H-1B Foes Challenge Bush Administration In Court

theodp writes "Computerworld reports that the Bush administration's recent decision to extend the amount of time foreign nationals can work in the U.S. on student visas is being challenged in a federal lawsuit by H-1B visa opponents. The suit, filed in US District Court by the Immigration Reform Law Institute and joined by The Programmers Guild and other groups, charges that the administration — acting through the Department of Homeland Security — exceeded its legal authority with a no-notice-no-comments 'emergency' rule change that extended the Optional Practical Training work period from one year to 29 months. Critics say this is little more than an effort to skirt around the H-1B cap limit. Because extended stays are limited to those whose degrees are in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) fields, educators are speculating that the rule change will drive international students away from non-STEM majors."

Re:Land of immigrants

[Dionysus]

Norway.

BTW, I did love living in the Bay Area. Love the energy of the area. Norway doesn't have a tech area like the Bay Area. Oslo is more finance than tech (but most tech jobs seem to be in the Oslo area).

The reason for the extension of the OPT is that Congress wouldn't increase the H1b quota. The problem then is that the quota is filled the first day it is available (April 1st), which is before anyone studying in the US has graduated. And you can't apply for an H1b (or your job can't if you can get one) before you have graduated.

Re:ABOLISH THE H1B PROGRAM

[Dionysus]

Most visas go to giant corporations like MicroSoft.

I was under the impression most visa went to outsourcing companies like InfoSys.

Re:H1b scam.

[Anonymous Coward]

By "need", did you mean: "afford"? The lottery system makes sure that the biggest companies aren't favored in a way that would only allow them to profit further on the backs of labor that is un-duly committed to staying with them.

Re:ABOLISH THE H1B PROGRAM

[Dionysus]

According to Wikipedia [wikipedia.org], the top 2 H1B companies are Indian outsourcing companies, InfoSys and WiPro. Of the top 10, 7 are Indian.
(Microsoft, IBM and Sun are the Americans)

Re:We already spend more than enough on education

[Billly Gates]

The issue is illegal immigrants crowding the city schools. A single bad student or one with limited english can drop the whole class average by a large margin.

In california where I work for a school district I am seeing this problem. Thanks to No child left behind we are seeing funding cuts as well and 1 out of 4 students are illegal or there parents are illegal in my district and no its not inner city either.

In rural areas they do not suffer from this problem so a single student who scores only 15% at grade level can not bring down the whole average.

But your assessment is correct. School administrators receive free BMW's and Mercedes and they just cut 300 teachers from their payroll at the same time. Also one administrator has ties to board of directors at Gateway computers so we keep upgrading on computers we dont need and she gets a payback from it too.

Re:Don't worry, it's just jobs Americans don't wan

[thermian]

Are foreign students suddenly less a "threat"? What changed?

It may have something to do with hundreds of millions per annum being lost because all those now 'suspect' chinese students that used to go to university in the states have started to go to Europe instead.

Its been great for England, my gosh yes, the extra revenue was seriously needed, but not so great for the US. Last I heard some US Universities were having serious problems trying to make up for the loss of that money.

Oddly enough European society has completely failed to collapse, and we haven't found ourselves dealing with hordes of evil Chinese people plotting to take over our countries.

Personally it helped me learn how to make some really good Chinese meals.

Re:Weak

[Trailer Trash]

My kids go to a private school for about $4000/year each. Right now, the public schools in this area are spending $8500/kid/year, and claiming that they need more money to bring the schools up to par (our schools are among the worst in the state). I probably don't have to tell you that the private school kids test far above the public schools, even though the school also accepts a number of "at risk" kids each year through a scholarship program.

If money were the answer, our public school system here would be turning out einsteins.

Re:Weak

[xaxa]

We brought accountability to the UK school system a while back. Children were tested (nationally) more often (age 7, 11 and 14, as well as the exams at 16). Schools were rated based on the children's results, and "bad" schools told to improve Or Else.

It hasn't worked (well, the government's agency sets the exams, and makes them slightly easier every year, so they say it's worked. But university professors get angry because they now have to teach science undergraduates maths that used to be taught in school).

Teachers were (of course) worried that the children wouldn't pass the exams, so they concentrated their efforts on teaching how to pass the maths exam, rather than teaching maths. Only maths, English and science are examined (at 7, 11 and 14) so less time was spent on all other subjects to make time for exam preparation.
This results in children enjoying school less -- partly because of the reduced curriculum, but mostly because of the increased pressure.

The ranking of schools isn't useful anyway -- schools in poor areas do worse, schools in rich areas do better, it's extremely difficult to do anything about that. The government's solution is to close two nearby bad schools, build a new "superschool", and then say "there were N bad schools, now there are only N/2!"

Wales decided they didn't like all the testing, so they got rid of the tests (the 7, 11 and I think the 14). The Welsh government person in charge of education says it's brilliant, which didn't go down well with her equivalent in London. Especially as they're both in the Labour party -- the London (i.e. setting policy for England) minister strongly supports the testing.

Overall, keeping politics out of education seems the best idea. Some independent schools are starting to offer the IB instead of A-levels.

Re:We already spend more than enough on education

[debatem1]

I went to a private school. Trust me, private schools are not the solution.

Re:DHS = Get Out of Jail Free card

[Zarf]

DHS controls ICE see: http://www.ice.gov/about/faq.htm [ice.gov] my ICD and API docs come with a nice big seal from DHS. So yes, the number of issued visas is under the DHS purview. The particulars of how a visa is granted, why, and to whom are not under direct control of DHS... merely the number, adjudication, and tracking.

Prior to 2003 these authorities were held by the DoJ but they shifted to DHS.

Who is inside the country is a data point that DHS is decidedly interested in. This is a reality I work with every single day as I develop software that tracks the whereabouts of visa holders.

Re:Weak

[xaxa]

I don't think seven-year-old children have figured that out yet. (For a start, they don't get a grade at the end of the year [except the test grade], they get a written report from the teacher which is sent to their parents. I wouldn't have wanted a bad report when I was seven, nowadays it seems there are more parents that don't care if their children aren't putting any effort into their school.)

Re:Weak

[Anonymous Coward]

I grew up in India. There were nine exams in total every year - six mid terms, and three term exams - quarterly, half-yearly and annual. If you fail the annual exam, you have to repeat that year. You do not advance to the next grade. They failed students as early as in third grade (age 7). Granted, I went to a private school. But many government schools did the same too. All schools have exams and make students repeat the year from grade 6 onwards if they fail the annual exam. I finished high school about 12 years ago, but the system still remains the same. The negative aspects of this system was that this encouraged rote memorization and discouraged sports and other extracurricular activities.

Re:H1b scam.

[skofz]

You're confusing the green card diversity lottery with the H-1B lottery.

There are 65,000 H-1B's available for the year (20,000 of them reserved for "advanced degree" holders), and there were over 163,000 applications within the first five days of the filing period. This year, all H-1Bs, even the 20,000 in the advanced degree block, are being assigned by lottery.

There is no other way to get one.

Re:Weak

[thomasw_lrd]

I tend to agree with your points. I have two daughters in elementary, different schools same district. And my older one hasn't learned anything in the last month because of the standardized testing that was going on at the end of the school. I think they are pointless.

Re:lies and more lies

[nguy]

When you have an H-1B you can't "simply" change jobs. You have to find another company that is willing to sponsor you.

That "sponsorship" consists of filing a form. There's no obligation or financial risk to the company. BFD. Stop scaring people with such misleading language.

Besides, if you decide to leave your current job, you have one month to find another employer that sponsors you or you have to leave the country.

You don't leave your current job until you've found another one, otherwise, you're unemployed, and that's bad news even for US citizens with mortgages or children.

Once you're unemployed, you're obviously not a corporate slave anymore. If you're unemployed for too long, you have to leave the country (seems reasonable to me). In real life, the period ends up being much longer than one month.

Re:About time

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact:
H1-B workers in this country get paid the same as US-citizens. Companies pay by merit, not country of origin.

Bwahahahahahahah!

Oh man.. good one. You must work at one of those weird companies, that is probably imaginary, where the employer doesn't seek to get the cheapest employee with a reasonable skill set.

Working at ImaginarySoft must be nice. How are the company hovercars? Good gas mileage?

H1B visas legally require that you pay a prevailing wage, and of course there is no enforcement of this whatsoever, and I speak from experience. I know several H1Bs that make nowhere close to the prevailing wage for a S/W engineer. ICE might check if the immigrant in question raises a stink or tries to apply for a green card when their H1B is reviewed. Otherwise they don't give a shit. Companies know they aren't going to be caught, and individual managers know who is going to be kicked out of the country (in theory anyways) if they are fired.

Re:Americans are good enough.. just not CHEAP enou

[Rutulian]

They can't get americans to buy their crappy pay, benefits, and job security, so they want to farm out slave labor they can have deported at their whim.

Oh cry me a river!

From the US Dept. of Labor [bls.gov]:
In May 2006, median annual earnings of wage-and-salary computer applications software engineers were $79,780.

In May 2006, median annual earnings of wage-and-salary computer systems software engineers were $85,370.

How can you possibly suggest that a salary like that qualifies as "slave labor?" That's well above the median income of $46,326 in the U.S. per the U.S. Census. Are you aware that there are real cases of slave labor in the U.S? Such as those where a person has to work 2-3 jobs, gets no benefits, vacation, or job security, and still makes less than the poverty line?

The whiney upper-middle classers need to wake up and stop crying about their employers. As long as corporate abuse doesn't happen to them, they are ok with it. Well, guess what? India, China, and Japan are training top notch computer scientists and they are willing to work for less than Americans. That's called competition, and since that is what our capitalist economy thrives on (or so the Republicans/Libertarians keep saying), deal with it.

Re:lies and more lies

[rachit]

That's a big stinking lie because H-1b visas have been portable for several years now; H-1b employees can simply change jobs.

Not very simple, *especially* if you are in the middle of the process of getting a green card, then you are really tied to the employer until you are at your final stages. In general, most people don't want to mess with their employment, because god knows what mess ups can happen with the INS.

Re:ABOLISH THE H1B PROGRAM

[bsdewhurst]

I can out this into a bit of prospective for you, the average wage in New Zealand is currently about $47,000 so you would be earning above the average wage and remember that $55,000 is the minimum that they can pay you on the visa. Secondly the visa is slightly different in that it is not meant as a "temporary" visa like the H-1B, the correct name for this is the "Work to Residence" visa, so after two years in New Zealand, if you still have a job and you haven't broken any laws you can apply to stay in the country permanently.

Re:Land of immigrants

[molarmass192]

It's unnatural, unfair and counterproductive to criminalize people for just coming to your country.

You think it's only the US that has barriers to immigration? Try immigrating to ANY of the EU countries. Compares to that, immigrating to the US is about as easy as immigration gets.