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Comments: 1123 +- Your Rights Online: DHS Allowed To Take Laptops Indefinitely on Friday August 01 2008, @07:08AM
Posted
by
kdawson
on Friday August 01 2008, @07:08AM
from the reasonable-expectation dept.
from the reasonable-expectation dept.
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privacy
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usa
andy1307 writes with a Washington Post story giving details of Department of Homeland Security policies for border searches of laptops and other electronic devices (as well as papers). (We have been discussing border searches for a while now.) DHS says such procedures have long been in place but were "disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter," according to the article. Here is a link to the policy (PDF, 5 pages). "Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed. Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption, or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, US Customs and Border Protection and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement... DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies — which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens — are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism... The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash..."'"
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Degradation of rights for nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
The worst part (Score:5, Insightful)
What is even worse is that if you try to use encryption to maintain a level of privacy and security, that will just mean they'll keep it longer while they try to crack it.
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Re:The worst part (Score:5, Insightful)
Strong encryption with internet storage is the only way to go now I'm afraid.
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Re:The worst part (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:The worst part (Score:5, Insightful)
The privacy violations are ridiculous, but at least we know about them and can take steps to avoid them - businesses providing 'clean' laptops and accessing data remotely over an encrypted connection, for instance. I don't for a second condone them looking through our data, but the fact is it's happening and that means we have to do our best to negate the effects.
The fact that they can basically steal your laptop, phone and any other nice electronics you happen to carry, on the other hand, could potentially be rather costly. I'm not even sure how likely an insurance company is to pay out for a claim of "it was confiscated and held indefinitely by the US government".
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Re:The worst part (Score:5, Informative)
They won't pay at all. All theft/loss policies have clauses regarding seizure by the government.
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Re:The worst part (Score:5, Funny)
"Hithisisagoodpasswordforprotectingmyfilezyoubetterkn0wthepassword"
To protect a single text file which reads:
"Waste of time"
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Re:The worst part (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Degradation of rights for nothing (Score:5, Informative)
Which is why you NEVER take that stuff past the government sanctioned thugs and criminals we have at the airports.
Ship your laptop via UPS or Fedex to your destination, it's a lot cheaper to spend $125.00US to ship it next day air international than to replace it all when you get there because some DHS scumbag takes a shining to your laptop or wants to punish you because you dared question them.
Honest citizens need to act like international spies.
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Re:Degradation of rights for nothing (Score:5, Funny)
It depends, are they planning on making big trouble for moose and squirrel?
Then you ship it inside a dead beaver to a Canadian taxidermist undercover spy in Minnesota. From there he places it inside a stuffed bear that is shipped to the hotel you will be staying, late at night you recover the laptop from the stuffed bear when nobody is looking.
If you need the number of the taxidermist, let me know... 15 inch and smaller laptops please, he cant find beavers large enough to ship 17 inch laptops anymore.
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Re:Degradation of rights for nothing (Score:5, Funny)
he cant find beavers large enough to ship 17 inch laptops anymore
Yeah I hate when I can't find a beaver large enough to contain something that's 17 inches in size ;)
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It's about putting power in... their hands (Score:5, Insightful)
Worst part is despite the searches and seizures, they accomplish very little. You inconvenience and step all over the rights of average, law-abiding citizens to give the impression of safety.
It's not for nothing. They are not stupid, there's a very good reason for this: power. Information is power, and if they know about your data (it doesn't matter if it's something legal or not), they have power over you.
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Re:Degradation of rights for nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
My story can be seen as a pitiful example. But I heard rumors from former colleagues at a company I used to work for that they have changed their security measures on corporate laptops when traveling to the US.
It includes taking the laptop down to the IT department and having them make an image of the HDD, then it is replaced by a new one, the image is downloaded when on US soil. Probably through VPN or similar.
The question that raises is the same that was raised in Sweden over the FRA-legislation: The possiblity of industrial espionage. So when both private and corporate trips might be canceled or postponed, doesn't that hurt the US economy?
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I don't know why you people are bitching (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Degradation of rights for nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
Somehow this doesn't make me feel any safer, quite the opposite actually.
I don't know who I fear the most, Al-Queda, or the US government, It's pretty much a toss-up at the moment, and I'm not so sure that the needle won't end on the latter.
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Re:Degradation of rights for nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know who I fear the most, Al-Queda, or the US government
That's easy. Al-Queda can't take away your freedom. All they can take away is your life. The US Government can do both.....
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Re:Degradation of rights for nothing (Score:5, Interesting)
If you travel to and from the US, you are far, far more likely to be harmed in some way by the US Government.
I am far more afraid of the US Government than any other entity. And I just walked through the Moslem quarter of the Old City as an Orthodox Jew the other week.
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Their law versus ours (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because their little law says they can do it doesn't mean it doesn't run afoul of the Contitutional protections. Were this to be challenged, it would be killed pretty quickly: one cannot instigate such as this in the name of "terrorism" and not expect at least one challenge on "unreasonable search and seizure." You cannot fight global terrorism by turning the USA into a police-state. All that accomplishes is angering the populace....and you remember the last time Americans became angry with their government?...
Re:Their law versus ours (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Their law versus ours (Score:5, Insightful)
and you remember the last time Americans became angry with their government?...
They were beaten with clubs, battons and shot with riot rounds?
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yes, except (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that this kind of rule may be unconstitutional means exactly nothing unless you can convince the judicial branch to rule it so, the executive branch to respect that ruling, and the legislative branch to bitchslap the executive if/when it refuses to behave.
There's at least two items in the list that I won't be holding my breath for.
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Sorry for the Godwin Violation (Score:5, Interesting)
But...
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have to at least consider that it is a bird of the family anatidae (apologies to Douglas Adams)
This is outrageous! and a 4th amendment violation.
Hitler may have lost WWII, but the forces of fascism and totalitarianism are still fighting the war and are winning.
Re:Sorry for the Godwin Violation (Score:5, Insightful)
The constitution doesn't apply until you get past the customs officer. And even then only to US citizens.
Do you have a citation for the Constitution not applying to non-Americans on American soil or are you just talking out of your ass?
Parent
Ah, Penny Arcade predicted this. (Score:5, Funny)
I thought it was funny the first time I read it, it's scary that it may be more true now. )=
DHS IT (Score:5, Funny)
I can only think of two words (Score:5, Insightful)
Normally I would put together a verbose, and perhaps even eloquent, response to such information. But I can only think of two words.
Bull shit.
We are losing, people. We are losing our rights and there will be more to come. That our own personal property can be seized "to fight terrorism" on the terms presented is absolute, unadulterated, pure and uncut bull shit.
Re:I can only think of two words (Score:5, Insightful)
FASCIST PIGFUCKERS.
Run while you can. If you think Obama's gonna make it all better, you're nuts. The whole imperial mess is rolling into a death spiral. Run while you can.
RS
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Re:I can only think of two words (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words: Vote with your feet. While Europe and Canada certainly aren't free form this kind of bullshit, the USA proudly take the lead (and a pretty big one at that). If the conditions inside the USA are becoming unbearable, emigrate to a more friendly country. If enough of you do it you might form a noticable minority in your new country and get enough media attention to discourage local politicians from playing the control state card as well.
If you consider leaving, now is a good time. Yes, the rest of the world is expensive because the Dollar is on its way to becoming toy money. That makes your leave an especially strong statement: "I'll start with much less money in my new country but I don't care as long as I get out of here."
Just about the only thing that'd make most of the people consider something being amiss would be an emigration wave of people who are vocal about why they leave and who'd gladly choose a lower standard of living (if only temporary) over being subject to DHS and the like.
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Absolutely reasonable... (Score:5, Interesting)
DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism...
My god. I can understand that they think those policies are necessary, but nobody can believe that is reasonable.
"We can take everything you own and keep it as long as we want. Only if we feel like it. We think this is a reasonable exchange, you get to enter the country, we get to steal your stuff"
Kleptocracy, anyone ? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Yeah, you'll get your stuff back in, uh, fourty years. Sorry, rules are rules. And only if it doesn't get lost or misplaced until then."
And when are they going to start confiscating pacemakers and hearing aids ? Last I've heard, these things can also store information in digital form.
Toilet paper... (Score:5, Interesting)
Its nice that government agencies regard the Constitution as toilet paper.
What they fail to realize is that all their power originates with that document, and in a way, it's like a contract between the government and the people. Since the government has decided to violate the terms (breach of contract), then maybe we should stop recognizing their authority, since they have chosen to invalidate that document that is the sole source of that authority?
I'd rather have freedom than "security" (Score:5, Insightful)
Distressing quote from the article (Score:5, Interesting)
Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern said the efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy." In a statement submitted to Feingold for a June hearing on the issue, he noted that the executive branch has long had "plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border without probable cause or a warrant" to prevent drugs and other contraband from entering the country.
Perhaps it's just a poor characterization of his statements, but it appears that Mr. Ahern just doesn't get it. Regardless of what authority the executive branch has had, he needs a pretty damn strong argument as to why these efforts don't infringe on "Americans'" privacy. I can't think of any reasonable argument that they do not. Whether it's a *justified* infringement is a somewhat subtler question, but these powers are certainly subject to abuse. Further, even the obscenely few restrictions on preserving the data after the investigation is completed are little consolation in the face of the many stories of data mishandling by government entities. Mr. Ahern desperately needs to get a clue.
Further, even as an American I take exception to the idea that it's only relevant for our government to protect "Americans'" privacy, as is implied by this quote. Again, it might be due to incomplete quoting, but I somehow doubt that. As a scientist who frequently works with international collaborators, it's really true that communities outside the U.S. are deciding to keep their business out of this country due to the ridiculous policies for entering. It's often just not worth the effort. Way to go, Executive Branch!!
Analog form? (Score:5, Informative)
That includes BRAINS!
Any device capable of storing information... (Score:5, Funny)
The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form
My brain is a device that can record patterns in an analog form. If they want it, they'll have to get it over my dead body ;-)
Industrial Espionage... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Industrial Espionage... (Score:5, Insightful)
Too bad.
Wouldn't that constitute industrial espionage to decrypt said information?
It's only illegal if you're not the government.
What if a DHS employee has a relative who competes in that field?
Good for him !
I can only imagine the potential messes there.
You misspelled "opportunities".
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Re:Industrial Espionage... (Score:5, Insightful)
When the government puts people in a position where there is no way to avoid breaking the law, we have a serious problem.
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Think of the children! (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, the magic words!
I reckon you could even implement gun control in the US, if you reported that peados were using guns!
A little more context... (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just trying to provide a little context. If you're going to complain about it, at least acknowledge a little bit of history here.
Obtain laptops cheap! (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like a good way for DHS officials to get laptops, iPods, etc real cheap.
Step 1: Find someone with a laptop, iPod, etc that you'd like to have.
Step 2: Take it in the name of National Security.
Step 3: Item "gets lost" and you have a new gadget.
This is especially useful during the holidays. DHS officials can shop on the job. "Hey Frank, didn't you say your kid wanted one of those new iPods? Well look at this guy walking up now."
I wonder what, if any, protections are in place to keep this from being abused. (Any more than giving someone the power to confiscate any item of yours for little to no reason and keep it indefinitely is an abuse of power from the start.)
Organized Protests (Score:5, Funny)
What we really need is a new Linux distro that's just Rickrolls, goatse and 2 Girls One Cup. "Wait, officer! Don't forget these DVDs here."
DId the former USSR do this? China? Vietnam? (Score:5, Insightful)
Vietnam didn't. I travelled there several times with my laptop and never had any issues.
Can somebody give me a good reason why I should not continue my personal boycott against travel to the US?
I would have to leave all my gadgetry behind at home. Absolutely appalling. It is not the fact that a seizure can happen, but that nonchalantly the authorities have the power to keep your stuff for as long as they please. Nice way to nick an iPod.
I used to go to old U.S. of A. once a year, spending a reasonable amount of money each time (hotel, plain tickets, etc.) and a few times I took stop overs in the US in my way home when visiting my family, for which uncle Sam surely derived some money as well.
I know nobody cares, but more and more people are *actively* avoiding the US when travelling.
I went to Canada instead earlier this year, and the difference could have not been starker: I was granted a visa on arrival (I am Mexican, no bloody way that would ever happen in the US, even if I was coming from Europe, as I normally do), the people are friendly and although are losing soldiers to the Taliban more than what would be reasonable to expect, they are not idiotically paranoid.
USians: when are you going to recover the essence of the goodness that your country promised when it was founded?
Re:Books? Any written materials? (Score:5, Interesting)
How the hell does this not violate the "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." part of the 4th amendment, where is the SCOTUS case that ruled that US citizens upon returning to the US borders do not enjoy the protections of the constitution?
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Re:Books? Any written materials? (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to be *in* the US for your rights to be in effect. Once you're at border security, you're not in the US anymore, so your rights don't apply. At least that's the argument, however dubious.
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Re:Books? Any written materials? (Score:5, Informative)
You have to be *in* the US for your rights to be in effect.
No, remarkably, the 4th amendment says that the government cannot seize your papers. Is this the government? Check. Are these your papers? Check.
Let me know when you find the part of the amendment that says "except outside of the US".
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Re:Books? Any written materials? (Score:5, Informative)
unreasonable searches and seizures
Searches at the border are legally reasonable. This has been held for a very very long time.
Since everybody loves Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception [wikipedia.org]
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Re:Books? Any written materials? (Score:5, Funny)
"That's a nice tattoo you got there, sir, but what does it say ? We better send it over to the NSA for decryption. Now step over here, this will hurt only a little ..."
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Re:Terrorism, Thy Name Is... (Score:5, Funny)
What happened to needing "probable cause" as a justification for a search?
Dick Cheney stabbed it to death with a letter opener and then as it was trying to draw it's last breath he took a razor to it's throat slicing it deep, then pulled it's tongue through the cut as a message to the other rights and justifications.
Last I heard, Dick was standing in the national archives with a jug of white out screaming, " SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!"
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Re:Anonymous Coward. (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's face it, three and a half airplanes were enough to kick the USA from "#1 Superpower and Most Important Country in the World" to "uncomfortably well-armed paranoid hegemony in decline". The terrorists have won and it's unsettling to see how much indirect damage they've done so far.
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