Dekortage writes "As previously discussed here, the health-products giant Johnson & Johnson sued the American Red Cross over use of the ubiquitous 'red cross' logo. J&J has now lost. The presiding judge said Johnson & Johnson's claim against the organization was doubtful because the manufacturer entered into a brand-sharing promotional agreement with the American Red Cross in 1986 — not to mention that the two organizations agreed to share the logo way back in 1895. Sounds like J&J may need to crack open some Tylenol and Band-Aids."
...check if they have a clue about public relations and brand image. I mean, did they consider at all that people might start to see J&J as "the assholes who bullied the Red Cross?"
Sorry, I think they win on this one. You're one of a _very_ few people who pays attention to trademark lawsuits. There are, on the other hand, people who make purchasing decisions by logo.
Yeah, but how many people were previously aware that the Red Cross logo is also a trademark of Johnson & Johnson? Personally, I had no idea they'd ever used that mark. The things I most associate with them are a certain color of yellow and the phrase "no more tears". A red cross inscribed in a white square, on the other hand, is something I associate mainly with blood drives.
Which might have something to do with the reason J&J lost. The Red Cross actually *uses* this logo extensively. J&J pretty much has a different logo or appearance for each and every product they sell. Which product do they use the red cross logo for? Whatever it is, I don't believe I've ever seen it, or even an advertisement for it.
Where do you live? I'm in the UK, and I've never seen the red cross on a Johnson and Johnson product here (perhaps the Red Cross *do* have the clearly-established trademark rights in this country), but I'm familiar with the "No More Tears" thing on their baby shampoo.
It may be different in the US, where this case relates to.
by Anonymous Coward
on Sunday May 25 2008, @08:22AM (#23535495)
Let me make an analogy. Suppose that you are a restaurant occupying and operating in a building called The Slashdot House. You are a for-profit business. Now, for a century or so, you have had an amicable relationship with a non-profit soup kitchen which also operates out of the same building and using the same kitchen. The two of you are not in competition, since you are a for-profit business and they are a non-profit.
Now suppose you find out that the non-profit is suddenly selling meals, in violation of your previous peaceful agreement. Before, there was no chance that a reasonable person would get a meal at the soup kitchen and think that they were dealing with your restaurant. Now, the non-profit is telling people "Come to The Slashdot House and get nutritious healthy meals for affordable prices!" which is exactly what you've been advertising. When you protest that the agreement between you clearly held that they would not do commercial business and therefore not threaten your commercial business, they smirk and say "Guess again, the agreement only says we won't do commercial business for profit. Since we're not expecting to turn a profit, we can compete for your market all we want -- and if you take us to court, we'll smear you in the media as the nasty nasty profiteering people who tried to bully a saintly non-profit."
That's what happened here. The Red Cross was the one that made the decision to disturb the existing customary arrangement. Under that agreement, the Red Cross was using the red cross symbol as a logo, but only Johnson & Johnson were using it as a trademark (literally "mark of trade", remember: the symbol which identifies who it is that is taking responsibility for the product or service.) Then the Red Cross decided "hey, it's perfectly fine for us to start putting this logo on commercial products that compete with Johnson & Johnson who are already using this symbol in the trademark space! Even though our partners are certainly for-profit businesses, we're non-profit!" And believe me, when they started this lawsuit, the Red Cross's justification in the press was not "the Congressional charter granted us shortly before the end of the 19th century permitted us to use this logo for commercial purposes" or "in 1986 Johnson & Johnson entered into a promotional agreement with the Red Cross in which coupons from J&J products could be redeemed for donations to the Red Cross". It was "Bwaaaaaaaaaaah, look at dat nasty, nasty big commercial cowpowation! Dey picking on us widdle, widdle Wed Cross! They big! Us widdle! Don't you agwee that regardless of whatever the actual facts of the case are, dey must be da big, mean buwwies?"
As I understood, the situation is different. The Red Cross logo is owned by Red Cross, and J&J has a license to use it on their products which costs J&J 5 ct per item sold.
And now Red Cross is licensing the logo to other companies with similar deals, thus ending J&J exclusivity, but not diluting any trademarks J&J was owning. If the license deal didn't had any wording about exclusivity, then I don't see J&J having a case, and obviously the judges didn't see any case either.
The International Committee of the Red Cross, of which the American Red Cross is a member, has special worldwide exclusive rights to the Red Cross symbol via the First Geneva Convention (passed 1864).
The Red Cross symbol can be used to indicate ICRC member organisation presence on battlefields, and it can be used as or in the organisational logo of any ICRC member organisation. The First Geneva Convention prohibits any other use of the Red Cross, worldwide.
The USA ratified this in 1882, meaning they agreed to enforce this restriction. However, they did not pass any actual law to prohibit it until 1900. In 1887, the US government approved Johnson & Johnson's trademark application to use the Red Cross on medical products, which broke their commitment to the First Geneva Convention!
The 1900 law prohibits what Johnson & Johnson did, but has a clause saying that any infringements prior to 1905 (i.e. Johnson & Johnson) will not be covered. They're still illegal internationally since 1864 and illegal in the USA since 1905.
Johnson & Johnson want to argue that they have special privileges to do something which both very profitable for them and is illegal for anyone else, namely usurping the symbol of Red Cross and milking its iconic status for purely profit-making enterprise. There is no agreement to take all profits made by branding J&J stuff with the Red Cross and hand them over to the ICRC or ARC.
I understand that J&J donated about $5 million last year to the Red Cross, but Johnson & Johnson made a profit last year of $38.27 billion. The Red Cross are not getting in their way of making a healthy profit. I don't have the figures on what percentage of that is directly attributable to selling on the back of the ICRC's global reputation, but it doesn't come with the ICRC's permission.
The American Red Cross was founded to provide free medical and humanitarian aid. Johnson & Johnson was founded solely to make money. The American Red Cross may be idiots and selling themselves out, but they're not the ones on shaky legal ground here. It only takes one stroke of the pen to remove the last line of 18 U.S.C. Â 706:
Whoever wears or displays the sign of the Red Cross or any insignia colored in imitation thereof for the fraudulent purpose of inducing the belief that he is a member of or an agent for the American National Red Cross; or
Whoever, whether a corporation, association or person, other than the American National Red Cross and its duly authorized employees and agents and the sanitary and hospital authorities of the armed forces of the United States, uses the emblem of the Greek red cross on a white ground, or any sign or insignia made or colored in imitation thereof or the words "Red Cross" or "Geneva Cross" or any combination of these words
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
This section shall not make unlawful the use of any such emblem, sign, insignia or words which was lawful on the date of enactment of this title.
It bears pointing out that use of the logo was unlawful everywhere except the US on that date, and that the US is breaking its commitment to the First Geneva Convention, ratified prior to issuing the J&J trademark, by permitting said trademark.
If I were a lawmaker, I'd look into righting 100-year-old wrongs.
<sarcasm>Don't know why. It's not like we obey any other parts of the Geneva Conventions these days (Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, et al). Why should this part be any different?</sarcasm>
Nobody sees the WWF as the assholes who bullied the WWE.
Ok, but we are talking about the Red Cross--a group that people actually care about. This is the group that you go to when your house burns down and you need a place to sleep. Or the group that you turn to when your government is too inept to handle some disaster.
The Red Cross doesn't have a perfect image, but bullying them is about as good for public opinion as bullying the Girl Scouts.
If Johnson & Johnson would have won this lawsuit, Congress almost certainly would have unamimously passed a law giv
Lately the ARC has begun licensing the symbol to third parties to use on fund-raising products such as home emergency kits.
In fact, this was the reason for the suit. Not that the Red Cross was using the symbol but that they were using it for commercial products which potentially competed with Johnson & Johnson's own products.
When I think of a red cross, I immediately think of emergency relief, supplies, etc. I don't think of household products. What did Johnson & Johnson see in trying to seize (what I feel is) a pretty well established brand with a certain set of qualities (such as disaster aid)?
It's not just a brand. There are international treaties governing its use. These are pretty specific about when and where you can use it. This is why most first aid kits I see now have a green cross rather than a red cross. Trademarks are used in some countries to strengthen the protection.
For some of us, particularly those of us who have been or are in the military, or the medical field, or first responders, the red cross means, in general, not a particular branding, nor the United States Red Cross nor the Red Cross International -- it means that in an emergency, when lives are on the line and blood and pain are at hand, that there is help. It's a beacon in the darkness that there is still hope.
That's what this is about. J&J tried to take that away. The Red Cross is an internationally agreed upon and (near, if not completely) a universally recognised sign that shouts, "Medical Care! MEDICAL CARE HERE!" Ask any random hundred or thousand people off the street what they think when they see a Red Cross on a White Field. I seriously doubt that Johnson and Johnson will be near the top of the list.
What J&J have done here that is so reprehensible is attempted to dilute that already prolific sign of medical care and hope, to commercialise what others already had a far better claim to. Shame on them, sirs. Shame and disgrace.
They might as well attempt to sue the Catholic Church for being (one of the two) oldest branches of Christianity over trademarks over Santa Claus. It would be exactly as nonsensical.
What J&J have done here that is so reprehensible is attempted to dilute that already prolific sign of medical care and hope, to commercialise what others already had a far better claim to.
Ah yes... the kneejerk "the $BIG_CORP must be the one at fault" reaction. Meanwhile, the $CHARITY who is seeking (against the agreement they made with $BIG_CORP) to commercialize the "already prolific sign of medical care and hope" goes scot free...
Or, to put it in much simpler terms - you pretty much have the situation entirely reversed and then misunderstood. J&J did not try to take anything away from the Red Cross - they tried to prevent the Red Cross from using the trademark in question in a commercial fashion rather than a charity fashion.
The bad guys in this situation, the guys crossing the line, the guys violating their agreements... is the Red Cross.
they tried to prevent the Red Cross from using the trademark in question in a commercial fashion rather than a charity fashion
IMHO J&J really shouldn't have expected exclusive commercial use of it either since it was never theirs to start with. I don't think the argument above is enough of an excuse to blame the Red Cross for the legal action by J&J.
For some of us, particularly those of us who have been or are in the military, or the medical field, or first responders, the red cross means, in general, not a particular branding, nor the United States Red Cross nor the Red Cross International -- it means that in an emergency, when lives are on the line and blood and pain are at hand, that there is help. It's a beacon in the darkness that there is still hope.
Hey man, no matter the outcome of this retarded Corp-Fight, my FLAs are still going to have big fat red crosses on big fat white backgrounds on them, and the Soldiers who need medical care will always know where to come.
Your argument that this retarded conflict between two Companies might somehow negatively affect American Soldiers and prevent them from obtaining needed medical care is absurd. Let those two fight it out. F your "sacred symbology" tirade. Nobody who's getting shot at, and shot, gives one shit about it.
Apparently you have not bothered to check up on the actual story. A link was provided.
What angered J&J was the decision of the American Red Cross to license the symbol to other companies for use, in return for a small donation, on the packaging of toenail clippers and tooth brushes, among other things.
The judge apparently feels that this is a legitimate fund raising activity, which may very well be a valid point of law. He also feels that the 19th century agreement between J&J and the ARC governing the use of the red cross symbol is overridden by the charter Congress gave to the ARC, which gives it full control over the use the red cross symbol. That too, may be a legitimate point.
However, if the morals of "commercializing" the Red Cross are what you take issue with, rather than the legal framework, I don't see how J&J can be claimed to the be more at fault than the ARC itself.
For the debate is not about the ARC asking J&J to stop the commercial use of the red cross, something which they have done for over a century. (That, I think, would have been a sensible option.) And certainly not about J&J asking the ARC to stop the non-commercial use of the red cross; that would be patently absurd. It's about the ARC expanding the commercial use of the symbol. Surely, if its commercial use is a bad idea, then the ARC's decision is hardly wise? Toenail clippers are rarely a matter of life and death.
As for the sensitivity of J&J on the issue, I think their concern about trademark confusion is unrealistic but genuine. J&J's brand name is one of the most valuable on the market, and it is understandable that they are jealously protective of it. Whether this was a smart approach is something different.
Their concern was that the Red Cross was reselling their tradmark. Dirty pool on the Red Cross. And it won't turn out bad for J&J PR wise; the Red Cross has a strong motivation to hide thier money-grubbing ways.
When I think of a red cross, I immediately think of emergency relief, supplies, etc. I don't think of household products. What did Johnson & Johnson see in trying to seize (what I feel is) a pretty well established brand with a certain set of qualities (such as disaster aid)?
I'm presuming the court made the appropriate decision here, but it sounds as if the story's more complicated than a bunch of crazy lawyers filing a ridiculous lawsuit. The problem that Johnson & Johnson had was that the Red Cross had (apparently) started to commercially license its symbol to businesses that were probably in direct competition with J&J, and this would have been unforseen in the past when J&J probably saw and treated the Red Cross as a completely non-commercial organisation, with largely uncommercial products, and where any place it used the logo were at best for fundraising.
If it suddenly starts licensing its logo, though, then other companies can start using it to promote their own commercial products in the same domain as Johnson & Johnson in a way that could potentially confuse customers. In other words, any business that wants to start leeching from Johnson & Johnson's pre-existing brand recognition and loyalty might be able to throw a comparably cheap donation towards the Red Cross as a licensing fee, without having to negotiate at all with J&J, and make their commercial packaging potentially confusing with Johnson & Johnson's. This could be a real problem for J&J in the case of competitors who want to get their products shelved right next to it in supermarkets, for instance. Apart from the licensing fee, the Red Cross isn't even benefiting anywhere near as much as J&J might be losing.
I think the lawyers probably wanted to prevent the Red Cross from being able to give other businesses what could be a huge commercial advantage and steal its own good will, when under normal circumstances this would all be prevented by trademark law. Sure, J&J has probably benefited a lot from having a logo that looks like the Red Cross, but it sounds as if they've at least had it for as long as the Red Cross has.
I can't say that I completely agree with licensing the Red Cross for trivial household products. But nevertheless I oppose the position of J&J in this dispute. It was clearly Johnson & Johnson who was leeching off the Red Cross movement and to claim ownership of the Symbol is just wrong (even if it is their registered trademark) They just got lucky because they were the first company to do so, and have done so ever since. I suppose this is the best outcome of the dispute.
> When I think of a red cross, I immediately > think of emergency relief, supplies, etc.
That's what I thought of as a kid. Now, I know the history previous to that. Now, I think of the Crusades and the terrible things done in the name of Christianity during them. That's where the red cross on a white background originated.
The Knights Templar (Temple Mount Knights, who took a vow of poverty (communal property, as the term meant at that time) and allegiance to the order, who originally protected the pilgrims during a period when most other knights were ignoring them because there wasn't profit in their protection, who were a time the most powerful Military Christian order after so many donated so much in turn, who set up the first European and Crusader banking system, had as their naval flag the original white skull and crossbones on a black background later associated with pirates, who traded with the Muslims and introduced gauze (from Gaza, the city), muslin (from Muslim), and candy (from al-kandiq) these were one of the orders that flew the red cros on a white background, the original symbol of the crusades.
Similarly with the Knights Hospitaller, whose order founded and staffed the medical "hospitals" the pilgrims and Crusaders used. This is actually the origin of both the word "hospital" and the association of the red cross with medicine. Of course, while they were a welcome sight to many a wounded Christian Crusader or pilgrim, obviously, the Muslims had a rather different viewpoint! No WONDER they couldn't tolerate the Red Cross as a medical symbol! To them it meant the rape and pillage, the savagery of the Crusades! So they went with the Red Crescent.
However, the Red Crescent is also a religious symbol, so today there's a third symbol coming into use, designed to be religiously neutral while still being unmistakable for anything else. It is often used in international contexts, particularly in the mid-east. This is the Red Crystal, a diamond shape.
So, ideally, the Red Crystal will eventually come to have the positive associations of the Red Cross and Red Crescent today, without the sectarian and cultural negatives. It's also worth noting that Cross, Crescent, and Crystal, all start with C, so the ARC (and other "Red Cross and Red Crescent" organizations worldwide) could adopt the Crystal without even changing initials.
Wikipedia is a place to start, anyway. There are links from there elsewhere, and I've included another informative link on the Knights Templar as well as a Google link, below.
A rather informative (altho obvious viewpoint taken) history of the Knights Templar (on first page of the below google) http://www.electricscotland.com/HISTORY/kt1.htm [electricscotland.com]
" Mr. Monseau (Johnson & Johnson spokesperson) added, "The company does remain committed to the longstanding mission of the Red Cross to provide relief services." "
It's pretty cold for a company to claim it supports T.R.C.'s humanitarian cause, while suing them.
Given the J&J and the ARC have had been using the symbol for about as long as each other and had an agreement to share it, it's pretty cold of the ARC to be selling it to J&J's competitors.
Kind of... the Red Cross (as a humanitarian symbol) has been in use since the 1860s. Johnson & Johnson started using the symbol in the 1880s, and trademarked it in 1905. Although the symbol is protected by international law US law made an exception for Johnson & Johnson as they had trademarked it before the US got round to passing a law to protect the humanitarian use of the symbol.
I'm not hugely impressed with the ARC licensing the internationally recognised and protected humanitarian symbol to anyone but let's not kid ourselves that J&J are some sort of martyr here - back in the late 1880s they saw an opportunity to exploit a respected symbol before the law changed to prevent it.
It's pretty cold of J&J to try this; not because they're legally wrong (which, from TFA, was found to be the case in court) but because morally it's chutzpah.
Every once in a while, the douchebags who spend their lives making the rest of us miserable get a well-deserved kick in the crotch. This is one of those times.
The only other occasion I can think of off the top of my head where something like this happened is when the World Wrestling Federation tried to lawyer the (much older) World Wildlife Fund out of its right to use "WWF". What is it they call the giant men who grope each other these days? I can't recall, but it certainly doesn't have an "F" at the end of it.
The only other occasion I can think of off the top of my head where something like this happened is when the World Wrestling Federation tried to lawyer the (much older) World Wildlife Fund out of its right to use "WWF". What is it they call the giant men who grope each other these days? I can't recall, but it certainly doesn't have an "F" at the end of it.
You have the details of this pretty turned around.
The World Wildlife Fund sat around, saying nothing for years and years as the wrestling organization was prospering. Then, when the wrestling organization was running into it's first financial hurdles, they pounced and dragged them into court in Europe-- knowing such BS wouldn't work in US courts at the time.
Not wanting to bother with another legal battle, the wrestling organization simply changed their name and carried on.
The only other occasion I can think of off the top of my head where something like this happened is when the World Wrestling Federation tried to lawyer the (much older) World Wildlife Fund out of its right to use "WWF". What is it they call the giant men who grope each other these days? I can't recall, but it certainly doesn't have an "F" at the end of it.
Um, no, and you're really, really off base here.
They had an agreement that allowed the wrestling-WWF to use the "WWF" so long as they didn't step on the wildlife-WWF's toes in any way. Then after a while the wrestling-WWF started doing stuff that the wildlife-WWF didn't like as they got more "racy" and, well, basically turned into "let's see how far we can go!" type stuff (including, and I'm not kidding, an 80 year old former female wrestler giving birth to an adult human hand). The wildlife-WWF didn't want to be associated with that sort of junk(understandable at this point), and sued to have them stop using "WWF". At no point did the wrestling-WWF initiate any sort of lawyering against the wildlife-WWF. Now they call themselves "World Wrestling Entertainment." I mean, hell -- would YOU want to be associated with them?
The "WWE" has enough facts that make them look like a bunch of creeps that there's no need to spread falsehoods (even if it's not intentional) about them. It's basically Jackass in tights without the funny. I mean, really -- adult human hand birthing? And that's just ONE of the absurd things I can think of off the top of my head... and those are limited to just the few horrifically stupid and atrocious things I know of that they did. Fortunately, the stupid epidemic is wearing off and their ratings have been in decline. Unfortunately, their viewership seems to be watching American Idol instead...
I'm glad this one got thrown out. How these companies keep getting away with trying to trademark common words or symbols is beyond me. And this one wasn't even as bad as the crap that Monster Cables keeps trying to pull.
I mean, seriously, who would ever think that Monster Cable had anything to do with Fenway Park's Green Monster, the 1985 Chicago Bears, or Monster Energy Drink? Did they invent the word Monster? Should they sue the tabloids for calling child molesters monsters?
I mean, hell, even Triple H
IANALB it seems obvious that a red cross is too generic a mark for trademark purposes. This is an old symbol [seiyaku.com] and is a poor choice for use as a trademark for commercial purposes, anyway. Apparently, it took an act of congress [cornell.edu]to make this "red cross" a mark protected under the law.
Now as a consumer of band-aids I have a confession to make: I think I've always subliminally associated the product with the Red Cross. So from my viewpoint, it could be argued that it is J&J that has been infringing o
Maybe this will sound jacked up, but I was hoping that J&J would win this case. Considering that both companies have been around for near equal amounts of time (one commercial and one non-commercial) for the Red Cross to decide they now want to licence their trademark like a commercial entity, validates J&J's point of view. J&J wasn't asking for the Red Cross to not use the "red cross", they just wanted them not to be able to licence it out (since it would reduce the value of their trademark), and in that case J&J is right.
Perhaps the ARC should have considered this application when negotiating in 1895 or so... or at the least recompense J&J for the dilution of their brand.
J&J wasn't asking for the Red Cross to not use the "red cross", they just wanted them not to be able to license it out (since it would reduce the value of their trademark)
Except that their trademark has value largely because they copied it from the Red Cross.
...and this is what J&J was contesting. J&J was more than happy to let the symbol be used for NON-PROFIT purposes, but the ARC has been using it to make money off of it, and PROHIBITING its use by other organizations!
I know it's easy to flame the big corporation (and I hate big corps more than the average slashdotter, as I've been working in such for many years before I redeemed my freedom), but in this particular case it's the ARC that's abusing a symbol that should be free of commercial ties. J&J let the ARC use it, but when the ARC started "subletting" it to make money, J&J had a problem with that.
by Anonymous Coward
on Sunday May 25 2008, @02:40AM (#23534341)
The fact that it was a cross has nothing to do with religion (at least, not directly) and everything to do with Switzerland.
This is, of course, assuming you're being facetious, and ignoring the fact that those organizations do exist. Albeit only because other people fail to understand where the cross comes from, and themselves took it religiously.
The fact that it was a cross has nothing to do with religion (at least, not directly) and everything to do with Switzerland.
Are you joking? Of course, it does. The cross in the Swiss flag represents the Christian cross, and the people who picked it in 1863 were fully aware of that. The fact that the Red Cross not only added the Red Crescent as a symbol, but also in 2007 added the non-religions Red Crystal, shows that this is widely recognized to this day.
Personally, I wish they would make the Red Crystal standard and get rid of the two other symbols; retaining religious symbols in aid organizations perpetuates the misconception that religions have something to do with altruism.
retaining religious symbols in aid organizations perpetuates the misconception that religions have something to do with altruism.
So, you're saying that major religions, such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, do not promote charity? Seriously, you need to do some minimal research, as it is a central theme throughout them.
We're not talking about groups like Scientologists here, we're talking about groups whose symbols are people who gave up or eshewed lives of gluttony and lived to help those around them. Whether or not leaders of these groups today are 100% representations of this mission is moot; they're just people, not the re
I expect they would like England to change their flag too (though it's a little different, admittedly, since the red cross extends all the way to the edge of the white).
When you're hiring lawyers... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:When you're hiring lawyers... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:When you're hiring lawyers... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:When you're hiring lawyers... (Score:5, Informative)
Which might have something to do with the reason J&J lost. The Red Cross actually *uses* this logo extensively. J&J pretty much has a different logo or appearance for each and every product they sell. Which product do they use the red cross logo for? Whatever it is, I don't believe I've ever seen it, or even an advertisement for it.
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Re:When you're hiring lawyers... (Score:5, Informative)
It may be different in the US, where this case relates to.
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The Red Cross caused this problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Now suppose you find out that the non-profit is suddenly selling meals, in violation of your previous peaceful agreement. Before, there was no chance that a reasonable person would get a meal at the soup kitchen and think that they were dealing with your restaurant. Now, the non-profit is telling people "Come to The Slashdot House and get nutritious healthy meals for affordable prices!" which is exactly what you've been advertising. When you protest that the agreement between you clearly held that they would not do commercial business and therefore not threaten your commercial business, they smirk and say "Guess again, the agreement only says we won't do commercial business for profit. Since we're not expecting to turn a profit, we can compete for your market all we want -- and if you take us to court, we'll smear you in the media as the nasty nasty profiteering people who tried to bully a saintly non-profit."
That's what happened here. The Red Cross was the one that made the decision to disturb the existing customary arrangement. Under that agreement, the Red Cross was using the red cross symbol as a logo, but only Johnson & Johnson were using it as a trademark (literally "mark of trade", remember: the symbol which identifies who it is that is taking responsibility for the product or service.) Then the Red Cross decided "hey, it's perfectly fine for us to start putting this logo on commercial products that compete with Johnson & Johnson who are already using this symbol in the trademark space! Even though our partners are certainly for-profit businesses, we're non-profit!" And believe me, when they started this lawsuit, the Red Cross's justification in the press was not "the Congressional charter granted us shortly before the end of the 19th century permitted us to use this logo for commercial purposes" or "in 1986 Johnson & Johnson entered into a promotional agreement with the Red Cross in which coupons from J&J products could be redeemed for donations to the Red Cross". It was "Bwaaaaaaaaaaah, look at dat nasty, nasty big commercial cowpowation! Dey picking on us widdle, widdle Wed Cross! They big! Us widdle! Don't you agwee that regardless of whatever the actual facts of the case are, dey must be da big, mean buwwies?"
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Re:The Red Cross caused this problem (Score:4, Informative)
And now Red Cross is licensing the logo to other companies with similar deals, thus ending J&J exclusivity, but not diluting any trademarks J&J was owning. If the license deal didn't had any wording about exclusivity, then I don't see J&J having a case, and obviously the judges didn't see any case either.
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Re:The Red Cross caused this problem (Score:5, Informative)
The Red Cross symbol can be used to indicate ICRC member organisation presence on battlefields, and it can be used as or in the organisational logo of any ICRC member organisation. The First Geneva Convention prohibits any other use of the Red Cross, worldwide.
The USA ratified this in 1882, meaning they agreed to enforce this restriction. However, they did not pass any actual law to prohibit it until 1900. In 1887, the US government approved Johnson & Johnson's trademark application to use the Red Cross on medical products, which broke their commitment to the First Geneva Convention!
The 1900 law prohibits what Johnson & Johnson did, but has a clause saying that any infringements prior to 1905 (i.e. Johnson & Johnson) will not be covered. They're still illegal internationally since 1864 and illegal in the USA since 1905.
Johnson & Johnson want to argue that they have special privileges to do something which both very profitable for them and is illegal for anyone else, namely usurping the symbol of Red Cross and milking its iconic status for purely profit-making enterprise. There is no agreement to take all profits made by branding J&J stuff with the Red Cross and hand them over to the ICRC or ARC.
I understand that J&J donated about $5 million last year to the Red Cross, but Johnson & Johnson made a profit last year of $38.27 billion. The Red Cross are not getting in their way of making a healthy profit. I don't have the figures on what percentage of that is directly attributable to selling on the back of the ICRC's global reputation, but it doesn't come with the ICRC's permission.
The American Red Cross was founded to provide free medical and humanitarian aid. Johnson & Johnson was founded solely to make money. The American Red Cross may be idiots and selling themselves out, but they're not the ones on shaky legal ground here. It only takes one stroke of the pen to remove the last line of 18 U.S.C. Â 706:
It bears pointing out that use of the logo was unlawful everywhere except the US on that date, and that the US is breaking its commitment to the First Geneva Convention, ratified prior to issuing the J&J trademark, by permitting said trademark.
If I were a lawmaker, I'd look into righting 100-year-old wrongs.
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Re:The Red Cross caused this problem (Score:4, Interesting)
<sarcasm>Don't know why. It's not like we obey any other parts of the Geneva Conventions these days (Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, et al). Why should this part be any different?</sarcasm>
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Nobody sees the WWF as the assholes who bullied the WWE.
Ok, but we are talking about the Red Cross--a group that people actually care about. This is the group that you go to when your house burns down and you need a place to sleep. Or the group that you turn to when your government is too inept to handle some disaster.
The Red Cross doesn't have a perfect image, but bullying them is about as good for public opinion as bullying the Girl Scouts.
If Johnson & Johnson would have won this lawsuit, Congress almost certainly would have unamimously passed a law giv
Re:When you're hiring lawyers... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yea, because nobody would go after the Girl Scouts [harvard.edu].
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
In fact, this was the reason for the suit. Not that the Red Cross was using the symbol but that they were using it for commercial products which potentially competed with Johnson & Johnson's own products.
Brand recognition (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Brand recognition (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Brand recognition (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Brand recognition (Score:5, Informative)
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Damn Johnson and Johnson to Hell! (Score:4, Insightful)
For some of us, particularly those of us who have been or are in the military, or the medical field, or first responders, the red cross means, in general, not a particular branding, nor the United States Red Cross nor the Red Cross International -- it means that in an emergency, when lives are on the line and blood and pain are at hand, that there is help. It's a beacon in the darkness that there is still hope.
That's what this is about. J&J tried to take that away. The Red Cross is an internationally agreed upon and (near, if not completely) a universally recognised sign that shouts, "Medical Care! MEDICAL CARE HERE!" Ask any random hundred or thousand people off the street what they think when they see a Red Cross on a White Field. I seriously doubt that Johnson and Johnson will be near the top of the list.
What J&J have done here that is so reprehensible is attempted to dilute that already prolific sign of medical care and hope, to commercialise what others already had a far better claim to. Shame on them, sirs. Shame and disgrace.
They might as well attempt to sue the Catholic Church for being (one of the two) oldest branches of Christianity over trademarks over Santa Claus. It would be exactly as nonsensical.
Signed,
Irate Med Student.
Parent
Re:Damn Johnson and Johnson to Hell! (Score:5, Informative)
Ah yes... the kneejerk "the $BIG_CORP must be the one at fault" reaction. Meanwhile, the $CHARITY who is seeking (against the agreement they made with $BIG_CORP) to commercialize the "already prolific sign of medical care and hope" goes scot free...
Or, to put it in much simpler terms - you pretty much have the situation entirely reversed and then misunderstood. J&J did not try to take anything away from the Red Cross - they tried to prevent the Red Cross from using the trademark in question in a commercial fashion rather than a charity fashion.
The bad guys in this situation, the guys crossing the line, the guys violating their agreements... is the Red Cross.
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Re:Damn Johnson and Johnson to Hell! (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO J&J really shouldn't have expected exclusive commercial use of it either since it was never theirs to start with. I don't think the argument above is enough of an excuse to blame the Red Cross for the legal action by J&J.
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Retard says... "Damn Johnson and Johnson to Hell!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey man, no matter the outcome of this retarded Corp-Fight, my FLAs are still going to have big fat red crosses on big fat white backgrounds on them, and the Soldiers who need medical care will always know where to come.
Your argument that this retarded conflict between two Companies might somehow negatively affect American Soldiers and prevent them from obtaining needed medical care is absurd. Let those two fight it out. F your "sacred symbology" tirade. Nobody who's getting shot at, and shot, gives one shit about it.
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Ill-informed comments (Score:4, Informative)
Apparently you have not bothered to check up on the actual story. A link was provided.
What angered J&J was the decision of the American Red Cross to license the symbol to other companies for use, in return for a small donation, on the packaging of toenail clippers and tooth brushes, among other things.
The judge apparently feels that this is a legitimate fund raising activity, which may very well be a valid point of law. He also feels that the 19th century agreement between J&J and the ARC governing the use of the red cross symbol is overridden by the charter Congress gave to the ARC, which gives it full control over the use the red cross symbol. That too, may be a legitimate point.
However, if the morals of "commercializing" the Red Cross are what you take issue with, rather than the legal framework, I don't see how J&J can be claimed to the be more at fault than the ARC itself.
For the debate is not about the ARC asking J&J to stop the commercial use of the red cross, something which they have done for over a century. (That, I think, would have been a sensible option.) And certainly not about J&J asking the ARC to stop the non-commercial use of the red cross; that would be patently absurd. It's about the ARC expanding the commercial use of the symbol. Surely, if its commercial use is a bad idea, then the ARC's decision is hardly wise? Toenail clippers are rarely a matter of life and death.
As for the sensitivity of J&J on the issue, I think their concern about trademark confusion is unrealistic but genuine. J&J's brand name is one of the most valuable on the market, and it is understandable that they are jealously protective of it. Whether this was a smart approach is something different.
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Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
This lawsuit seems more complex (Score:5, Informative)
I'm presuming the court made the appropriate decision here, but it sounds as if the story's more complicated than a bunch of crazy lawyers filing a ridiculous lawsuit. The problem that Johnson & Johnson had was that the Red Cross had (apparently) started to commercially license its symbol to businesses that were probably in direct competition with J&J, and this would have been unforseen in the past when J&J probably saw and treated the Red Cross as a completely non-commercial organisation, with largely uncommercial products, and where any place it used the logo were at best for fundraising.
If it suddenly starts licensing its logo, though, then other companies can start using it to promote their own commercial products in the same domain as Johnson & Johnson in a way that could potentially confuse customers. In other words, any business that wants to start leeching from Johnson & Johnson's pre-existing brand recognition and loyalty might be able to throw a comparably cheap donation towards the Red Cross as a licensing fee, without having to negotiate at all with J&J, and make their commercial packaging potentially confusing with Johnson & Johnson's. This could be a real problem for J&J in the case of competitors who want to get their products shelved right next to it in supermarkets, for instance. Apart from the licensing fee, the Red Cross isn't even benefiting anywhere near as much as J&J might be losing.
I think the lawyers probably wanted to prevent the Red Cross from being able to give other businesses what could be a huge commercial advantage and steal its own good will, when under normal circumstances this would all be prevented by trademark law. Sure, J&J has probably benefited a lot from having a logo that looks like the Red Cross, but it sounds as if they've at least had it for as long as the Red Cross has.
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Re: (Score:2)
But nevertheless I oppose the position of J&J in this dispute. It was clearly Johnson & Johnson who was leeching off the Red Cross movement and to claim ownership of the Symbol is just wrong (even if it is their registered trademark)
They just got lucky because they were the first company to do so, and have done so ever since.
I suppose this is the best outcome of the dispute.
Personally, I think any company
Re:Brand recognition (Score:5, Informative)
> think of emergency relief, supplies, etc.
That's what I thought of as a kid. Now, I know the history previous to that. Now, I think of the Crusades and the terrible things done in the name of Christianity during them. That's where the red cross on a white background originated.
The Knights Templar (Temple Mount Knights, who took a vow of poverty (communal property, as the term meant at that time) and allegiance to the order, who originally protected the pilgrims during a period when most other knights were ignoring them because there wasn't profit in their protection, who were a time the most powerful Military Christian order after so many donated so much in turn, who set up the first European and Crusader banking system, had as their naval flag the original white skull and crossbones on a black background later associated with pirates, who traded with the Muslims and introduced gauze (from Gaza, the city), muslin (from Muslim), and candy (from al-kandiq) these were one of the orders that flew the red cros on a white background, the original symbol of the crusades.
Similarly with the Knights Hospitaller, whose order founded and staffed the medical "hospitals" the pilgrims and Crusaders used. This is actually the origin of both the word "hospital" and the association of the red cross with medicine. Of course, while they were a welcome sight to many a wounded Christian Crusader or pilgrim, obviously, the Muslims had a rather different viewpoint! No WONDER they couldn't tolerate the Red Cross as a medical symbol! To them it meant the rape and pillage, the savagery of the Crusades! So they went with the Red Crescent.
However, the Red Crescent is also a religious symbol, so today there's a third symbol coming into use, designed to be religiously neutral while still being unmistakable for anything else. It is often used in international contexts, particularly in the mid-east. This is the Red Crystal, a diamond shape.
So, ideally, the Red Crystal will eventually come to have the positive associations of the Red Cross and Red Crescent today, without the sectarian and cultural negatives. It's also worth noting that Cross, Crescent, and Crystal, all start with C, so the ARC (and other "Red Cross and Red Crescent" organizations worldwide) could adopt the Crystal without even changing initials.
Wikipedia is a place to start, anyway. There are links from there elsewhere, and I've included another informative link on the Knights Templar as well as a Google link, below.
Wikipedia Red Cross/Crescent/Crystal (and some others)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross_(symbol) [wikipedia.org]
Wikipedia Knights Templar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar [wikipedia.org]
Wikipedia Knights Hospitaller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller [wikipedia.org]
Also see Wikipedia Teutonic Knights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights [wikipedia.org]
A rather informative (altho obvious viewpoint taken) history of the Knights Templar (on first page of the below google)
http://www.electricscotland.com/HISTORY/kt1.htm [electricscotland.com]
Google on: "red cross" history crusades
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22red+cross%22+history+crusades [google.com]
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So, what did the Swiss have to say about this? (Score:3, Interesting)
-jcr
Re:So, what did the Swiss have to say about this? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:So, what did the Swiss have to say about this? (Score:5, Funny)
It came from a world where all the Swiss have little beards and make really bad chocolate.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Unless you use our likeness... we support you. (Score:2, Insightful)
It's pretty cold for a company to claim it supports T.R.C.'s humanitarian cause, while suing them.
Re:Unless you use our likeness... we support you. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Unless you use our likeness... we support you. (Score:4, Interesting)
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We all know what a "Johnson" is... (Score:3, Informative)
Every once in a while, the douchebags who spend their lives making the rest of us miserable get a well-deserved kick in the crotch. This is one of those times.
The only other occasion I can think of off the top of my head where something like this happened is when the World Wrestling Federation tried to lawyer the (much older) World Wildlife Fund out of its right to use "WWF". What is it they call the giant men who grope each other these days? I can't recall, but it certainly doesn't have an "F" at the end of it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The only other occasion I can think of off the top of my head where something like this happened is when the World Wrestling Federation tried to lawyer the (much older) World Wildlife Fund out of its right to use "WWF". What is it they call the giant men who grope each other these days? I can't recall, but it certainly doesn't have an "F" at the end of it.
You have the details of this pretty turned around.
The World Wildlife Fund sat around, saying nothing for years and years as the wrestling organization was prospering. Then, when the wrestling organization was running into it's first financial hurdles, they pounced and dragged them into court in Europe-- knowing such BS wouldn't work in US courts at the time.
Not wanting to bother with another legal battle, the wrestling organization simply changed their name and carried on.
It wasn't a good thing in my opini
Re:We all know what a "Johnson" is... (Score:5, Informative)
Um, no, and you're really, really off base here.
They had an agreement that allowed the wrestling-WWF to use the "WWF" so long as they didn't step on the wildlife-WWF's toes in any way. Then after a while the wrestling-WWF started doing stuff that the wildlife-WWF didn't like as they got more "racy" and, well, basically turned into "let's see how far we can go!" type stuff (including, and I'm not kidding, an 80 year old former female wrestler giving birth to an adult human hand). The wildlife-WWF didn't want to be associated with that sort of junk(understandable at this point), and sued to have them stop using "WWF". At no point did the wrestling-WWF initiate any sort of lawyering against the wildlife-WWF. Now they call themselves "World Wrestling Entertainment." I mean, hell -- would YOU want to be associated with them?
The "WWE" has enough facts that make them look like a bunch of creeps that there's no need to spread falsehoods (even if it's not intentional) about them. It's basically Jackass in tights without the funny. I mean, really -- adult human hand birthing? And that's just ONE of the absurd things I can think of off the top of my head... and those are limited to just the few horrifically stupid and atrocious things I know of that they did. Fortunately, the stupid epidemic is wearing off and their ratings have been in decline. Unfortunately, their viewership seems to be watching American Idol instead...
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Trademark lawsuits have become a joke. (Score:2, Insightful)
The perils of generic trademarks (Score:2, Informative)
IANALB it seems obvious that a red cross is too generic a mark for trademark purposes. This is an old symbol [seiyaku.com] and is a poor choice for use as a trademark for commercial purposes, anyway. Apparently, it took an act of congress [cornell.edu]to make this "red cross" a mark protected under the law.
Now as a consumer of band-aids I have a confession to make: I think I've always subliminally associated the product with the Red Cross. So from my viewpoint, it could be argued that it is J&J that has been infringing o
Court's got it wrong again.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps the ARC should have considered this application when negotiating in 1895 or so... or at the least recompense J&J for the dilution of their brand.
Re:Court's got it wrong again.... (Score:5, Insightful)
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It is the ARC that was making money off the symbol (Score:5, Insightful)
I know it's easy to flame the big corporation (and I hate big corps more than the average slashdotter, as I've been working in such for many years before I redeemed my freedom), but in this particular case it's the ARC that's abusing a symbol that should be free of commercial ties. J&J let the ARC use it, but when the ARC started "subletting" it to make money, J&J had a problem with that.
Re: (Score:2)
Seen here [photobucket.com] in the famously leaked image.
Re:So if they had won... (Score:4, Informative)
This is, of course, assuming you're being facetious, and ignoring the fact that those organizations do exist. Albeit only because other people fail to understand where the cross comes from, and themselves took it religiously.
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it sure is a religious symbol (Score:5, Informative)
Are you joking? Of course, it does. The cross in the Swiss flag represents the Christian cross, and the people who picked it in 1863 were fully aware of that. The fact that the Red Cross not only added the Red Crescent as a symbol, but also in 2007 added the non-religions Red Crystal, shows that this is widely recognized to this day.
Personally, I wish they would make the Red Crystal standard and get rid of the two other symbols; retaining religious symbols in aid organizations perpetuates the misconception that religions have something to do with altruism.
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but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Almost all religions mention altruism as a positive trait, and some even do something about it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
retaining religious symbols in aid organizations perpetuates the misconception that religions have something to do with altruism.
So, you're saying that major religions, such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, do not promote charity? Seriously, you need to do some minimal research, as it is a central theme throughout them.
We're not talking about groups like Scientologists here, we're talking about groups whose symbols are people who gave up or eshewed lives of gluttony and lived to help those around them. Whether or not leaders of these groups today are 100% representations of this mission is moot; they're just people, not the re
Re:So if they had won... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:So if they had won... (Score:5, Informative)
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)