RIM In Trouble For Not Violating Privacy

sufijazz writes "The US government is not alone in wanting to snoop on everything citizens do over email/phone. The Indian government wants that right too. RIM is stating they have no means to decrypt, no master key, and no back door to allow the government to access email." The article notes that 114,000 BlackBerries are in use on the Indian subcontinent. The government is concerned about attacks by militants and sees the BlackBerry as a security risk.

can't work even if they wanted it to

[gmack]

And there's the downside of governments trying to fight modern technology.

I bet if Blackberry did as they asked then people would start loading custom firmware on their phones to work around it.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[Ren Hoak]

The BlackBerry has really lost its monopoly on the messaging device. If they were forced to comply with this, I would expect them to lose market share while people flocked to any of the myriad other devices that provide convenient messaging services.

End to End Encryption - independent of location

[Gat0r30y]

So.... the Indian government wants RIM to figure out a way to decrypt every email - from all those CrackBerries, without any keys (RIM doesn't have the keys) and store them all on a local server - and somehow RIM is also supposed to magically know that the hardware is in India (they operate independent of location). India, I have bad news. It isn't going to happen. On the upside, this may set a precedent for other companies to reject a governments calls for access to emails without warrants (US companies, take note, you could learn from your neighbor to the north).

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[Anonymous Coward]

And there's the downside of governments trying to fight modern technology.

I reject your implicit assertion that there is an upside.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[unlametheweak]

It doesn't matter; allowing governments to spy on people does not stop terrorism, social injustice, crime, political unrest, famine or war. It's an irrational reaction to a problem. Deal with the cause not the effect. But I don't really think politicians are that stupid; I think they know this, but want the excuse to be in the best example of Orwellian arguments to tyranny, however subtly and slowly it creeps upon us.

Summary is indicative of the problem

[hassanchop]

The Indian government wants that right too

This shit infuriates me.

GOVERNMENTS DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS OF ANY KIND.

Governments have powers. This IS NOT a simple semantic argument.

Just to be a little bit paranoid

[tkrotchko]

If you had the means to break into emails and give the key to the government....

Think of this... If you are a government, wouldn't you like RIM to announce that their encryption is unbreakable, and then you announce how unhappy you are with them? I mean, wouldn't RIM be shooting itself in the foot to announce "Oh yes, there's a master key, and if we'll give it up under certain circumstances that we won't discuss"?

And what a great advertisement to have the government say "Even we can't snoop on your email". If you spent a billion dollars on advertising, you couldn't get that kind of great publicity.

It all seems to.... "convenient".

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[Anonymous Coward]

The BlackBerry has really lost its monopoly on the messaging device.

Blackberry never had a monopoly on the messaging device.

What Blackberry does have is the best mobile messaging platform, by far. Great management tools, great encryption, great integration with existing IT infrastructure.

Re:This could set a precedent

[blindd0t]

Will they be faced with the dilemma of changing their architecture versus being banned?

I sure hope not! A back door for government is a back door for anyone and everyone. It'd be like having trusted keys for software licensing enforcement, which we all know gets leaked in a heart-beat anyway. :-(

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[smclean]

Or just use encryption. To me, that's what is so baffling about the government privacy crackdowns. If anyone who was even remotely well informed wanted to communicate in private, they'd use strong encryption. I guess once someone uses encryption, they get an Indian military intelligence unit parked outside their door.

Wait a second...

[AutopsyReport]

The US government is not alone in wanting to snoop on everything citizens do over email/phone.

Hold on a second there.

I believe the reason the US government uses the BlackBerry is because the service cannot be decrypted. If it could be, then they wouldn't be able to rely on it due to security and privacy considerations, etc.

As much as that statement is kindle for a fire I'm quite certain that at least in the context of using BlackBerry's, the US government has no interest on being able to decrypt communications. I think it's safe to assume the government is content with the fact that there is no backdoor to RIM's services.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post so full of it. Let's see:

1. "lost monopoly" - was it ever a monopoly?
2. "people flocked" - you mean, everybody will just give up using BB just because a govt is trying to snoop on them? Have you stopped using your phones here in US - govt is spying on your calls for years now.
3. "myriad other devices for convenient messaging services" - which on? BB is best there is out there when it comes to messaging. iPhone does not even come anywhere near, and its a moot point anyways - its not available in India.

Re:Security Risk?

[spikexyz]

The pen has always been a risk. The american (canadian) dream is financial and not ethical or intellectual. People writing dangerous ideas have always been a threat and doing so has been tolerated as far as it doesn't pose and significant threat to making money. The difference now is that the government can now eavesdrop on the pen and they want to do so to better ensure that there aren't too many dangerous ideas.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[metlin]

Well, to play the devil's advocate, terrorism in India is a much more realistic threat than terrorism in the US is (a democracy surrounded by Pakistan, an Islamic dictatorship and China, an aggressive communist state).

Not that that gives the government the right to do what they are trying to do, but just that do not attribute to malice what can be attributed to idiocy, or desperation.

Just last week, there were several bomb blasts [atimes.com] that killed over 80 people and injured hundreds more.

I don't necessarily think they are trying to fight modern technology, as much as try to prevent the bad guys from using it to their benefit. I do not necessarily agree with the way they are going about it, but I can certainly see where they are coming from.

Unlike the US where the state seems to use one incident as the bugaboo for massive invasion of privacy, countries like India and Israel face terrorism on a daily basis, and for them, this is a real, hard problem that needs to be addressed.

This is also a debate that has been going on for a long time, and it is too early to make a call.

Problem.

[jellomizer]

If you make it so you can monitor the militants with that device... They won't use that device they will just use an other method. There is the concept that encryption technology is so advanced only the best and brightest can take advantage of it. It is easier to use something else the someome made however. It is not that difficult to make your own, espectially if you have a cause.

Re:I have a better solution

[E IS mC(Square)]

Other than killing other country's prime ministers (or pm candidates).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajiv_Gandhi_assassination [wikipedia.org]

The gov't listens to everything

[Anonymous Coward]

Every system has a backdoor. These products would not be allowed onto the American and/or Indian markets without the gov't approval. After all, corporations and gov't are merely quid-pro-quo whorehouses sold to the highest bidder. When the gov't needs illegal wire-taps, Verizon and Sprint allow them secret rooms to listen in on calls. When Haliburton (and KBR) need more revenue, the gov't hands out no-bid contracts. When the gov't dislikes literature, Amazon and Wikipedia ban America Deceived (book) [iuniverse.com]. We The People had our gov't sold out from beneath us.
     

Re:Just to be a little bit paranoid

[Anonymous Coward]

Think of this... If you are a government, wouldn't you like RIM to announce that their encryption is unbreakable, and then you announce how unhappy you are with them? I mean, wouldn't RIM be shooting itself in the foot to announce "Oh yes, there's a master key, and if we'll give it up under certain circumstances that we won't discuss"?

You know, the sheer level of completely casual paranoia exhibited here on Slashdot is staggering at times.

I sometimes think that if someone stated something innocuous, like, "The sky is blue", you'd get one camp fiercely saying the sky is blue, another saying it isn't, and yet a third group saying that talking about the blueness of the sky is just subterfuge to keep us from thinking about the wetness of water.

That would likely lead to side discussions over the merit of the positions of if the sky was designed blue, is blue from reflecting the oceans, or if it's a quirk of scattering of wavelengths by our atmosphere.

Then you would have to repeat the cycle for if we have an atmosphere (and what state it's in), the shape of the Earth, and if we are, in fact, actually only just running in a simulation and anything we think we know about the atmosphere is all carefully designed to make us believe we're sentient beings observing the universe as we know it. This, all being course some elaborate plot by the white mice to get the answers they need.

It all seems to.... "convenient".

When you're convinced everyone is conspiring to hide the truth from you, any rational explanation is too "convenient" in that it doesn't mesh with the crap you're trying to convince yourself of.

At some point, thinking everything is just a little too convenient just basically means you're bat-shit crazy and out of touch with reality.

Seriously, loosen the tin foil hats, have a couple of beers, get laid, and chill. The world isn't conspiring to deceive you at every turn.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[Torvaun]

Don't forget that Bangladesh had a military coup a little over a year ago, and 2 ex-prime ministers, among others, are now in jail on corruption charges. For India, this is the equivalent of being a drug dealer, and seeing your pot-growing neighbor get raided by a SWAT team. Damn right the government there is going to be worried about militia groups.

Re:This could set a precedent

[unlametheweak]

Good thing RIM is a Canadian company.. eh?

Why? Google and Yahoo are American companies that are based in the "land of the free" and yet they comply with the Chinese government with all their unethical anti-privacy and surveillance measures. Nice companies who "do no Evil" will never win in the end. Just like corporations are legal personifications of a person; a nice company will never get the girl, the BMW or the promotion. Just ask Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.

Re:Wait a second...

[bsDaemon]

I would second this. Every time I have to go to the Hill, every one there is on their blackberries. My friends that are Congressional staffers all get them from work for official communications. It's friggin' blackberries all over the place, and you never see anything else.

Personally, I stick with my motorola krazer and my palm tx - but if I were to get a smartphone I'd buy a Palm Treo. Never occurred to me why they love blackberry so friggin' much until this story.

Re:This could set a precedent

[Anonymous Coward]

The German built JAP proxy technology was forced to put in a backdoor for the German police; all completely unannounced until a programmer looked at the (open) source code.

...

C:\Documents and Settings\The MAZZTer>cd /d E:\Programs\Internet\JAP

E:\Programs\Internet\JAP>uninstall.exe

E:\Programs\Internet\JAP>cd ..

E:\Programs\Internet>rmdir JAP

Ahem. I never really used it anyway. Just experimenting with different proxies. Besides, Tor is better. >_>

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[sm62704]

do not attribute to malice what can be attributed to idiocy, or desperation

I believe Hanlon's razor [wikipedia.org] is dull and rusty and Hanlon was probably using his razor to shave his own malice. Not that I ever heard off Hanlon before looking the quote up.

I subscribe to the credo "Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice". Call it mcgrew's razor if you wish, it cuts the opposite way as Hanlon's. Malice itself is usually stupid, and anger is almost always counterproductive in our world.

But it matters little whether the person you are making excuses for is stupid or evil, the result is the same, and the cure is often the same as well. Why do you think they say "wow, that smarts" when they are in pain?

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[Tikkun]

You can't fight murder by banning knives, you can't fight hate by burning books and you can't fight conspiracy by banning privacy. Giving up your rights does not make you in any way safer.

Deal with the problem, not with the tools.

IHBT

[sm62704]

Tough room. I'd have modded you down too.

IF they're worried about Muslim terrorists, make everyone getting onboard the train have to eat a BLT.

That works for Jewish terrorists, too. Also for my terrorist daughter who is allergic to bacon. Yeah, she's downright MEAN!

And if they're worried about Christian terrorists, tell them they have to suck off a gay dude

EWWW! Being a Christian wouldn't keep me from sucking off a dude, but being heterosexual would. My bible doesn't say "thou shalt not suck cocks". There are 12 commandments for the Christian: Moses' ten and Jesus' two, although all ten are contained in the two.

Anyone who has read the first four books of the New Testament knows that Pat Robertson is s wolf in sheeps' clothing and has converted more Christians to athiesm than all the athiests at slashdot combined. Eat your heart out, you ineffectual piker!

I'm just sick of people telling me they believe all sorts of crazy shit based on "faith"

Then stop baiting them, troll.

My faith is based on personal experience. If you don't believe in penguins I can't blame you; they are rather improbable creatures. A bird that can't fly, but instead swims underwater and eats fish? And lives at the South Pole? Yeah they have pictures but there's photoshop. And yeah, there are all sorts of documents but those were meant to be works of fiction. People claiming to have actually seen penguins are either schitzophrenic, on drugs, or liars.

But I have experienced penguins, there's one at my local zoo. I'm sure you have some exotic explanation for why I imagine I saw a penguin at the zoo.

...and yet they think they can tell us what sort of science is permissible to be taught in public schools.

Not me. Evolution does NOT go against anything the Bible says. Even teh Catholic Pope will agree that evolution is real (IANAC).

A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels

Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.

When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee

Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.

Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many. I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths. When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble. Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life. Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.

Much wisdom is contained in the book you so despise. However, I can understand your fear of it.

No they don't

[hassanchop]

Governments have a right of sovereignty, which is a right between governments.

No, they do not. The have the powers and responsibilities of sovereignty, given to them by the people that instituted said government.

Calling it a "right" is a misuse of the term, and the rest of your post is just as factually inaccurate.

If you're being serious

[hassanchop]

Ivory tower libertines like you infuriate me.

That's me, shamelessly banging everything that moves and constantly drunk off my ass in my "ivory tower".

Do you know how many terrorist strikes happen in India every year?

Name a number that you think would cause me to reconsider renouncing my rights for safety. Start with a BIG number, you'll waste a ton of time otherwise.

They laid siege to the parliament, blasted commuter trains, temples...

And? That was sufficient to make you renounce your rights as a human being? Sorry, you'll have to do better than that.

They have to maintain law and order in a society where more than half the population is functionally illiterate.

So, why is your solution to this is anything other than teach them to read?

And finally Indian constitution is not the same as US constitution.

Hey man, nothing's perfect.

Lastly, if you were being sarcastic (please please please say you were being sarcastic) then you got me.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[l8f57]

And yet in North America (or Canada at least) they want to fight murder by banning guns.

Secret to the Blackberry's success

[GameboyRMH]

Blackberries are only popular because they're the cheapest phone with MS Exchange integration, and as you said, the encryption and management tools are good. The GUI sucks, it uses some proprietary communication methods, it uses this ugly backasswards e-mail forwarding system that's tied to a central server that has gone down before and will go down again, and the phone is really nothing special in general.

Now if you disagree and wish to mod me down, mod me "Flamebait" like a man, not this limp-wristed "Overrated" crap.

Re:Secret to the Blackberry's success

[torkus]

I won't spend mod points, but I'll reply. Yes, a BB is far cheaper than an iPhone or smartphone. Heck, TMO gives us the curve for 50 bucks on a 1-year contract. The back end server is handy, encryption isn't good - it's 100% mandatory for most companies that want to use mobile email.

As for the GUI - I'd like to know what's better. It's straight-forward, easy to navigate, incredibly stable. The iPhone is slick but not business-centric. If you like WM well i suppose there's one in every crowd.

There's nothing wrong with the communication methods - in fact they're not a huge mystery. It's tied to a central server for many reasons including management tools and the encryption you spoke of. It's not like RIM charges a per-email fee or anything. The central RIM servers have gone done on extremely rare occasions. I have more issues with my bank website, cell tower, and ebay.com.

For a kid emailing his buddies, get an iPhone or WM device if you must. For anyone in the corporate world, blackberry is where it's at. They're totally unmatched.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[BoberFett]

Does terrorism need to be solved? Of all the causes of death in the world, terrorism is pretty low on the totem pole. And when you look at the cost of fighting different causes of death, terrorism is way overblown.

How many people have died in the US due to terrorism compared to what we've spent on it?

How many people have died due to heart disease and cancer compared to what we've spent on them?

People's fears of scary muslims behind every corner are the stuff of Saturday morning cartoons.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[EdIII]

I don't really agree with everything you said, but the Troll modifier was completely unwarranted. If I could I would give you an Insightful to offset it, but alas, no mod points. To answer your question about what level of freedom we need...

"Abso-fucking-lute-total-complete-unfettered-pure-grade-A-can-lick-the-chrome-off-a-bumper-freedom."

Personally, I will accept ZERO losses of freedom for even real gains in security. Not perceived gains mind you, REAL tangible gains.

You are correct in that solving terrorism is not an easy thing to do. Solving Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is easier to solve than just plain old "terrorism" though. I know some may want to give me a Troll modifier for what I say next, but think about what I am saying for a second....

I am PERFECTLY willing to go and KILL absolutely every one and everything affecting my freedom. Just point the direction. If a politician says to me that I have to lose freedom, privacy, and anonymity due to some enemy out there, I will respond with this question, "Can we just go kill them instead?".

The problem with being evolved and having limits is that there are others out there not willing to play by the rules of your game. Sometimes you have to fight for your freedoms, to fight for peace, as crazy and sad as that sounds.

If the entire Middle East has to become a huge field of glass to save the world for the rest of us, then so be it. Human history is littered with far more brutal events than something like that happening anyways.

I know how bad that sounds, but I just refuse to live with a high-colonic-super-duty-surveillance system shoved up my ass to deliver questionable gains in security in return for unquestionable losses of my freedom. Whatever happened to fighting for your freedom? I thought that was the American Way right?

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with what you're saying but...

How many people have died in the US due to terrorism compared to what we've spent on it?

US companies profit from the war on terrorism.

How many people have died due to heart disease and cancer compared to what we've spent on them?

US companies profit from causing heart disease & cancer. Fast food is big business, as is tobacco. One of the largest tobacco companies also owns one of the world's largest suppliers of medical equipment for respite care.

People's fears of scary muslims behind every corner are the stuff of Saturday morning cartoons.

True but taking away people's privacy to keep them safe doesn't seem to upset people as much as taking away their right to smoke, eat junk or carry guns and if you dare to think differently then you're just un-American and not a patriot.

The war on terror is big business. The governments, news media, weapons manufacturers, tech industry and all those companies in-between try to keep everyone in a constant state of fear so they can make more money and ensure future profits. Its no different to Microsoft's OS/Office lock-in except they use fear of the unknown/getting blown up to keep the ignorant people in line.

Re:can't work even if they wanted it to

[Dan541]

Cancer doesn't give the government power, Terrorism does.