So what exactly makes an IRC network FOSS? Almost all the major networks have been publishing their code since their inception. Given that I've been part of the coding team for DALnet for the last seven years - and publishing Bahamut as GPL the entire time, saying that freenode is the "largest FOSS network"...

As a side note, DALnet has banned tor nodes quite a while ago, because of services abuse coming from those IP addresses.

It's that the network is dedicated to supporting and promoting FOSS, not that the networks code is FOSS (although it is).

I agree that IRC is an odd medium to get support for a piece of software, but I've personally had the exact opposite experience. I've been getting to know git [git.or.cz] lately. Seeing as it's a bit of a strange beast, I've run into a few problems occasionally due to using the wrong command or whatever. Twice, I decided to try popping onto freenode (using Pidgin) and had my answer within about 10 seconds.

That said, I personally don't really _expect_ "good support" for FOSS, I usually assume that it's up to me to figure it out, and otherwise, that mailing lists are usually the best place to look. I'd say that about 95% of the time someone else has previously had the same problem and I can get my answer through Google in a few minutes.

Sure, there are times where I have to browse through pages and pages of hits, but often it's a really special corner case, and then I decide to make a post so that my question and answer might be archived somewhere for someone else to find. Don't forget to check newsgroups! Google Groups in particular contains tons of answers.

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Couple things here... hiding your mask is quite possible on freenode, and can be done in a few minutes time upon request. As far as irseek on efnet, they are not using tor there as far as I've seen and not attempting to hide their hostname, either. I'd say that does point towards the use of tor being an evasion tactic rather than a hostmask hiding tactic, since they haven't attempted to hide hostmasks elsewhere.

It's a feature.

8.4. You should hide the list of Tor relays, so people can't block the exits.

There are a few reasons we don't:

1. We can't help but make the information available, since Tor clients need to use it, so if the "blockers" want it, they can get it anyway.
2. If people want to block us, we believe that they should be allowed to do so. Obviously, we would prefer for everybody to allow Tor users to connect to them, but people have the right to decide who their services should allow connections from, and if they want to block anonymous users, they can.
3. Being blockable also has tactical advantages: it may be a persuasive response to website maintainers who feel threatened by Tor. Giving them the option may inspire them to stop and think about whether they really want to eliminate private access to their system, and if not, what other options they might have. The time they might otherwise have spent blocking Tor, they may instead spend rethinking their overall approach to privacy and anonymity.

http://wiki.noreply.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter/TorFAQ#WhyBlockable [noreply.org]

Particularly in a support environment, the stuff that happens when you are not there can be just as important as what happens when you are. I don't know if I'd call it "the norm" not to log out of irc, but it's quite common.

I'm not seeing what the problem is (then again, I didn't RTFA). The summary mentions that they're going into public channels. Does anyone expect privacy in a public chat channel? I keep logs of all my IRC conversations, and many channels have a bot especially in place to log everything. And a quick google search will often turn up logs for popular channels (#gentoo, #linux, #webdev, etc.)

but in most states a conversation is illegal to record unless all parties expressly allow it. The owner of a bar can't just start audio recording at all the tables if they want to...(video is OK with NO audio, and audio is allowed in "general" or at a register, but recording individuals is highly unethical and probably illegal, let alone to publish that somewhere. I don't see how IRC is any different other than it's "written" because it's typed on a computer so that may change the rules.. from an oral conversation.

Many, many people idle on IRC; logging out means ^A-d in screen or disconnecting from their bouncer, especially the geekier people you probably want to talk to. Barring network hiccups and reboots I've been connected to FreeNode pretty much 24/7 for the past 3 years. I do speak on the channels I'm on, but your chances of having me respond to your particular query (assuming I want to and know how to help you) in the space of 5 minutes are pretty slim, especially if you're on the other side of the globe from me.

50 people's a pretty small channel; at any one time you've probably got half or more of them asleep, and even more out, or off working in another window, or chatting in a different channel.

I see it all the time; people pop onto a channel, ask their question, and after seeing no reply for 2-10 minutes they get arsey and leave. This is roughly equivilent to joining a mailing list, sending a message, then unsubscribing because you didn't get a reply within 45 minute.

Here's the greater point, why do people even go INTO channels if they're not going to chat? There were 50+ people in the channel I was in, and only one of them typed *anything* in 5 entire minutes.

Welcome, you must be new here!

Seriously, IRC is not IM. A lot of people are in multiple channels or are merely idling while they are actually doing useful stuff. You can't jump into an IRC channel and expect support on-the-spot. IRC doesn't work that way. Join, lurk a bit, if you notice some activity launch a question and don't expect an answer immediately.

I use IRC as a secondary support method (next to a mailinglist) for a project with a small following. The people who get IRC are relaxed and polite, even if they have to wait half an hour for an answer and I go out of my way to help them out. The people who don't get IRC frequently leave the channel just seconds before I help them out. C'est la vie.

FWIW, IRSeeK seems to have had a change of heart, or at least is being receptive to privacy concerns:

http://www.irseek.com/blog/ [irseek.com]

Sounds like a genuine response of concern to me...

IRC was and is a great thing. I was on IRC back when channels had plus signs instead of pound signs. I frequented a channel on EFNet of a particular clique I was in, or really a sub-culture. Many of the people from my local area I had known even before joining the channel, but I got to talk to people in that scene from around the country. When they came out here we would show them around, and when I traveled around I was often greeted warmly in a foreign city by the local group, whom I may have never had met, and we would have a grand old time at night or on the weekend, when my business in the city was done with.

And what has IRC been replaced by to a large extent? ICQ, AIM, Yahoo Chat. Individuals sending messages to one another in isolation via a corporate network which was doing who knows with all of that. On IRC we had DCC chat - direct chat without any middleman watching. Putting aside encryption (for both), it's the principle and design of the thing - we were allowed privacy, not beholden to some corporation. But more importantly, there was a social context, it was not only individuals messaging one another in isolation, although sometimes it was, but people hanging out in groups of like-minded people. It had a social element lacking in it that AIM does not have. Yes, I know AIM has some awful group-chat thing (which crashes on GAIM constantly) but it is a small tag-on to the isolating thing that AIM is.

Not that IRC is perfect. Sometimes a bunch of idiots would take over the channel. The architecture of control - channel operators, kicking and banning and the like - those are crude tools and something better could have been (or could still be) engineered. Especially in channels more free-wheeling than #gentoo or the like. But it is far better than the isolation of something like AIM.

Some positive things about IRC - Freenode is good. I like Indymedia's IRC network, if that type of thing is up your alley. I also like some uses it has been put to by programs - Wikipedia sends its recent changes to an IRC channel, and a number of different scripts use it to combat vandalism there. Some Gnutella clients used to use it to bootstrap - as do some other p2p programs like Freenet. All inspired uses of a protocol that is ideally suited for the type of social, collaborative efforts going on there.

There is also TopicSpy [topicspy.com] which logs any urls (images, docs, videos, ...) found in IRC topics. While not invasive as as IRSeeK it can expose urls that were not intended to be public. Beware!

But it was designed in the 1970s and the world has moved forward a bit, and with IRC being design by commitee, IRC just hasn't kept up.

I think by "1970s" you mean 1988 [wikipedia.org], and by "commitee" you mean "a guy".

Anyway, didn't anyone learn from DejaNews? The response to this IRC transcript thing sounds exactly the same as when people on Usenet suddenly discovered that the stuff they wrote on their "ephemeral" public medium was being archived.

WTF? Do you even know what the point of IRC is?

Anybody who has used IRC for awhile knows how to handle netsplits. They are a fact of life with the way the protocol works. And what do you mean "IRC is adfree without a corporate backer?" There is nothing called "IRC", there are individual IRC networks, most of which are volunteer efforts. Nothing is stopping you from finding or starting a network with corporate backing if you think it will be more reliable. Personally I think the fact that it's all volunteer run is a plus and not a negative.

Some networks have services that will do this. On others you can use a private bot to do it. You think it should be done at the protocol level instead?

That's a client-level function. WTF are you bitching about? I'm sure there's a script out there for mIRC that would give you smilies and animations if you really want them. IRC is just a protocol for communication between servers and clients. It's up to the client to format and display the data. AIM is no different in this regard -- your wink is still sent as ';)' -- the client just puts a pretty graphic on it.

You could do webcams with sound with a decent script in most clients. But if that's what you want then IRC probably isn't for you.

Yeah and sending files on IM also sucks with firewalls and NAT, unless you have opened up ports or your client and router support upnp. Again, what's your point? How is this something lacking with IRC?

If those people are basing your identity solely off your nick then they don't understand IRC very well. And as you say, some networks have nick registration if this bothers you. Some will even auto-kill people using your nick.

So write a better client if this bothers you that much. Or even a script for an existing client. There's very little you can't do with the scripting language in a modern client like ircII epic.

IRC is one the most open protocols there is. All of the various ircds are well documented and most are open-source (if not GNU) projects. The underlying IRC protocol itself is simple enough that anybody with Wireshark and half a brain could reverse engineer it if they wanted to do so. Hell, I largely taught myself scripting/coding and protocol analysis by playing around with IRC and tcpdump back in the day.

Many people on IRC, including myself, have a BNC (BouNCer - an IRC proxy connection hosted on a shell account in a server farm), that keeps us connected to IRC 24/7/365.25 - it gives us some anonymity and protection from some of the less desirable people and bots on IRC, while allowing people to leave us messages when we aren't around. It also helps hold channels and nicknames when there are no services on the network (such as chanserv and nickserv).

The end result, of course, is a lot of AFKs - some for 12h+. Please, when looking for support on IRC, do not assume that everyone on the nicklist is glued to that channel waiting for someone to ask a question that they can pounce on like a rabid dog. IRC rats tend to spread out. I myself, am on 8 networks, in about 50 channels.
Also, do not assume that the people who ARE on their computers aren't doing other things. Remember, they are volunteers who have real jobs, friends, and interests, and may also be providing support for other things on forums. ((Disclaimer - I have provided IRC support for phpBB in the past))

Here's a quick FYI for everyone who doesn't have experience, but wants IRC support:

Asking for support in IRC

1. Search the forums/mailing lists/wiki/FAQs on the official website
2. Search Google
3. Ensure you have the correct channel. For example, Nuke is built around phpBB, but due to the differences in the codebases, you should not ask for Nuke help in the phpBB channel. Also, there are usually 2-3 channels for any particular piece of software - support, dev, and general chat. Then sometimes, you'll get Mod dev, Mod chat, Mod support etc etc. The best way to make sure you are in the right channel is to read the channel topic, and if available, the FAQ
4. Don't ask if it's OK to ask your question. It is. Just ask your question. We geeks aren't the most socially adjusted individuals, so feel free to dispense with most of the niceties and get to the point.
5. Ask your question ONCE, including relevant information, such as version/build numbers, and what you googled for.
6. Wait patiently for an answer. People who ARE in will usually check past the channel every 5-10 minutes to see what's going on, however, a half-hour wait is not uncommon in some channels.

Not everyone in the channel is there to provide support, or is capable of providing support. Many are like you, and need a question answered, or have had a question answered and are waiting around in case they have another question in the near future.

Abuse won't get you help - only a ban.

IRC is a great way to get support, if you use it properly. Many of the people who provide IRC support started out like you - connecting to ask a question. And then another. And another. And then someone else comes in with the same question that you asked the first time, and you provide the answer you were given. Extend the support volunteers the same courtesy you would expect in the same position, and all should be fine.

Point of order... Clinton was impeached nor for getting a blow-job by his intern (or even making her play the Human Humidor). He was impeached for lying under oath (a.k.a. committing Perjury). If you or I were to have done so to cover our asses as defendants in a civil lawsuit, we'd go straight to PIMTA prison for it. Remember, Clinton was a defendant in a sexual harassment lawsuit, and sex in the office was relevant to the whole deal (now whether it was justified or not isn't the deal - fact is he was there, under oath, and still purposely lied about a relevant fact in the lawsuit). Since (IIRC) you can't simply chuck The Prez in jail w/o removing him from office first, the impeachment was put into motion.

/P