House Declines To Vote On Telecom Immunity 341
freedom_india alerts us to news that the House of Representatives declined to bring the surveillance reform bill to vote, prompting House Republicans to walk out in the middle of a session. The bill, recently passed by the Senate, includes retroactive immunity for the telecommunications companies who assisted with illegal domestic wiretaps. The walk-out comes after a proposal was shot down on Wednesday that would have extended the current legislation for another three weeks.
Bush's comments on the issue (Score:5, Interesting)
Read my lips, Bush: We ain't skeered of no terrorists.
Re:Matters Instead (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:One can hope (Score:5, Interesting)
The President himself doesn't feel the need to mention that. He was admonishing Congress yesterday, claiming that: [whitehouse.gov]
Of course, as you said, all previously authorized wiretaps under the expiring act go on, and as the House Intelligence Chair put it:
In summary: There really doesn't seem to be a need for this law at all, let alone the provisions like telecom immunity.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Interesting)
Why do we /.'ers prefer liberty to safety? (Score:5, Interesting)
Are most private citizens like us in this regard, and it's an authoritarian-vs.-population issue? Or are we
Re:Correction.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Lying under oath isnt illegal. Perjury is.
As to the difference, Ill borrow from Wikipedia:
Perjury is the act of lying or making verifiably false statements on a material matter under oath or affirmation in a court of law or in any of various sworn statements in writing.
Ill leave it at that, since getting into the full history would take way too long. That said, I dont *support* what Slick Willy did, but his impeachment was nothing more than a media frenzy.
Re:Correction.... (Score:3, Interesting)
The fact that they never asked him if he got a blowjob is the prosecutor's own incompetence. Asking to define "sex" should have been a dead giveaway that something near sex but not quite sex actually happened.
Kenneth Starr got outsmarted by Bill Clinton. End of story.
Re:One can hope (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow (Score:5, Interesting)
By walking out at that point they achieve 3 political goals:
1) They prevent the contempt issue from being settled.
2) They spare themselves the popular heat of voting for immunity.
3) They continue the perception that the democratically lead congress is unable to take action.
Many congressmen are behind impeachment, but unfortunately the majority leader has taken it off the table and quashes any movements for it. So they are taking what actions they can. It is the responsibility of the legislative branch to maintain the balance of power with the Executive and Judicial branch. If the option of impeachment is not available, they must use what ever powers they do have to attempt to do so. If that means censures and contempt charges, so be it.
Sure, it may be grandstanding, but it is grandstanding that the people, the congressmen's constituents are demanding. If the representatives are getting pressure from their State, from the people that they are there to represent, to pursue contempt charges, then their actions seem to be right on the mark.
And besides, I didn't hear any complaints from the Republican party (at least not on this scale) when the congress was wasting days on steroids in baseball hearings. Talk about a waste of tax payer resources. Who gives a flying f' if some sports star was juicing. Let the league handle it, and if there was a criminal act, let the judicial branch handle it. There is no reason for us to be paying these over-aged pasty white guys to sit around talking about baseball.
-Rick
Kennedy (Score:5, Interesting)
Ted Kennedy on FISA:
Kennedy on YouTube [youtube.com].
Re:One can hope (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not that they're on a leash. The problem is that we've really lost touch with our journalistic roots. With the death of print media, TV has utterly failed to take its place, effectively substituting infotainment where we once had news. And, of course, this was predictable. I made a comment to this effect in front of a gathering of educators, network producers, etc. almost a decade ago, pointing out that the fundamental problem is that local TV pays dirt, and as long as this is true, most of the best and brightest will take jobs in other professions.
So basically folks are only willing to work local news if they are either A. really dedicated to journalism or B. an "I wanna be on camera" talking head with a pretty face. In newspapers, you can't get away with being a talking head, as the written word has to stand on its own... but guess which one of these two is more common on the TV side of the house? Now, realizing that these people in local news are the people who eventually bubble up and cover national and international news, the problem suddenly becomes abundantly clear.
So I'll say it again, since apparently nobody listened the first time. As long as local media continues to pay people barely above minimum wage for jobs in broadcast TV, the quality of the applicant pool will continue to decline, and thus the quality of journalism will continue to degrade until it becomes nothing more than a circus. Some would say this has already happened.
Since I don't expect local TV to treat employees well enough to turn this mess around any time soon, the best alternative is to simply ignore mass media and get on with our lives. Better yet, start more web sites like Slashdot that aggregate news coverage and discuss it. You're far more likely to get both accurate reporting and intelligent questions from a bunch of rank amateurs with intelligence than from most of the people dragging around a microphone and a $30,000 studio camera. I know it's sad, but that's the world we live in, so we might as well accept it and start trying to find workarounds.
Re:Bush's comments on the issue (Score:2, Interesting)
Here's the thing, man: The terrorists aren't all that organized. They couldn't possibly pull off another 9/11. Besides, do you think terrorists actually did 9/11 in the first place? If so, do you think they did it by themselves, without any help? See my first statement in this paragraph. There is no "the terrorists". There are different varying factions who are extremely busy fighting amongst themselves and everyone else, never mind the United States. Sure, occasionally an IED blows up in Iraq, or there are suicide bombers, but these aren't the coordinated act of some mighty coordinated group all orchestrated by one man named Osama Bin Laden. If you really think that, then you probably deserve what the government is doing to you. But please, don't let your ignorance affect my freedom.
Re:Legal fees? (Score:3, Interesting)
The short answer is none of these questions have a clear answer. There are few solid lines in the law when it comes to suing government actors or those who are cooperating with government actors. I'll try to hammer through these with some thoughts on each - please don't read them as statements of a final position, just my thoughts in response to your questions.
(IA still NAL) Actually - I have wondered about this retroactive immunity from the perspective of the 1st amendment "Redress of Grievances" clause.
I am also not a lawyer, just a law student yet.
noted...
Typically, although Congress has retroactively immunized companies from lawsuits in the past, it has done so while creating an alternative route - i.e., creating a fund to compensate the families of those killed from the WTC while protecting the airlines, and I believe they did something similar to asbestos victims (or maybe that's been considered - not sure).
The first distinction I would make is that those are the results of unauthorized tortious acts by companies against private individuals. Government interaction with the companies granted immunity (grantees) was light, providing on the ground security, etc.
The U.S. Government does not fear granting total immunity under certain conditions - For instance sovereign immunity is regularly declared by the U.S. Navy and the United States against asbestos cases from naval facilities - they made a clear eyed choice to risk the health of sailors over time in order to save their lives at war (fire on ships is bad, asbestos helps stop and control fires) and there is no recourse at law to recover damages from the Navy for that harm. Likewise judges are immune from any tortious recovery stemming from their role as judges, even when they're clearly biased, wrong, and abusing their authority for any purpose, no matter how immoral. As far as the private manufacturers of asbestos go - as far as I know the FAIR act never got passed - so that program of setting up a trust to pay out benefits was never put in place. Similar programs are often set up at the resolution of class action suits - which may be what you're thinking of? I've never studied the history of asbestos cases closely, so it's possible there is a wide gulf I don't know about.
Back to my point though - what is sought here is to classify the cooperative act as a type of gov't action (at least that's what it looks like to me). In the same way that you cannot recover for harm caused to you by a police officer who was acting within a reasonable belief that the act was constitutional (a limited form of immunity for state actors) these telecoms were functioning as quasi-state actors (similar to privately controlled prison complexes). Quasi-governmental actors are usually subject to liability under the theory that they are motivated by a profit motive, whereas government actors are credited with a justice motive - a desire to act within the law (and to avoid termination).
I believe the idea is that since the gov't cannot wiretap without the cooperation of the phone companies - they are owed a special protection.
Historically (according to Jonathan Turley IIRC), they have *not* immunized a company against lawsuit while not allowing some other means of redress. Changing the law does not actually make it constitutional, and if you have a valid constitutional argument on the claim that it wasn't legal, this would be a valid argument that Congress can't keep you from suing.
I think that's muddying the water between revoking the court's jurisdiction (which congress cannot do when a constitutional question is at stake) vs. creating an affirmative defense. I know that when the court analyzes the constitutionality of executive