really took off. And that "nation of immigrants" identity hasn't exactly been static since then. After World War
I am for a reduction of ALL immigration, not just the H-1B.In my opinion, the the H1-B is just stupid. We should just train and hire our own people. We should also ban sending our jobs overseas just so corporations can give their CEOs 20 million dollar a year bonuses.
Speaking as a computer professional who lives and works outside the USA[0], I strongly agree with you[1] and would encourage all US citizens to lobby their politicians to adopt the above position (to paraphrase Randy Bush).
I absolutely do not feel sorry for someone with an immigrant comes in and "takes your job" for less pay.
An immigrant, a younger worker, any other person willing to do the job for less, the principle is the same: a job is not a right, it's a business transaction in which either party is free to go and find a better deal if they can.
Maybe -- but do you know something? *I* am the supplier, and NOT the customer. As to the customer -- they get the benefit of dealing with professionals.
'Cause the shrinking middle class is tired of seeing our funds be sucked up by other Americans because they had the money and connections to rip us off.
welcome to the country (Score:4, Insightful)
Welcome to the country of unlimited possibilities ... ... to get ripped off!
Really, both the H1-B Visa holders and US employees are at a loss here.
Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it interesting that Slashdotters and the posted articles tend to be quite libertarian on many issues, with one of the exceptions being protection of the tech jobs market. Isn't it a bit hypocritical or am I missing something?
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it interesting that Slashdotters and the posted articles tend to be quite libertarian on many issues, with one of the exceptions being protection of the tech jobs market. Isn't it a bit hypocritical or am I missing something?
What you're missing is that open borders are more libertarian than the H-1B system, which supposedly serves to create an underclass of workers with much less leverage to get reasonable (compared to other people here) pay.
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd mod parent down, but I'd rather explain why I disagree. In what follows, "you" refers to "libertarian Slashdotters", not necessarily to the parent.
You say "open borders are more libertarian than the H1-B system", which is true, but a generous H-1B program would mean a more open border than what we have now. The grandparent is correct, that it's hypocritical to oppose a step in what you claim is the "right" direction.
You say a generous H-1B program would "create an underclass of workers" -- but a truly open border would be even worse in this respect, since it would drastically increase the number of U.S. resident programmers willing to work for bottom dollar.
And the elephant in the room here is that visas are irrelevant in this case. I can't think of a job that can be more easily offshored than computer programming. If you tightly restrict immigration of programmers into the U.S., they'll all set up shop in their home countries, where they can charge even less due to lower cost of living.
And if you as a programmer don't think you're going to be seriously competing against China- and India-resident programmers in a few years, you haven't been paying attention.
I say, open the borders, let everybody in, in every profession. It'll depress our wages, but at least it'll keep immigrant workers spending their money in *our* economy, and hopefully some of them will decide to become citizens and come to expect our standards of living.
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Insightful)
I say, open the borders, let everybody in, in every profession. It'll depress our wages, but at least it'll keep immigrant workers spending their money in *our* economy, and hopefully some of them will decide to become citizens and come to expect our standards of living.
Caught between a rock and a hard place. If we employ protectionism, jobs will get offshored and that screws us by putting downward pressure on wages at home. If we open the borders, the downward wage pressure is the same and we're screwed. Either way, we're screwed. You're right that having people here keeps more money in our economy, but that's like saying, "well they put a boot in our ass but at least it wasn't a steel-toed boot."
Basically, thanks to globalization and the world being 'flat' and all that, our standard of living is going to get reduced to the lowest common denominator worldwide one way or the other. So, we're fucked, because as long as we adhere to a growth-based economy and as long as population worldwide is growing, we're headed inexorably toward a standard of living like India and away from one like, say, Iceland. Viva la globalization!
If there's any solution, it probably involves draconian protectionism. Protectionism usually hits rich people hardest because it fucks big companies (small companies serving local markets do OK without globalization), so as long as the rich and the big corporations control our politics it ain't happenin.
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Informative)
I'd mod parent down, but I'd rather explain why I disagree.
Good. Moderating a post down simply because you disagree with it is an abuse of the moderation system - you may notice that there are no "-1, Wrong" or "-1, I Disagree" options.
Parent
However... (Score:4, Funny)
I'd mod parent down, but I'd rather explain why I disagree.
Good. Moderating a post down simply because you disagree with it is an abuse of the moderation system - you may notice that there are no "-1, Wrong" or "-1, I Disagree" options.
However, there is the nebulous "Overrated" which is basically used the same way. Overrated is generally used by Slashdot mods as the "your opinion sucks and I'm modding you down for it" option.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
As a former potential H1B inmigrant, I mostly agree with you.
Everything you say _is_ true. You are only missing the part that it's too late now.
In my case, now I have a much better job than what I could hope for in the US, but in different countries of Latin America and the Caribbean. Of course, that is a plus, if you are a Latin American, because working in the US would imply being treated as a second class criminal periodically. I lie to think of me as a productive memberof society, though.
For other peopl
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Insightful)
I've heard that some companies are finding that the language and time-zone barriers involved often make this totally not worth it.
Because they're doing it wrong. You need to outsource the project management and a level of QA too, you can't go half-way.
Once you've got enough that they can effectively run the project on their own time in their own language, all that's left to do in the States is a final QA check to make sure what was created matches the requirements.
Programming isn't magic. There's nothing about it that makes US programmers better than foreign programmers. If you've been paying attention to the US school system, you'd notice that there is quite a lot that makes foreign programmers superior to US programmers. There's a reason most Linux programmers aren't from the US.
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with the H1-B is sh*t like this [wordpress.com]. The WHOLE POINT of the H1-B program was so that when the US had a SHORTAGE of skilled workers in an area of expertise the H1-B would be a CYA until our schools caught up with supply and demand. Instead it has been perverted into a way to turn jobs that require a college degree into McJobs that no American can afford thanks to our high cost of education.
Actually,if you think about it,it is a lot like another popular slashdot subject,copyrights. The copyright laws were originally written to fill an important role: to allow the small playright or musician a LIMITED amount of time to earn money from his creation,in order to encourage him/her to create more and add to our public domain. Just like the H1-B,the corporations perverted it into an unlimited source of revenue creation.
I have NO problem with bringing an Indian over here when we have a SHORTAGE in a field,just as I have no problem with a 15-25 year copyright to allow creators to profit from their creations. What I DO have a problem with is having to try to compete on my own soil with a guy who can live on $15K thanks to his low cost of education while mine will cost in the end nearly $100K,just as I have a problem with my great grandkids being dead before they'll ever see Steamboat Willie end up public domain. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually the problem is more and more companies are using "How NOT to hire an American" as a damned blueprint. Just looking in the want ads the other day I saw ad after ad like this "Ten years of Java exp required,MSCE required,C++ cert required,ten years exp required in GUI design." How much were they paying for all that experience? $19K. There is NO WAY in hell any American could live on 19K with the amount of debt required to get all those degrees and certs,and they know it. Which is of course why they do it. Then they can bring an indentured servant over from India and treat him like dirt for $19K because if he complains he is on a boat home.
Again,I have NO PROBLEM competing on a fair and level playing field,but that isn't what we got. What we have is the pee wee football team(us) going up against the Denver broncos(them),and the Broncos are allowed to play without penalty. Our companies just can't dump toxins in the river and poison everyone,their companies can,so we can't compete. Likewise we have to pay 100K+ for our education,with the costs going up every day. They pay less than 1/15th what we do for an education,therefor we simply can't compete.
My guess is after the economy collapses because there isn't enough money in the world to deal with the debt we Americans have to take on just to get ahead(I know I'm looking at 85-95K just for my education,not counting the certs I'll need to add) we will probably lock down the borders and go through another period of isolationism. because we simply can't sustain the giant black hole which is the product of all our money leaving this country with less than 1/100 of it ever coming back. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:4, Insightful)
Like what,be a dope dealer? Be one of the five bazillion lawyers we are turning out now? if all the jobs that require a strong back are done by illegals,and all the jobs that require a college education are taken by H1-Bs who can work for pennies,what exactly does that leave? They are already bringing H1-Bs to replace nurses [allnurses.com],so what,exactly,is left? Are we all supposed to write songs so we'll have IP to sell?
Let us be honest here,and I'm not trying to be snippy or flame,simply trying to point out the fallacy in yours and the "get your education in India" guy. Do you HONESTLY believe that if Americans were to start massing over there,be it India OR China,that they would welcome us? Do you HONESTLY believe that the SECOND that it looks like immigration is a threat to them that they wouldn't shut us out?
What we are seeing in this country now is the total destruction of our middle class and "working to get ahead",nothing less. Up until now if you worked hard and got an education you did better than your father before you. Now you work hard,you see what jobs are in demand,you get an education in that field,and before you even graduate the jobs that were paying 60K are now being done by a slave for 15K. Tell me,without some crazy slogan like "We should all pack up and move to India",how we are supposed to compete with someone who has to take whatever crappy conditions and pay his employer can come up with or he is thrown out the country. Tell me honestly,how do you compete with that? Just a few years ago we were seeing "tech jobs will soar" and "tech jobs will replace the jobs lost by offshoring". Are you going to authorize the government to pay off ALL the students loans since they listened to what our government and our politicians were saying and got an education in technology?
The simple fact is the giant multi-national corporations want EVERY job,except CEO and lawyer of course,to be a McJob,so they can pay the same wages your average burger flipper gets and make record profits. HEY,I bet it is a LOT cheaper for a law degree in India,we can lower prices by a LOT by bringing lawyers from there over here! Try that and see how quick it gets shot down. Why,because the congress and senate are filled up with lawyers,that's why. I bet we can get CEOs much cheaper too! Never happen. Just good old fashioned corporate greed at its most disgusting. I honestly hope we turn it around,but I just don't see it happening.But as always this is my 02c,YMMV
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Informative)
I've worked with offshore programmers in both China and India. Time zones make it difficult, but the Indian company moved their working hours so there'd be more overlap. China had swing shifts going. Getting someone to talk to wasn't hard.
Understanding them was difficult. I found the Indians to have better English, both in terms of grammar AND accent.
Both produced working code and very, very good technical documentation.
--Mike
Parent
Re:I think you're missing the point (Score:4, Informative)
As a H1B visa holder, let me just squash this myth right here: H1B visa holders can quit and change jobs at will. If you quit, you have 60 days to find a new job before you are asked to leave the country. Most people I know find a job first and then leave. And there are no binding contracts or such associated with the visa. And there's only minor paperwork involved when changing jobs. So yeah, your above-mentioned scenario is total hogwash.
But hey, don't let me and my facts get into your way of perpetuating anti-immigration propaganda.
Parent
B.S. (Score:5, Interesting)
No, it's not hogwash.
I've worked for employers who do this routinely.
But let's talk about the process. If a visa holder wants to leave, he must first find another employer willing to accept (a) H1B's (which eliminates all but large businesses (b) H1B transfers (which eliminates even more companies).
If you are an H1B, and you make noise about leaving, your employer simply calls the IMS and you have a few days to leave the country.
Let's be real here... if H1B visa holders had freedom of movement, then their wages would be no different than prevailing wages. The fact that you have skilled professionals from overseas working for $25-50K (I made more than that out of college 30 years ago) either says that (a) the wage supply is too large (which undercuts the arguments for H1B's) (b) there is an economic barrier people with H1B's that prevents them from exercising their rights.
I don't have an ax to grind here, and I think that there really should *not* be a barrier for skilled people to come into the United States, but I think it benefits everyone to eliminate the H1B and simply allow any highly skilled person to enter the United States. I don't see the downside, provided they have the same ability to negotiate wages as people who live here.
Parent
Re:B.S. (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:I think you're missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
H1B visa holders can quit and change jobs at will.
Sounds like you are not applying for a green card. Most H1B visa holders are looking for green cards. The process takes at least 3 years - probably more now with all the DHS bullshit. In order to get a green card, your employer has to sponsor you. If you change jobs, that means you change employers which means starting the green card application process all over again. Since H1B visas (last I checked) can only be used for up to 6 years max, changing employers after the first year or two puts the green card at risk. Once the H1B visa expires, all green card application paperwork is terminated.
Parent
Re:I think you're missing the point (Score:4, Informative)
After the I-485 has been filed and pending for over 180 days and the I-140 has been approved, the employee can switch jobs as long as it's in a similar position. It's also possible to recapture the priority date by having another employer file for PERM and I-140 if the old I-140 has been approved and not been revoked by the previous employer.
As long as you have an approved PERM and/or I-140 it's fairly easy to keep extending the H-1B indefinitely beyond the 6 year period till your I-485 gets approved. You can also choose to work on EAD instead of H-1B if the I-485 application is pending.
The biggest hiccup in the Green Card process is the per country limit of 7% of the quota which keeps applicants from large countries like India and China waiting in line indefinitely while applicants from most other countries get approved a lot sooner because they are not affected by the per country quotas.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
H1-B is seen as a potential path to citizenship, and always has been. It's intended to result in immigration of skilled labour.
There are alternate programs available via things like Nafta which are NOT intended to result in immigration. TN-1 Visa is an example. I've worked in the U.S. on a TN-1 visa.
TN-1 is good for a year, and allows for unlimited renewal. It does not however allow one to apply for a greencard, and does not simplify the immigration process in the least; rather it complicates it if that is
Re:The US already has wage distortion. (Score:5, Informative)
Your post is almost 100% bullshit political conjecture about 'illegals,' corporate american, and employment. BTW, RN salaries here:
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000001.html [salary.com]
Yeah, they make 60k, not 10-20k.
Parent
Re:The US already has wage distortion. (Score:4, Informative)
Try looking around anywhere in the South. It's a different story here.
Of course, we have hospitals in the red left and right due to abuse by illegals, too. Parkland Memorial in Dallas is being abused, over 70% of their maternity-ward births to illegals now - and that doesn't even count the unpaid bills of all the OTHER abuse of the system.
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Insightful)
Or to put it another way: to make stuff, you can either bring the workers to where the factories are, or vice versa. US immigration policy prevents the labor from moving ... so the factories move to where the labor is.
It's futile to restrict labor while allowing free flow of goods.
Tech jobs are an extreme case: there are no raw materials, there is no factory, the products are nothing but data bits. Moving the jobs elsewhere is a piece of cake, so restricting immigration is utterly pointless.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's nice to throw in terms like "open borders" to voice your opposi
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Protection of the tech jobs market (Score:5, Funny)
They took our jobs!!!
Everyone on the pile!
Parent
Don't complain (Score:5, Insightful)
a controversial 'emergency' rule change by the Department of Homeland Security to permit foreign students to work continuously in the US for two-and-a-half years after graduation without an H-1B visa.
A good percentage of you here on /. voted for those chuckleheads. So big surprise when they turn around and dick you by making it easier for your employer to replace you with someone making cardboard slum wages. And even if the next president cuts it off the day they take office, the people already here will be able to stay to middle of their term.
Nice.
Funny how the rules on the war on terror manage to line up with corporate interests, isn't it? Just hilarious.
Who really built Silicon Valley? (Score:5, Interesting)
Last month I asked the aging Bob Johnsonâ"former CTO of Burroughs Corporation when it was a leading mainframe company in Minneapolis where he developed the magnetic ink you see on the bottom of your checksâ"what he thought caused the loss of the Midwestern high tech leadership to the coasts, and he said it was the financial dominance of the coasts.
That squares with what I observed while at Control Data Corporation/Cray Research, Inc.
The reason Bill Norris and Seymour Cray were able to start CDC thence Cray Research was because they violated SEC regs and went around selling stock at PTA meetings, making a lot of middle class people retire very comfortably. My late father bought some Cray stock early on which helped greatly with his retirement.
When I was at CDC in Arden Hills, MN attempting to deploy the mass market version of the PLATO network with Internet-like capabilities (the system that Ray Ozzie (Bill Gates' replacement at Microsoft) cut his teeth on) in 1980 the primary resistance was from a middle management that, due to the financial press' hostility toward Norris's vision of a society disintermediated by computer networking, small high-tech farms and locally produced and consumed essentialsâ"had itself grown hostile to Norris.
My proposed solution is simple to state but will perhaps require a war to institute:
Replace all taxes on economic activity with a tax on net-assets, assessed at their in-place liquidation value, at the risk free interest rate (which according to modern portfolio theory is the short-term US Treasury rate) so as to extract all economic rents from the private sector, and then, to prevent public sector rent-seeking in pork-barrel politics, disperse those funds evenly in a dividend to all citizens, as the beneficiaries of the land-trust called the United States.
That will not only stop the vicious centralization of power in the private and public sectors, but it will clarify the role of immigrationâ"it is a dilution of the benefits intended for the Posterity of the Founders of the land trust called The United States of America.
FAIL! (Score:5, Insightful)
she failed to see how an increased labor supply could result in wage depression for engineers and computer workers.
She says:
in no sense could "wage depression through the economic forces of supply and demand" rise to the level of justiciable injury, rather than the "conjecture or hypothetical."
Instead of assuming the judge is an idiot, why not favor the much more likely scenario that the suit failed to show how the plaintiffs would be harmed and to what degree. They are claiming they are would be harmed by having their salaries reduced, when in fact they are "employed" or "underemployed". You can't claim you'll be harmed by having you salary reduce if your salary is already zero. It is not the judges job to "see" how harm could be done. It is the plaintiff's job to demonstrate how harm will be done. If they cannot do that, the judge's hands are tied.
Re:FAIL! (Score:4, Interesting)
the suit failed to show how the plaintiffs would be harmed and to what degree
More like, she rued that "they took our jobs" isn't a complaint on which relief can be granted under the law. The last time this kind of issue arose was when black laborers were competing for jobs with white laborers, and were willing to work for much less, and the upshot was that the unions demanded the minimum wage laws.
-jcr
Parent
Less H-1B's, more and faster citizenship (Score:5, Interesting)
Instead of H-1B indentured servitude, gilded as it may be, we should fast track such people for citizenship. Any country that can make America's marginal tax rates look good or otherwise sufficiently pisses off their people DESERVES to lose their best and brightest. America has traditionally been the common meeting place of the world's best and brightest and I'd hate to see that change.
But the big corporations that give $megabucks to the Democratic and Republican parties, slightly more to whichever is dominant at the time, really like the H-1B system so I don't expect much to change. The fast-track citizenship idea is from National Review.
New Zealand solution (Score:5, Informative)
Open US Borders Now (Score:4, Informative)
I seriously disaqgree with my conservative collegues and liberal union folks who argue against immigration to the United States. I am the descendant of immigrants, as is nearly everyone else in the USA, and our ancestors came when there were no rules to immigration.
I would argue that people who are motivated enough to leave their homelands to come to the USA are motivated enough to work hard and succeed and I have 200 years of outstanding economic growth and opportunity to back me up. Every time this country has opened its borders, we have gotten increased opportunity, increased social dynamism, all pumping the engine of capitalism and driving the USA to ever greater success.
Clamping down on Phds and graduate students from American universities is about the stupidest immigration policy that one could ever devise. If someone has come to this country to study and obtain a university degree, I would think that proves that they are the stuff we want our citizens to be.
The issue of immigration has split the Republican Party right down the middle, but I for one think that Bush and McCain were on the right side of the issue and it is a shame that the odd coalition of labor activists and xenophobes combined to bring what would have been an outstanding immigration bill dead in its tracks. Regardless of who is elected, I hope that saner heads will prevail in both parties, this time around, and America will once again live up to the promise of the statue of liberty, "Give me your poor, tired huddled masses yearning to breath free."... or, in the very least, "give me all of your phds in mechanical, electrical, and computer engineering, in fact, just give me all of them and your undergrads too."
DHS? WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
The Department of Homeland Security makes a rule change to allow additional foreign workers in the engineering and software fields. No doubt they see areas such as telecommunications, security, aviation and DoD work as being low risk. But try to get some Mexicans in here to pick lettuce and we have to build a wall to stop it.
I understand US industries motivation in this area. But aside from the DHS reviewing proposed visa procedures, I can't understand why they should be the ones to sponsor such a regulation. This would seem to fall more within the charter of the Dept. of Commerce. If DHS has no security work to keep it busy, perhaps its time to pull the plug.
Myths and Realities About the USA H1-B Program (Score:4, Informative)
Myth: H1-Bs are the "best and brightest"
Reality: If that were true then the typical H1-B would a Nobel prize winning scientist. The truth is, the typical H1-B is an average student, hired right out of college with only a four year degree. The typical H1-B is no more qualified than the US graduates who are not getting jobs. The H1-Bs are just cheaper. And because of the lottery nature of the H1-B process, employers do not even know who they are getting. So how do employers know that they are getting the best and brightest?
Also, isn't it funny that almost all of the "best and brightest" come from countries where people earn as little as $1 a day? If it's really about the "best and brightest" then why aren't there more European H1-Bs?
---
Myth: H1-Bs are needed because of the critical shortage of US technology workers
Reality: Serious academic studies clearly indicate that skills shortage is a myth.
> These studies done at Duke aren't alone in their assessment that there is in fact no skills shortage. They're backed up by other studies conducted by RAND Corporation, The Urban Institute and Stanford University, among others, all of which settle upon the same conclusion: There is no shortage of educated IT workers.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1081923#PaperDownload [ssrn.com]
This according to a well researched article at baselinemag.com:
http://tinyurl.com/yoy2rw [tinyurl.com]
---
Myth: H1-Bs do compete unfairly, because H1-Bs are paid the prevailing wage
Reality:
> According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) as the measurement of U.S. wages, and the H-1B LCA disclosure data to measure H-1B wages, 90% of H-1B employers' prevailing wage claims for programmers were below the median U.S. wage for that occupation and location, with 62% of them falling in the bottom 25th percentile of U.S. wages, said Miano [founder of the Programmer's Guild].
> Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology (currently on leave) and a research associate at the Economic Policy Institute, pointed to USCIS's most recent report to Congress, which shows that the medium wage in 2005 for new H-1B computing professionals was just $50,000 -- even lower than the entry-level wages that a newly graduated tech worker with a bachelor's degree and no experience would command.
http://tinyurl.com/4bvwyh [tinyurl.com]
According to the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Service's (USCIS) annual report to Congress in 2005, the aggregate data for computing professionals lend support to the argument that the practice of paying H-1Bs below-market wages is quite common.
http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp187.html [sharedprosperity.org]
H1-Bs are hired at four different skill levels, "4" being the highest. But most H1-Bs are hired for the lowest "1" level jobs - regardless of what kind of work the H1-Bs actually do.
---
Myth: In the USA enrollment in technical disciplines is declining. Proof the USA needs to hire more foreign workers
Reality: This myth is designed to confuse cause and effect. Employers are not forced to hire offshore because enrollment is down. Rather, enrollment is down because of aggressive offshoring by employers. But even with enrollments down, there are still more than enough US workers.
> Due to both outsourcing and insourcing, many young people are concluding that technology is a bad place to invest their time," said Mark Thoma, a professor of economics at the University of Oregon in Eugene.
http://tinyurl.com/4bvwyh [tinyurl.com]
---
Myth: Critics of the H1-B program are xenophobic
Reality: This "argument" is nothing but name calling. These allegations are offered without any s
Going to Bangalore (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Going to Bangalore (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
--The FNP
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's because you don't understand differences between labor and commodity. More oil means lower prices; more workers means more jobs and more work done.
The more workers you have, the larger is your economy, and EVERYBODY is better off.
If you don't understand the concept at least compare our economy in 2008 with that in 1492 (pre-immigration).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's because you don't understand differences between labor and commodity. More oil means lower prices; more workers means more jobs and more work done.
Maybe overall and eventually, but it takes time for things to adjust.
The more workers you have, the larger is your economy, and EVERYBODY is better off.
That doesn't work if the new workers are all in one field, you end up with high unemployment and/or low pay for a while until people get displaced to other lines of work ("I just can't find a job as a programmer any more, I think I'll learn how to farm switchgrass instead.").
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I like your point about new workers all in one field. But I believe right now most immigrants are actually in the unskilled labor pool, including the 12 million illegal immigrants and most of the legal immigrants in the "family-sponsored" category.
Re:Eliminate the H1-B (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you hate me too, or only people from India and Bangladesh?
(I'm in the process of getting an H1-B visa, but I'm white and British - so does that make it okay? Or are you opposed to all foreigners? I thought the USA was founded on immigration, you know...)
Parent
Re:Eliminate the H1-B (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought the USA was founded on immigration, you know
It was built by immigrants, but strictly speaking, it was founded on tax revolt. We didn't like sending payment to England just because you were trying to pay for the French and Indian war.
-jcr
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Nation of Immigrants (Score:3, Informative)
I thought the USA was founded on immigration, you know
It was built by immigrants, but strictly speaking, it was founded on tax revolt. We didn't like sending payment to England just because you were trying to pay for the French and Indian war.
-jcr
We really didn't fix immigration as a part of our national identity until after the Civil War. Prior to that time, most Americans traced their ancestry to Britain. Irish, Germans, Poles, etc, didn't start coming here until well after the country was founded, and didn't kick into high gear until after the War between the States, which, consequently, is also about the time anti-immigrant sentiment really took off. And that "nation of immigrants" identity hasn't exactly been static since then. After World War
Kick all immigrants out... (Score:5, Insightful)
This says it all: http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/7628/helppack8hw1oh.jpg [imageshack.us]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I am for a reduction of ALL immigration, not just the H-1B.In my opinion, the the H1-B is just stupid. We should just train and hire our own people. We should also ban sending our jobs overseas just so corporations can give their CEOs 20 million dollar a year bonuses.
Speaking as a computer professional who lives and works outside the USA[0], I strongly agree with you[1] and would encourage all US citizens to lobby their politicians to adopt the above position (to paraphrase Randy Bush).
0. I guess, given you
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hold on... there's just ONE thing that's confusing me about your post...
I am a H1-B dev from Europe.....I am here to take your jobs, women and beer
What European would want to drink American beer?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I absolutely do not feel sorry for someone with an immigrant comes in and "takes your job" for less pay.
An immigrant, a younger worker, any other person willing to do the job for less, the principle is the same: a job is not a right, it's a business transaction in which either party is free to go and find a better deal if they can.
-jcr
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"to the detriment of the customer."
Maybe -- but do you know something? *I* am the supplier, and NOT the customer. As to the customer -- they get the benefit of dealing with professionals.
I would love to organize.
flow of capital up and out you mean? (Score:3, Insightful)
'Cause the shrinking middle class is tired of seeing our funds be sucked up by other Americans because they had the money and connections to rip us off.
Food and gas goes up, who gets richer?