Taser International Wins Lawsuit to Change Cause of Death 577
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Taser International recently started a legal campaign against medical examiners who claimed tasers contributed to the cause of death for several people. On Friday, an Ohio judge ruled in favor of the stun gun manufacturer (free registration may be required). While they do have a number of scientific studies on which they establish their claims, it's interesting that the alternate cause of death they champion — excited delirium — appears only in police reports on the deaths of difficult or drug-addled inmates, not in medical textbooks. Of course, that may change soon — Taser is funding and promoting research on the subject. Coroner reports such as the ones in this case contributed to the UN's opinion that taser use is torture."
Be careful how you create your titles, soulskill.. (Score:3, Informative)
A taser has darts or clips with wires which are remotely launched.
A stun gun has two electrodes and requires the attacker to press the electrodes to the victim's skin.
VERY few use actual tasers, and even fewer know what a taser really is.
Re:Glorified Cattle Prod (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Still torture (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not voltage (Score:4, Informative)
Extremely suspect site.
According to them, their brand spanking new ULTRA OMEGA SUPER DEATH RAY (Advance Taser) does not in fact rely on "voltage". However according to the site they link you too: http://www.taser.org/m18l.html/ [taser.org]
"50,000 Volts, 18 Watts and 133 MilliAmps of measured power is instantly discharged into the subject. The electrical discharge pulses in a revolutionary new method of advanced EMD power (Electro-Muscular Disruption) that no subject has ever been able to overcome. The EMD power surge instantly disrupts the central nervous system and results in the subject falling to the ground in spasms of involuntary muscular convulsions. "
How does "50,000 volts being instantly discharged into the subject" = "does not rely on voltage"?
hysterical (Score:5, Informative)
Yes but there is a common cause to these deaths, police intervention with taser. Calling it something else is a lie.
At the same time, it's nice of you to bring up previous quack explanations like hysteria [wikipedia.org], especially female hysteria [wikipedia.org] which was cured by rape.
Re:Glorified Cattle Prod (Score:3, Informative)
Striking them with batons or Maglites can fracture skulls and requires getting up close (not smart if the perp has a weapon). This was a recognized problem even in the ancient days of the Kel-Lite.
Shooting them has obvious negatives if you want them to survive.
Capsicum has variable effectiveness. It work fairly well but doesn't have knockdown power. Is it torture too?
Physically overpowering perps can cause plenty of damage, and requires swarming larger/stronger/intoxicated/crazy offenders because subduing people one-on-one by holding them without damaging them is very difficult.
"We don't do this (legally) to animals in public."
We don't herd cattle (anymore) in the public streets because ranch operations are located where there is more room. Zapping them to get them to move isn't illegal. Nice try though!
http://www.qcsupply.com/Catalogs/12381.aspx?cm_mmc=Google-_-Livestock+Equipment+%26+Supplies_Livestock+Prods-_-Broad_search_559993155-_-cattle%20prod [qcsupply.com]|-|100000000000000026181
Re:hysterical (Score:1, Informative)
Speaking of hysterical... (Score:2, Informative)
If you'd used the valid link [wikipedia.org], you'd have noticed that "female hysteria" was treated via masturbation: '"pelvic massage" â" manual stimulation of the woman's genitals by the doctor to "hysterical paroxysm", which is now recognized as orgasm.'
Not all masturbation is rape, you know.
No, saying all "excited delirium" deaths involve a taser is a lie.
Take, for example, this one [npr.org] - among others [wikipedia.org] - where police used physical force (nightsticks) and the listed cause of death was excited delirium.
That may or may not make it better - these are still controversial deaths occurring during police encounters - but your beliefs on these matters are substantially more narrow than the actual facts, and I'll thank you for not confusing one with the other.
Re:hysterical (Score:4, Informative)
These things are being abused, and they should be taken away from the cops until they can demonstrate that they can use them wisely.
Ah, wishful thinking. How cute (Score:4, Informative)
Heh. Dude, just because you don't know about it, doesn't make it a lie, ya know? I hate to break the illusion that the world revolves around you, and that truth or falsehood get judged by your whims or wishes. Sorry. Want a link?
- UCLA cops taser ID-less student [theregister.co.uk]
- UCLA Taser victim sues university [theregister.co.uk]
Have more links. Off The Register alone, since I can't be arsed to do even more searching for you:
- Texas cops taser diabetic seizure man [theregister.co.uk]
- School tasers naked, oil-smeared student [theregister.co.uk]
- Taser-happy cops floor suicidal six-year-old [theregister.co.uk] (It also mentions the 12 year old girl.)
- US cops taser battling granny [theregister.co.uk]
Etc.
So basically, just because you're uninformed, doesn't make it a lie. The fact that you wrote the above idiocy without even bothering to google first, though... now _that_ speaks volumes. Heh.
But I assume again you won't have the literacy skills to make it this far, so never mind
A paramedic's perspective... (Score:2, Informative)
Mainly, I'd like to address a number of commonly-held theories, and I'd like to help either debunk or promote them.
First off, we need to be clear about what Excited Delirium is. It is not a disease or an illness or a description of an injury. It is a description of a behavioural state with an attempt at describing the underlying organopathology. I've seen first-hand the ED state. People screaming, fighting at invisible dogs biting them, screaming that their father is raping them, yelling that they're going to kill me, etc. These are people who are, without question, completely out of their mind. It is horrible to watch. It is heartbreaking to watch. It is terrifying to know that the police officers that I serve alongside and respect so much would do this to someone.
Next, let's talk about Tasers hurting people. I've had a number of calls to scenes where someone has been Tased. My role there is to ensure that no officers are injured, insure safety, and then treat the subject. Tasers enter your skin through small barbs, about the diameter of a 14ga IV needle. The barbs tend to cause very little injury in and of themselves; they typically stay in the skin. Taking them out is usually a painless procedure for the patient. If the barb is in bone, above the shoulders, or in the nipples or genitals, I'll leave them in and have them removed at the hospital. I have never once seen anyone who's been injured by a Taser.
I'll say that again because it's important: I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE WHO'S BEEN INJURED BY BEING TASED.
I have, however, seen people get critically injured during an excited delirium state directly after being tased.
If an officer Tases someone, they are pissed and scared. It's like stopping someone after a 15-minute high-speed chase. It won't stop when you're on the ground. Officers tend to continue to spin the wheel of force after Tasing someone.
During an excited delirium state, I need complete access to my patient. I need to be monitoring them constantly, and I need to get as much info as possible so that they don't crash at the hospital from an O/D that nobody knew about. However, I also need my ambulance to be as safe as possible, and there is no way I'm going to put myself at risk. So, we have an officer come with us; whenever possible, NOT the one who shot the patient.
Now here's where it gets interesting. Officers love to put patients prone (face-down) on our stretchers. And then love to do choke-holds when the patient gets aggressive (or, again, Excited Delirium). I don't know if you've ever tried it, but it's REALLY DAMN HARD to breathe when you're on your stomach, and you're scared, and angry, and there's a 200lb cop standing on your neck.
I always always 100% of the time INSIST that my patients are supine (face-up) on the stretcher. I know of a hundred ways of restraining patients to my stretcher without causing further injury. I print ECG tracings and SpO2 tracings for the entire ride, so I can prove if necessary in a court of law that at no time was my patient's cardiac function or oxygen intake threatened.
The point I'm trying to make is that Tasers themselves do tend to be pretty humane, if you compare it to being shot or having your kneecap busted with a baton. There is incredibly poor education of cops as to what to do AFTER they've Tased, and there are few of us medics who care. Excited Delirium is real, and it must be managed with attention, care, and constant support of respiratory effort.
So, in summation, people don't die from being Tased. They don't die from Excited Delirium. (That is horseshit, by the way; it's like saying that people die from being depressed; people die from hurting themselves when they're depressed.) People die when there isn't an understanding between the cops and the Medics and the doctors and the nur
u.s. police lack basic takedown training (Score:5, Informative)
Nice.. so peace officers are now equivalent to mindless, monolithic slabs of steel and concrete? Highway dividers do not think, they just obey the laws of physics, and react according to their design and construction.
Police officers, on the other hand, are thinking human beings capable of making a variety of decisions, all of which can change the outcome of encounters with "unruly individuals."
But it seems that North American cops are somehow incapable of basic self-defense, unless it involves hardware with a button or a handle on it. In many other parts of the world, "unruly individuals" are subdued using basic grappling and/or martial art skills. Something American police departments seem to have little interest in.
Check out this cop trying to arrest an unruly individual [youtube.com], drunk or on drugs. This officer obviously has no idea how to take control of a suspect, drunk or sober.
This cop can't even control a 90lb 15-year old girl [youtube.com]! Then he pepper-sprays her just to show who the boss is. Unbelievable!
Compare and contrast with some [youtube.com] of the [youtube.com] many [youtube.com] grappling [youtube.com] techniques [youtube.com] available [youtube.com] for police officers to learn.
When properly trained in subduing unruly individuals, police officers can change the nature of the confrontation, into a situation they control. The cops in the two sample vids exhibit all the traits of loss of control of the situation: pleading, bullying, ineffective physical control, fear of becoming a victim, and reacting to that with weapons to regain control of what in other hands would be easily controlled individuals. Both lost the element of surprise when they physically engaged the subjects without an apparent goal or outcome in mind, and they both appear to lack basic takedown skills.
But hey, if they can make their jobs easier at the push of a button, why not? That's the American way!
Re:FUD on both sides (Score:5, Informative)
>for other reasons, have died after being shot by tasers. It's also been asserted that at
>least one police officer has died in a training exercise after being shot by a taser;
>presumably he or she was not full of illegal drugs. So, knowing this and assuming the above
>is true, would you willingly be shot by a taser again as part of a training exercise?
If an officer died after being shot by the Taser, there was probably some condition that was agitated by the Taser, or the Taser malfunctioned and delivered sufficient amperage to cause electrocution. There is also the possibility of legal drugs causing a reaction that led to death. I am not going to be so blind or stupid as to say that the Taser *cannot* be the cause of death, but I would say that considering the thousands of non-lethal uses of the Taser, it is statistically unlikely that it will cause my death or the death of a suspect I need to subdue. I am still willing to be shot with it, because I am not willing to use any potentially questionable subdual methods on the citizens of my city without first having it used on me. I will not have myself held above the people I protect.
>2. You stated that the taser must be used appropriately, and made reference to drugs and
>unnamed medical issues. Could you define more specifically what that means? Having read the
>TFA, do you think there is a possibilty that the taser is being used inappropriately either
>by accident or on purpose?
When I reference drugs, I specifically mean cocaine, methamphetamine, LSD, and "multi-vector intoxication", which is a "cocktail" of multiple drugs both prescription and "street". In my experience, any stimulant is the most agitating factor in death or serious harm when dealing with police vs. suspect use of force, Taser or otherwise. When assessing the situation, we often have seconds to react, but in ideal circumstances we watch for rapid eye movement, heavy and rapid breathing, and someone taking off their clothes for no apparent reason. If these signs are present, I try to find an alternative to the Taser, such as a lot more officers to subdue for medical assistance. This has only happened to me once, and unfortunately even six of us could not subdue the suspect without the Taser. He threw me off of him, and I'm 6'5" tall and built large.
There is always the possibility that the Taser is accidently misused. Careful training and an honest, open assesment of the data will lead to reducing or eliminating these accidents. Deliberate misuse almost certainly happens. I've never seen it in my agency, but not all officers are idealists. There are thugs who wear a badge.
>3. As a police officer, you and your coworkers are obviously constantly in situations where
>you're subjected to serious bodily harm, and let me be the first to say that as a citizen I
>deeply appreciate it and think the police are not supported as well as they should be from
>a financial and operational perspective. That being said, do you believe that the
>mitigation of serious injury is worth the death of a suspect? Put another way, would you
>forego the use of the taser and accept increased risk of bodily harm if you thought there
>was a heightened risk of the suspect's death?
To say that we are *constantly* in dangerous situations would be an exaggeration. While the "supercop" ideal is appealing, the job is really hours of boredom or tedium, punctuated by heart-pounding terror. I'd also like to say that the citizens of Florida reward us very handsomely for our service, maybe 5% to 10% less than the private sector for equivalent experience and education. I'm very grateful to the people of Florida for my salary; I'm not wealthy, but with a sensible budget I can live quite comfortably.
To answer the question, I definitely believe in forgoing the Taser as often as possible. The Taser as designed isn't capa
Re:Hmmmmm..... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Time for... (Score:3, Informative)
This hypothetical faraday long underwear would need Kevlar fibers to make it puncture-resistant.
This fscking scares me (Score:4, Informative)
This should scare you, too. There are about 90 million people http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/heart.htm [cdc.gov] in the U.S. alone who have a diagnosed heart conditions that range from mild to severe. Add to that people who have not been diagnosed, yet have a heart problem, one-third to one-half the U.S. population could be susceptible to cardiac arrest if they are tased.
I hope the doctors and scientists find iron-clad evidence so that this issue can be put to bed and tasers will be considered the lethal weapons they are.
Re:hysterical (Score:3, Informative)
Most of us have met that guy at least once, or know somebody who has.