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House IP Leader Endorses P2P Blocking 178

Technical Writing Geek points out an Ars Technica report on comments from Representative Howard Coble (R-NC), who sits on the House Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property. In a recent editorial, Coble attempts to discourage P2P file sharing among young people, and praises Ohio University for its ban on P2P applications last year. Coble also suggests that identity theft is a great danger from file sharing. Public Knowledge is running a similar analysis, which argues against the main points from the editorial.
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House IP Leader Endorses P2P Blocking

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  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by KublaiKhan ( 522918 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:01PM (#22680740) Homepage Journal
    It's just a FUD tactic, much like "You have no guarantee that open source software is 'safe'" and "Nobody ever got fired for buying $RESPECTED_MANUFACTURER"
  • just like guns (Score:5, Insightful)

    by KevMar ( 471257 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:02PM (#22680744) Homepage Journal
    Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

    We should outlaw cars too, look at all the people they kill.

    I know this has nothing to do about murder, but they are blaming the technology for the crimes. If you get rid of P2P, something new will replace it.

    Thats assuming you can get rid of P2P. P2P will not go away any time soon.
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by zappepcs ( 820751 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:04PM (#22680780) Journal
    Well, at least he didn't say that P2P would put pornography in the hands of the children... oh wait

    Well, at least the kiddie-porn people would be stopped if there was no file sharing... right?

    Well, at least Ms Spears would be able to pay her medical bills if there were no file sharing... there, we can all rest happy now.

    WTF? This is just an attempt to make it seem ok to filter some things. Slowly but surely they will work on filtering everything for us so we won't have to worry about criminals - except those who work as legislators.
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Missing_dc ( 1074809 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:04PM (#22680786)
    Isn't there a way to demand that politicians explain the idiotic things they claim? If there is not, there should be, and then if they are proven wrong, they should be fined and beaten! Publicly!
  • by Iphtashu Fitz ( 263795 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:08PM (#22680838)
    "Hey, X can be used in illegal ways, therefore we should make it illegal!"

    Let's see, that can apply to everything from raw sugar to automobiles. Quick, file legislation to make them all illegal!

    Compromised Windows systems are being used to flood the internet with spam in violation of various state and federal laws. Outlaw Windows!

    Why cant these congresscritters get it through their thick skulls that there are plenty of legitimate uses for P2P, even in a university environment. A university in Holland is using bittorrent to manage 6500 workstations [torrentfreak.com] and it's saving them time and money. The university I work at uses SystemImager [systemimager.org] on its high performance research cluster to manage the software on all the compute nodes. SystemImager supports the use of bittorrent as a transport mechanism. If these aren't legal, legitimate, and highly useful implementations of bittorrent then I don't know what is. These are just two working examples of P2P being used in university environments in responsible ways, but I'm sure those stuffed shirts in Washington could care less.
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by moderatorrater ( 1095745 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:08PM (#22680844)
    By linking the two big bogeymen of the internet, they're trying to justify more regulation. It's the same crap they pull with buying SUV's == supporting terrorists, etc.
  • e-mail (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Maestro485 ( 1166937 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:10PM (#22680874)
    If we're going to ban software used in identity theft I guess we can kiss the browser and e-mail client goodbye.
  • Re:just like guns (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Itninja ( 937614 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:12PM (#22680904) Homepage
    Not that I want to jump on the gun control bandwagon, or that I want to block P2P transfers, but....

    Your comparison of gun and cars is a bit flawed, IMO. Guns were invented to take lives; that is their purpose in the universe. Whereas cars are tools that countless uses and, Death Race 2000 fantasy aside, none of them are to kill people. I don't want to start a flame war here, just something I noticed....
  • Re:just like guns (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MBGMorden ( 803437 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:19PM (#22680984)
    Guns were invented for that, but that has nothing to do with their current applications. There are many non-violent uses of guns that preclude that, and a technology should never be classified as to it's claimed "purpose". Indeed, P2P (first made famous by Napster) WAS invented to pirate media, but it's now also been purposed towards many non-illegal things as well. Neither should be subject to any banning attempts based on "what they were meant for" originally.
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by muindaur ( 925372 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:22PM (#22681024) Journal
    Don't forget to call them out on their FUD in public to prevent others voting for them.
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by webmaster404 ( 1148909 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:23PM (#22681036)
    To what? Another similar one? Face it, any mainstream candidate that has any chance of being elected falls in the same trap. Republicans, and Democrats both and also some independents. And until we can either get a large Pirate party here in the US or get some tech-savvy senators/representatives who can cut through the FUD that the RIAA has created we won't have a large enough majority to matter. It also doesn't help that I have never, never seen anyone (who was very popular) say much about P2P or other technology except "The US should have more tech jobs!!" which doesn't tell you anything about how they stand, and no writing letters/e-mails doesn't help.
  • by JohnSearle ( 923936 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:25PM (#22681064)

    Why cant these congresscritters get it through their thick skulls that there are plenty of legitimate uses for P2P, even in a university environment.
    Just to play the devil's advocate: Could it be because the supposed benefits are outweighed by the known and (currently) uncontrollable abuses (piracy)? A poor analogy might be control of drugs. Certain drugs have benefits, but the negative abuses by the public encourage total prohibition. Yes, I know it doesn't stop people from doing drugs... but I'm sure it hampers it.

    - John
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by matazar ( 1104563 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:31PM (#22681128) Homepage
    While this is true, the risks are equal to people using Internet Explorer to look at porn.
    So should we ban porn? Should we ban IE because it's easily exploited?

    And while limewire and kazaa (and the many other programs) have a a good chance of infecting you, what of bit torrent, it's quite a bit safer. Why should it be banned when it's has so many good uses.

    (Yes I realize you don't agree with the argument.)

  • Re:just like guns (Score:2, Insightful)

    by MaXMC ( 138127 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:34PM (#22681158) Homepage
    What are the non-violent uses of a gun?

    Paper weight?

    Using a gun is always a violent act.
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sm62704 ( 957197 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:36PM (#22681192) Journal
    The voting box is broken when the media doesnt spread the news

    The media doesn't spread the news because they are owned by the same corporations that "contribute" heavily to both "mainstream candidates" (IE, both the Republican and Democrat wings of the Republicrat Party) in every major race.

    When Nader was running as a "third party" (Green) candidate, he wasn't on the ballot in enough states to gain the Presidency even if he won every state he ran in, and the media slobbered all over him. The Libertarians were on the ballot in 49 states, yet the media said nary a word about him.

    Your corporate overlords, most of whom are foreign (Sony, BP, Shell, etc) aren't about to let go of their power. We, the People, lost and lost big a long time ago.

    That said, I still vote, but split my vote between "third party" candidates. Because voting for a candidate that will vote against your interests is worse than wasting a vote, it's just plain stupid. People don't stay away from the polls because they're apathetic, they stay away because they know they have no real voice. Both candidates against legalizing something you love? Why vote?
  • by sm62704 ( 957197 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:43PM (#22681292) Journal
    You're fighting the wrong battle, kid. The fight is between those in power, the corporations and their lobbyists, and we, the people.

    And you're helping them fight us.

    BTW, I'm a geezer.

    It's said that if you're a conservative when you're young you have no heart. If you're a liberal when you're old you have no brains. I'd say if you consider yourself boxed into outdated ideas like "liberal" and "conservative" you have neither brains nor heart.

    When I was in my tewnties, marijuana was going to be legal as soon as my generation got in power. Well, so much for THAT generational battle!
  • by Iphtashu Fitz ( 263795 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:45PM (#22681318)
    Just to play the devil's advocate: Could it be because the supposed benefits are outweighed by the known and (currently) uncontrollable abuses (piracy)?

    Show me an independent report from a neutral party that shows the level of P2P piracy outweighs legitimate uses and I'd accept your argument. Better yet, show me that these idiots in Washington have read such a report.

    I've already shown a couple valid uses for P2P. Here are a few others:
    • Content delivery networks like Akamai that help keep popular websites responsive
    • The delivery of software updates in everything from operating systems to games
    • Peer applications like Groove are built upon a foundation of P2P
    • Legal music/movie downloads from a growing number of websites

    I bet that most people don't realize that by simply visiting popular websites like Google you're relying on P2P to some extent. They may not be using well known products like bittorrent or limewire but the data moving around the back end of search engines, the images you see on websites like Microsofts, and even the videos you watch on a site like youtube, are all distributed in part through P2P systems of some sort. They may be entirely custom built or they may rest on top of a protocol like bittorrent. The bottom line is that there's a lot of data being transferred legally via P2P for a number of purposes. I bet if somebody could come up with a realistic and impartial set of numbers you'd be surprised at how much legitimate P2P traffic there is compared to illegal P2P traffic.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 07, 2008 @05:46PM (#22681330)

    robbing the young to pay the old Social Security and Medicare

    Do remember that those "old" who are now collecting Social Security and Medicare were "robbed" to pay for SS and M for those before them. I'd be thrilled to eliminate SS and M - except that I've been paying into it for many years money I could have otherwise been investing and that I'm damned sure I won't get back if SS and M go away. Give me back all that money, with appropriate interest paid on it (that is, if it was invested in 1993, it should get the kind of return that well invested money in 1993 got) and I'll gladly help you dispose of the institutions. Otherwise, fuck off.

  • Re:just like guns (Score:5, Insightful)

    by orclevegam ( 940336 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @06:01PM (#22681534) Journal

    What are the non-violent uses of a gun?

    Paper weight?

    Using a gun is always a violent act.
    Competition shooting comes to mind. There are also "violent" acts one can commit with a gun that are perfectly legal, such as hunting. Furthermore, guns can be used defensively, in which case shooting an attacker is a protected right, and perfectly reasonable thing to do. The alternative is for everyone to carry around knives in which case we'll probably have a lot more instances of both attacker and victim bleeding to death after stabbing each other.
  • Sadly (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BCW2 ( 168187 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @06:14PM (#22681688) Journal
    This old man has gone senile. As a voter in his district I will vote against him and I'm a conservative.
  • by LionMage ( 318500 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @06:44PM (#22682102) Homepage

    How is using bit torrent to obtain data that you would otherwise have to pay for any different from gathering up a thousand people, walking into Best Buy and walking out with all the music and software on the shelves?

    Because in the latter example, you're stealing material property. That crime is called theft. In the former example, you're copying data illegally -- that crime is called copyright infringement, and the difference is that nobody was deprived of a physical copy of the merchandise. Thievery means taking something physical or otherwise tangible (money counts) and depriving someone else of it.

    As for admitting that you engage in willful copyright infringement... well, that just wasn't too smart, now was it? But people like you do give a bad name to those who use BitTorrent for legitimate purposes.
  • Re:just like guns (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:01PM (#22682276)

    Your comparison of gun and cars is a bit flawed, IMO. Guns were invented to take lives; that is their purpose in the universe.
    I'm assuming you're talking about guns designed for shooting at people, not hunting rifles or competition shooting. The purpose of such guns is not to take lives. Their purpose is to degrade an opposing force's fighting capability. Often the best way to do that is not to kill, but to wound. If you kill someone, the opposing army just leaves his corpse and carries on. If you wound somebody, he's on the ground screaming and demoralizing his peers. They have to devote resources to carrying him back from the front lines. Once he's back, they have to devote medical resources to treat him. Afterwards they have to devote even more economic resources to assist him through his recovery (which may last a lifetime).

    From a strictly military standpoint, wounding an enemy is much, much more advantageous than killing him. It's one of the reasons NATO dropped from 7.62mm rounds to 5.56mm rounds - the smaller bullets tended to enter the target and tumble, causing more wounding. The 7.62mm rounds tended to pass straight through, meaning the most effective way to use it was to kill. Guns aren't designed to kill, they're designed to intimidate, often working even when no shots are fired or (if shots are fired) nobody is even hit. The decision to use the weapon to instead kill lies with the shooter.

  • by JustNiz ( 692889 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:04PM (#22682300)
    >> ...and praises Ohio University for its ban on P2P applications last year.

    Its one thing for some old politician to not properly understand the technology that he is trying to ban, but one would think a university would be better educated than to assume ALL p2p traffic must be copyright infringment.
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Oliver Defacszio ( 550941 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:05PM (#22682318)
    People don't stay away from the polls because they're apathetic, they stay away because they know they have no real voice. Both candidates against legalizing something you love? Why vote?

    No! That simply can't be it. It's apathy! Bad voter! BAD! There is absolutely no way it's due to having appalling choices or ones that are so similar to each other that they're effectively interchangeable. It also has nothing to do with an endless cycle of "whomever gets voted in winds up screwing the people" or political corruption that's so pervasive that utterly nobody is surprised when it becomes public for any given politician.

    Nope. It's your fault as a voter for not caring.
  • by Apple Acolyte ( 517892 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @08:06PM (#22683028)
    Yeah, they were robbed too, but we're really going to suffer the effects of it because of the expansion of entitlements, the expansion of beneficiaries and the expansion of the federal budget. The Baby Boomers are going to bankrupt these pyramid schemes, but that's just part of the fleecing we're experiencing. I forgot to mention the fact that the federal government has a vested interest in maintaing and increasing these broken systems since they bring in a tremendous amount of revenue. Retirees are paid off and then the rest of the money we're contributing is spent as part of general funds. Few wish to confront these issues. To his credit, G.W.B. attempted to get some reform through but his effort was doomed from the start because of timid Congressmen and corrupt lobbies like the AARP. Realize that entitlement reform will be one of the great contentious domestic battles of the next decades.
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @08:10PM (#22683064)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cheater512 ( 783349 ) <nick@nickstallman.net> on Friday March 07, 2008 @08:12PM (#22683098) Homepage
    We are talking about America here. Voting boxes are mostly empty.

    I'm from Australia where they are always full and voting makes a difference.
  • Re:ID Theft? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Lord Flipper ( 627481 ) * on Saturday March 08, 2008 @02:41AM (#22685166)

    and no writing letters/e-mails doesn't help.

    Email is a waste of time, agreed. It's not even considered by politicians, but letters, you know, on paper, in envelopes, signed and posted with stamps? That's a different story. For whatever reason, they are taken seriously. I think the 'metric' is:
      1 Letter = 2k implied similar viewpoints
    Why? Don't ask me. I think it has something to do with time, effort, and the general lethargy of the gripers, as a rule... hence a 'rule', of sorts.

  • Re:just like guns (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Peter Mork ( 951443 ) <Peter.Mork@gmail.com> on Saturday March 08, 2008 @07:06AM (#22685914) Homepage
    I take it you've never had somebody break into your house. The last time it happened to me, the guy who broke in was a drunk college student looking for the party next door. He thought that his buddies had played a trick on him, locking him out. In this case, despite my extreme annoyance at the imposition, I am quite glad that this was not the last mistake he'll ever make. (Instead he got a police escort to a place suitable for sobering up---a holding cell I presume.) Ending a life is not something to be taken so lightly.

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