Archive.org Defeats FBI's Demand For User Information 224
eldavojohn writes "Although we don't know what they were after due to the settlement, a gag order was just released that kept Internet Archive member Brewster Kahle quiet. The FBI had issued a national security letter to them under the Patriot Act. Kahle fought it. Hard. The EFF came to the aid of his lawyers and what resulted was one of the only three times an NSL has been challenged: all three have been rescinded. The FBI agreed to open some of the court files now for it to be public. The ACLU added, 'That makes you wonder about the the hundreds of thousands of NSLs that haven't been challenged.'"
It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Change (Score:5, Insightful)
A five year prison term might be preferable to experiences like this [wired.com], especially when ratting out the FBI can save hundreds of thousands of innocent people from further constitutional abuse. I can not demand heroic action by others but I wish there had were more than three in the hundreds of thousands of abused citizens so far. Innocent people going to jail for protecting privacy of other innocent people would shut this monster program down fast.
Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.
Personally, the voting record is more important to me than whether they have an R or D beside their name. If that means that I'm voting in Republicans then so be it. I'd rather have a Republican who refused to vote for the Patriot Act than a Democrat who dropped to his knees and pucked up to the Bush administration. Not that there are many Republicans who fit that description...
So much for telco immunity (Score:5, Insightful)
Boy, I'm sure the telcos are hating this. This story shows once and for all that "the government told me to" is not a valid excuse for violating civil rights.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Resist the temptation to make this partisan. Democrats were perfectly willing to vote for the PATRIOT Act and then try to excuse their complicity after the fact. That is not a commendable act.
Re:GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
A five year prison term might be preferable to experiences like this [wired.com], especially when ratting out the FBI can save hundreds of thousands of innocent people from further constitutional abuse. I can not demand heroic action by others but I wish there had were more than three in the hundreds of thousands of abused citizens so far. Innocent people going to jail for protecting privacy of other innocent people would shut this monster program down fast.
Vote for anyone but Republicans in 2008 and vote out everyone who had anything to do with the poorly named Patriot act.
Us against them. Good over evil. With or against us. Sheep think in those terms.
The emotional rhetoric from politicians never ends and their simple minded constituents emulate that behavior instead of engaging in critical thinking.
You do realize that there were PLENTY of Democrats that had voted for the Patriot Act. Hell, IIRC 99% of Congress didn't even read the God damn thing!
A true Patriot - protecting our freedom (Score:5, Insightful)
Allowing small group of people that benefit disproportionably to the many, to create an indentured servitude is not patriotic, fighting it is. The maintaining of the separation of powers, protecting the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution as well as defending them is the is the ultimate Patriotic Act.
It is time for transfer of power from the few to the many, the wise (conservative) and those that value freedom (liberal), and those that value both, (party free independents for collective control).
Laws of changed such that we have become cattle simply to be herded and this is most unpatriotic.
Re:GOD defeating unprecedented evile using.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree that major sections of the Patriot Act brush up against the grayest of gray areas in the realm of constitutional law, and that they should be revisited and even repealed. Given time, any reactionary measure should be reviewed and revised. Emotions and political actions do not observe Newton's laws of motion. If anything, each action is met with an underwhelming lack of reaction (Katrina and the Gulf Coast) or an overzealous attempt to keep anything bad from happening again, ever, at any cost (America: Sept. 12, 2001-present). There is precious little middle ground when an appropriate response is ever made.
See the Patriot Act for what it was in historical terms: a reactionary measure passed and supported by representatives of a hurting, angry nation. Considering the national mood at the time, it was the "right" thing to do: Americans were more than happy to give up essential liberties for Bush's promise of temporary security. His approval ratings set new historical record highs in the weeks immediately following the 9/11 attacks and the start of the Afghan war.
These metrics cannot be blamed on the whole of the Republican party or on the Congress seated in 2001-2002. Instead blame the current administration for continuing to act as though we are attacked on our soil on a daily basis, more than 6 years after those attacks. The Dubya Bush administration is like a paranoid meth addict, convinced that there is someone right there hiding who might "endangerfy our American way of life". While legitimate threats exist both inside and outside our borders, a bombing, the destruction of a major landmark or building, even a massive attack that cripples or destroys a city will not change our way of life. America will go on; hopefully, continuing to uphold and honor our constitutional rights.
Perhaps the saddest part of 9/11 is that the attacks themselves did not change America's way of life. America's panicky reaction and an adminstration that used this panic to grant itself unsupervised and unconstitutional executive powers changed our American way of life. Such results can not be blamed on the current Republican national party, nor on Al Qaeda, nor on the Reps or the Dems who supported the original Patriot Act. Full responsibility should rest squarely on the man in the White House. George W. Bush has preyed on the fears of the population in every speech and policy for years, reaping the benefits of governing a nation of sheeple. He has made his legacy from this, and it will not be remembered fondly in years to come.
Re:Stupid Questions (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Stupid Questions (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stupid Questions (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not saying that sometimes it helps to actually RTFA, but anyway:
Unconstitutional or not, the whole NSL / PATRIOT stuff screams "abuse me" at 130dB.
Re:A true Patriot - protecting our freedom (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stupid Questions (Score:5, Insightful)
*thinks a moment* So... 44 1/3rd years? Hehe, jk.
They also dramatically expand the power of the government to monitor the citizenry in ways that the Constitution never intended to allow and, indeed, which could not reasonably have been foreseen by the funding fathers at all.
They didn't have to, any more than they had to foresee telephone or e-mail tapping, because the wording of the 4th Amendment is technology agnostic. That's the way it should be. That's why when a case of warrantless e-mail reading came before the court, the judge ruled that this was illegal. Without having to have a whole Constitutional amendment just for email (and one for text messaging, and one for IM, etc etc etc).
We don't need any change to the Constitution whatsoever to stop these abuses. We just need for the Constitution as written to be enforced. That is the problem, and making it easier to modify the Constitution would not make it more likely to be enforced. We already have an amendment that covers these situations; if you think the problem is stacked courts, why do you think they would enforce some new amendment that covers the exact same thing?
The only thing it would make more likely is that when another "ZOMG teh terrists are attacking! I can has ur liberties?" moment occurs, the people will not only allow it, they will enshrine it in the highest law of our land. At least USAPATRIOT expires, and parts of it have already had rulings against it as constitutional. You can't rule an amendment unconstitutional; and amendment is constitutional by definition.
Our system isn't perfect, but our Constitution is damn good and one of its strengths is that it can't be changed easily.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. But not because of the attacks anymore, they fear you, their people. And it's not an isolated phenomenon. You can see it all over the "western" world, with more and more paranoid surveillance laws coming into existance. Most of them targeting the internet, which is a perfect tool to assemble and organize people of the same interests. Interests that may and often do go diametrally against the goals of our governments.
The advantage governments have over their subjects is that they are organized. No, don't laugh, I know how bureaucracy weighs it down, but they have the advantage of having trained specialists in every field necessary. Something you don't have. You are not a lawyer, bureaucrat, IT professional, PR guru and fundraiser all rolled into one. That's what gives your government an edge over you (in case one wants to stand up against the government). With the internet, people can organize and gain access to the same specialists the government has.
The same holds true for corporations, btw.
Now, the internet also allows organisation of partisan groups who won't just fight with legal means but also illegal ones. And that's what they're really afraid of. Since they already managed to bleed the "lower incomes" completely dry, not only siphoning away the little rest of their savings but also pushing them so deeply into debt that they can't spend anymore, the meager rest of the middle class is the next target. The divide between rich and poor opens wider, the number of poor people growing, and it's a matter of time until the mob reaches critical mass again. Their attempt with the increased surveillance is to make sure it's easy to identify the "heads" of such movements and decapitate them before they can gain momentum.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
How is judicial oversight and transparency bad? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Welcome to the Land of the Free.....Have you any rights to declare?
Re:Misplaced confidence (Score:3, Insightful)
The three that challenged it broke the "law" by so much as telling their lawyer that they had received The Letter. I'm sure that if The Letters permitted people to discuss them, more than three people would have spoken to their lawyers and done something about it.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
But that's an exercise for the reader.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Republicans are well known for holding the line and sticking to their talking points. They've worked hard to earn this reputation, and there's no reason to forget that they've repeatedly unified behind awful ideas.
Obama voted against the AUMF and filibustered the permanent reauthorization of the PATRIOT act. Additionally, he wont be tempted to hold the Republican line, seeing as how he is a Democrat.
The same logic applies to other good Democrats. It works against the Republicans - we need look no farther than Ron Paul to see what happens to Republicans who respect the constitution and the rule of law.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:1, Insightful)
When 9/11 happened, I was as shocked and angry as anyone could be, and wanted to get the person/people involved. This Osama Bin Laden character came out quickly as the chief suspect.
9/15 or so (eh - few days later. Whatever.) I was standing in line at Sam's Club, and the guy behind me strikes up a conversation with me for the sole purpose of telling me that if HE ever sees one of Those Towelheads, he'll "run 'em over with his truck". As badly as I felt because of 9/11, I remember being shocked that someone would advocate the random vigilante killing of another person who likely had nothing to do with it. At the time I just smiled and said "Yeah? Huh." and tried to avoid eye contact.
There aren't many people in that frame of mind anymore, as far as I can tell. I think that guy was just running his mouth, and probably never would have done it in reality, but the fact that random homicide was something to be bragged about to strangers at that time really says a lot about the emotions that were running through the country. Worse, because the guy saying it was probably a decent guy overall, but had gotten all caught up in the spirit of shock, anger, and later patriotism and desire for vengeance.
That wave of emotion was what drove through the Patriot Act without its even being read, and it's what will always keep cooler heads from prevailing. I, personally, have learned from the experience just how dangerous those emotions can be, and to always be on guard when a politician invokes them. Unfortunately, the guy at Sam's Club is probably none the wiser, and has probably totally forgotten I ever existed.
So I think you're right. No one party or president can be blamed for what has happened. We the people not only accepted it, we asked for it. We cried for blood when ours was taken -- and who can blame us? That our politicians took advantage of the situation and created inappropriate responses makes it no less our fault.
-CrazedWalrus
Re:A true Patriot - protecting our freedom (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:There's one way to stop this nonsense. (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course, a principled conservative might oppose the patriot act in support of smaller government, but conservatives are on the whole unprincipled.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Stupid Questions (Score:2, Insightful)
You know it's possible to be a Republican and actually support the constitution, right?
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:5, Insightful)
Make no mistake - the teachers unions have nothing to do with it. The students are more than capable of fucking it up all on their own, and tend to take pleasure in doing so.
[BTW, nope, I'm not a teacher, so this rant is not self serving at all; I'm just a product of and a witness to the system, and to me the educations that kids receive these days matches quite well what society considers to be "just right" - a generation of retard parents gives rise to a generation of retard kids, and anyone smarter than that average level of retardation has to really fight the system]
It's time for moderation change (Score:1, Insightful)
Too bad you ended with this gem. It's obvious you were just itching to get your partisan line in, probably in total ignorance as to who voted for the Patriot Act.
This is not a republican or democratic problem. If you can't see the malaise that is affecting our country regardless of who you vote for, then you are beyond help and nothing more than a partisan hack. Those are a dime a dozen these days, if you haven't noticed.
Sigh. Another ill-informed but impressive-looking rant gets modded up so that it shows in the default page view (which is how I found it). And so it goes, as usual.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:How is judicial oversight and transparency bad? (Score:3, Insightful)
Nobody has given me a reason either as to why this needs to be done warrantless. We have a whole court set up for proceedings of a secretive nature. I see no reason why we can't simply expand that court to meet demand, as opposed to circumventing it entirely.
I don't think time or capacity is the issue, since those are very easy problems to solve with more government spending.
Re:A true Patriot - protecting our freedom (Score:3, Insightful)
Nice strawman. Got any proof?
Proof *does* exist. However, to read it will require a very careful and thorough cleaning beforehand with lots of disinfectant, odor-eliminators, and use of rubber gloves. You can probably find it floating at the top of a sewer reclamation plant pool in the Washington, D.C. area. Oh, and I'd skip lunch if I were you.
HTH HAND
Cheers!
Strat
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:2, Insightful)
Just like they wanted to go to war, but now they claim they never wanted to go.
When you start to call parties out, instead of individuals, you are only adding to the problem.
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's time for Civil Disobedience and Regime Cha (Score:3, Insightful)
The entire pretense for the invasion was a lie, we know it was a lie because up until Sept 11, 2001 when reporters asked anyone in the current administration about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the universal answer was "they aren't a risk and they don't have them". We can now summize that 9/11 was used as a politically expediant way to enact the vision of the New American Century [wikipedia.org], whose members rose to being in the Presidents office.
Those who voted to authorize the President to do what was needed and later recanted once they realized what happened were honestly trying to do what's right. No one seriously considered that the President would be so reckless that he would actually make the country more unsafe [washingtonpost.com] to live in and more vulnerable to terrorists. Seriously, why would any President do that, even ones you didn't like at the time? They made the same mistake the rest of America did, trust a bunch of self confessed Neo Conservatives to not invade random countries as a demonstration of power and instead focus on actually stopping more attacks on US and Allied soil from killing more people. Just ask Spain and Great Britian how much of an impact invading Iraq had on stopping terrorism and if that money would have been better spent.
Re:A true Patriot - protecting our freedom (Score:1, Insightful)