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Teen Hacks $84 Million Porn Filter in 30 Minutes 479

Posted by CowboyNeal
from the worth-every-penny dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Tom Wood, a Year 10 Australian student has cracked the federal government's $84-million Internet porn filter in just 30 minutes. He can deactivate the filter in several clicks in such a way that the software's icon is not deleted which will make his parents believe the filter is still working. Tom says it is a matter of time before some computer-savvy kid puts the bypass on the Internet for others to use."
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Teen Hacks $84 Million Porn Filter in 30 Minutes

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:21AM (#20353837)
    Could it be that throwing tax dollars at moral problems when not everyone agrees on whether or not said act is immoral is not the best idea?
  • by jonwil (467024) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:22AM (#20353839)
    Isn't that what the chinese do?
  • by ILuvRamen (1026668) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:31AM (#20353905)
    Any filter with a password means you can sneak the "frklg" keylogger onto your own computer, go to any site that the filter filters that it shouldn't and have the owner of the filter disable it temporarily by putting in the password. Almost all filters have this weakness. Of course some keep a log of times it was disabled and stuff but who reads that lol. I'm thinking this one has a disable password on it too and most kids know about keyloggers
  • Re:Fucking morons. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by badasscat (563442) <basscadet75@@@yahoo...com> on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:37AM (#20353945)
    Ugh, I wrote that in haste - obviously I'm not talking about children resulting from looking at porn on the internet. But if you accept that teens are "sexual beings", then you're not just accepting that they're looking at porn. Teens with "needs" are going to fulfill those needs for each other, not just individually. And that's where you get teen pregnancy, which is usually not a good thing for anyone (your tax dollars end up supporting some dumb kid who got knocked up and then can't support her kid, so it's not good for you either).
  • Well... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kjella (173770) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:38AM (#20353951) Homepage
    ...if you're interested, skilled enough to find the crack and willing to risk it, chances are pretty slim you'd stop them anyway. Porn filters are only good for stopping those not really motivated.
  • by nurb432 (527695) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:43AM (#20353975) Homepage Journal
    Then it can be broken.

    The only way that could even have a prayer to work is at the ISP level.
  • Re:Fucking morons. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sique (173459) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:45AM (#20353987) Homepage
    That's what sexual education is for. There is a direct relationship between the quality of sexual education in school and the number of teens who make it through puberty without causing pregnancy or getting pregnant.

    Preaching "True love waits" has a proven effect of NIL.
  • by nurb432 (527695) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:49AM (#20354023) Homepage Journal
    And how do you propose to determine an image is underage?
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gerbalblaste (882682) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:50AM (#20354031) Journal
    I do believe your confusing porn with something emotional and meaningfull, like say a relationship. Its a quick physical release, nothing more.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sqrt(2) (786011) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:00PM (#20354085) Journal
    You're starting all of your thoughts at the idea that teens shouldn't be seeing porn. And to the core of that idea is that teens seeing porn is bad for them. I don't believe there's harm with kids old enough to want to see porn, seeing porn. Don't take my words to mean we should be encouraging it, or that we should make it easy for them to do so, but 84 million to STOP it? That's a little off the deep end of the morality pool for me, that money could have been used in much better ways.

    Your teenage children are going to see porn. They're going to look for it. The "Not MY kids!" mentality isn't helping either. Yes, even your perfect Christian soldier children are going to actively seek out and consume pornography at least once in their lives. Whether, and to the extent that they're able to repress that is determined by how much of your morality actually stuck when you were brainwashing them to feel guilty about perfectly natural and healthy things.

    But hey, keep on rocking in the free world, I'm not a parent and it's not my job to tell anyone else how to be one. I think I do have a bit more common sense than a lot of the people who do end up raising kids though. Sometimes I think it's a shame I wont have any of my own.

    I'm sensing a karma burn here, but what good is having it if you don't use it :P
  • Re:Perception (Score:5, Insightful)

    by IANAAC (692242) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:07PM (#20354119)

    Isn't this what's important to parents? They only need to feel good, other technical details are useless.

    Spoken like someone who is not a parent.

  • by ucblockhead (63650) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:16PM (#20354179) Homepage Journal
    What I plan to do: "Hi Son! I'm not going to filter your access. However, I have access to the router logs, so I suggest you don't go anywhere you don't want me to know about."
  • by arthurpaliden (939626) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:18PM (#20354187)

    The simplest and cheapest way to stop / reduce a kids ability / opportunity to access porn, an other such nefarious sites, on the Internet is to put the computer in a well traveled place in the home, say beside the kitchen and not up in there room where they cannot be supervised directly.



    Its called 'parenting' and it really works.



    Rebuttals featuring 'special cases' will be ignored.

  • by Copid (137416) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:35PM (#20354325)
    That's a very good solution. Alternately, if people insist on a technical solution, perhaps create one that makes people accountable for what they do rather than an easily defeated barrier. Maybe a password-protected cable modem that logs activity? Can't remove it or you lose access, can't just boot from a live CD. Clearing the password would be noticed when the parent logs into the web interface to check the log. Parents say, "Use your good judgment. I reserve the right to audit your history." Any technical solution can be broken, but filters are perhaps the dumbest of the dumb.
  • by thebigmacd (545973) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:41PM (#20354367)
    So he will just install Tor and you will no idea where he's been.
  • No Surprise (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gweihir (88907) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:42PM (#20354369)
    These filters do not work for several reasons. One is that porn is hard to recognize for software. There is no AI that can do it. A second reason is that internet filtering only works at a chocke-point, for example the giant chinese firewall, with its attached civil servants that issue the warrants. (We had a talk about this thing here by some chinese guy. Of course the warrant-writers were omitted, but it was obvious they were there.) You can tunnel through firewalls, for example with SSL or SSH.

    For years security experts generally predict these efforts a time to be broken of at most a few weeks. The basic problem is that the approach is wrong and that it is both pushed by incompetent politicians (incompetence of the 2nd order: they do not know they are incompetent.) and companies that promies effective solutions, but in truth only want to earn a lot of money and know their solutions will not really work.
  • by sumdumass (711423) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:45PM (#20354385) Journal
    Well, why I agree with your sentiment, I don't see why this case of a kid not listening and bragging about getting around things is being diverted from he facts that the kid doesn't listen.

    And of course the parents are just as much to blame as the kid is. I guess my outrage started before finding out that someone spent 84 mil on crap. It started when someone though spending 84 mil to work around the kid not listening was the solution. This should never happen. Like it or not, this entire post is unnecessary if the parents would have raise the kid properly. And proper discipline is part of raising a kid.
  • by Stanislav_J (947290) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @12:49PM (#20354407)

    (....although some would say that's 2 minds more than I actually possess. But I digress...)

    I applaud any successful circumvention of anything that restricts information to those who want to see it. But at the same time I'm starting to think that we shouldn't be shouting from the housetops about it -- this kind of publicly announced hack is just fuel for the fire to the folks that would ban all even remotely sexually material from the Net. It just gives them the chance to say "well, see, filters don't work worth a damn -- therefore, we must make it illegal for any explicit material to be on the Internet." Can't you hackers just keep your little mouths shut, let the moralists THINK that the filters work (while you quietly and discreetly circulate the hack), and let their ignorance be our bliss?

  • by feepness (543479) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @01:02PM (#20354503) Homepage

    Could it be that throwing tax dollars at moral problems when not everyone agrees on whether or not said act is immoral is not the best idea?
    Only when it's someone else's morals. When it's my morals... well, then it's just common sense to spend every last dime on them.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Rabbit Time! (807699) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @01:23PM (#20354659)
    Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with teens looking at porn. But there are a couple important things to keep in mind, IMO:

    a) being exposed to too much porn without any actual, real sexual relationships to compare it to totally screws up your view of what actual sexual relationships are like. This is a good reason to try to limit young teens' porn consumption until they're a little older and have a little more experience. I know some people with seriously f-ed up ideas of how sex should be, or what they expect their partner to be cool with doing...simply because they watch too much porn and don't talk to enough actual women. Fantasy, people. It's fantasy.

    b) Weird, violent or just kind of sick porn is getting a lot easier to find and a lot more mainstream. While I, personally, think its totally fine for teens to look at pictures of naked people having sex in moderation, I think that its probably not that healthy for them to be looking at crazy-ass fetish stuff before they have the necessary experience to put it in context. This is not to say that I'm particularly opposed to porn that caters to various fetishes as long as they're made safely with consenting and not coerced performers...just that you need to take the basic class before you move to the advanced level, you know?

    This, actually...is why I kind of support making it harder for teens to look at porn, even though I don't really have an issue with it. Because that way, you know they'll figure out some way to get it anyway, but it will hopefully limit their consumption. Its like how when I got older I found out neither of my parents gave a crap about me smoking pot, and knew that I was, but fear of getting caught kept me from smoking too much of it or doing anything really dumb as a teenager. Maybe that's sort of hypocritical viewpoint, but I think its probably fairly practical, since trying to explain to a teenage boy why he should voluntarily control his porn consumption is just not going to work.
  • by statusbar (314703) <jeffk@statusbar.com> on Saturday August 25, 2007 @01:23PM (#20354661) Homepage Journal
    You fail 21st century business.

    I used to think this way when I heard about the Canadian Government budgeting $120 million dollars on a database and website for their Gun Registry [wikipedia.org], which ended up costing almost $2 billion. At the point where they spent half a billion dollars on the IT infrastructure alone it still did not work. Phones were not answered, web sites crashed, FAX lines busy.

    I then thought "Oh hey I could have built them a distributed database and front end that would work for only about $20 million!"

    But that is not what they wanted... They wanted to spend more and they didn't care if it worked. It's all about the kickbacks.

    --jeffk++

  • by Casandro (751346) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @01:30PM (#20354703)
    In my opinion this is one of the good sides of censorship. If children are able to learn how to circumvent censorship they will learn an important step to beeing mature net-citicens.
  • Only 1 sin here (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Dakuma (857226) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @01:35PM (#20354741) Homepage
    The only sin committed here, is the Governement spending $84 million on a Porn Filter! How many other programs would that kind of money funded, oh wait we are talking about the Government are we not. Think of the food that could buy to feed people in need, womens shelters, life saving operations.. and on and on. Despite that, they spend it on a Porn Filter. Even if they succeeded, there are still magazines, movies etc.. and if in some distant future they manage to erase all traces of Porn the world over... that still leaves the imagination..
  • by Crispy Critters (226798) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @01:46PM (#20354821)
    "What I plan to do..."

    No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy [wikipedia.org].

    It sounds like a good idea. I always wonder how many of these good sounding ideas will actually work when I do have kids.

  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Paracelcus (151056) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @02:35PM (#20355129) Journal
    It's more constructive to keep kids away from military recruiters than porn.

    Alcohol causes thousands of times the chaos and heartache than all drugs put together!

    Religion has been responsible for more evil (death, destruction, torture, hate, misery) than porn will/can if it continues for one million years.
  • by mgrennan (2067) * on Saturday August 25, 2007 @03:28PM (#20355477) Homepage Journal
    I gave up using these filters. My son show me not only could he bypass it easy but he could reverse the filter and use it as a source of good sites to go to.

  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:3, Insightful)

    by junglee_iitk (651040) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @03:41PM (#20355589)

    teach your kid never to go looking for it and what to do if he accidentally finds it.

    You teach your kid to masturbate?

    I bow to thee!
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:4, Insightful)

    by NMerriam (15122) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Saturday August 25, 2007 @04:37PM (#20356065) Homepage

    They involve teaching a kid to respect themselves and others. It involves talking to your kids about these things. It involves teaching your kids correct principles when they are young and being a good parent. Is it possible to have your child never see porn? Probably not as there are many conspiring men who have their hearts set on addicting as many as they can but you can teach your kid never to go looking for it and what to do if he accidentally finds it.


    Or you could, you know, teach your kids that there's nothing shameful about their own bodies or appreciating the beauty of other people's bodies. Then when they grow up they won't need twenty years of therapy and a failed marriage to get over all the emotional turmoil you planted in their minds before they were able to defend themselves.

    I'm quite happy to watch porn with my girlfriend, it enhances our sex life and is sometimes a good catalyst for communication about our desires and needs.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NMerriam (15122) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Saturday August 25, 2007 @04:59PM (#20356317) Homepage

    being exposed to too much porn without any actual, real sexual relationships to compare it to totally screws up your view of what actual sexual relationships are like. This is a good reason to try to limit young teens' porn consumption until they're a little older and have a little more experience. I know some people with seriously f-ed up ideas of how sex should be, or what they expect their partner to be cool with doing...simply because they watch too much porn and don't talk to enough actual women. Fantasy, people. It's fantasy.


    Except, I'd say in my experience and those I've know, that romantic movies do FAR more damage to young people's expectations of how real life relationships and sex work. The idea that sex is always some beautifully choreographed, slow-motion event ending in simultaneous orgasm makes LOTS of people think they're doing something "wrong" when they first have sex.

    And the vast majority of romance movies, if looked at objectively, basically encourage the notion of relentless pursuit through any means of trickery and illegal activity, no matter how many times the object of your affection says no. Because if you just stalk her enough, eventually she'll realize you're her perfect man! in terms of danger, I'd say that's a MUCH worse idea to put in kids' heads than the idea that maybe they'll meet a girl who likes to blow horses.

    Of course I'm not saying we should censor Meg Ryan films so that kids don't get an inappropriate view of romance, just that in real-life relationship terms it is pretty easy for most self-aware teens to understand what is unrealistic about porn.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 25, 2007 @05:44PM (#20356699)

    a) being exposed to too much porn without any actual, real sexual relationships to compare it to totally screws up your view of what actual sexual relationships are like.
    Um. Why not let your children see you and your spouse existing in a positive sexual relationship? They don't have to watch - they just have to see you grin at eachother occasionally, or kiss with something resembling actual, yaknow, passion. Healthy sex between the parents seems likely to inspire healthy sex in the kid, when he or she grows up. Where else are they going to get their sexual education, their classmates? The TV? You and the spouse have the real thing, and they're going to want to emulate you when they grow up.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sethawoolley (1005201) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @05:45PM (#20356711) Homepage

    That somebody might be happy... would be so bad for you, wouldn't it?

    I'll respond to your post since there is more to say and I can reply to yours and the other one at the same time for one of my answers. First, nothing nor no one (such as myself) says a person can't be happy. I only was talking about not getting pleasure from porn. Are you implying that you have no other source of pleasure? I feel bad for you.

    In Christianity, pleasure is only good if it aligns with somebody else's pleasure for its their gain -- the religion's mythical (and surrogate) headmasters.

    Any incidental pleasure is always denied because it takes joy away from life, and if joy can only be found within the fold, all the better for the psychological meme of religion.

    As Nietzsche says, Christianity makes the whole of life repulsive.

    There are so many other people who have the exact opposite feeling towards religion and Christianity in particular that I'll leave it up to you to realize that Nietzsche doesn't know what he is talking about and more likely has a biased opinion of something he knows nothing about.

    Others have already pointed out that you must not know who Nietzsche was.

    I for one, don't think pleasure is at all a bad thing. That meaningful relationships are much more pleasurable than porn means we really don't have to worry about it systematically, unlike your apothecary soul.

    Hmm, seems you need to fix your reading comprehension problems. I never said that pleasure in and of itself is bad. I said pleasure from porn is bad.

    Because it's pleasure not found in alignment with your religion. The pleasures are so small and so restricted to brainwashing, that ultimately the pleasures are very few. About the only acceptable pleasure is making future brainwashed offspring, and even then, religion has historically debated the merit of such pleasure.

    I'll pause for a few seconds while you re-read my post now with that context in place......................back? Ok, good. Now, God gave us sex to not only enjoy but also procreate however those 2 goals are supposed to be done at the same time, not separate. We shouldn't take advantage of the procreation capability to just enjoy meaningless sex. That's where the issue of pleasure comes from. There are millions of things to take pleasure in but taking ONLY pleasure in something like sex is not it's intended purpose. Of course, we humans will mutate anything for our own pleasure (quite relevant in this case). How often we have watched horrific violence time and again because we find it entertaining? This particular topic of porn was in the context of children watching it on the Internet and not adults watching it to enhance their sex lives so with that said why would someone want to watch something alone and get pleasure out of it when they could enjoy it more if they could share it with someone? Again, humans are lazy so we take the easy way out. We'll pleasure ourselves because it is just too time consuming to find someone to enjoy it with. I can't imagine what will happen in 2029.

    When children get sexual urges, you would have them restrict them for years. That's repression.

    I do worry, no I pity those who live life in constant repression.

    I do too but I also am not that interested in the materliastic aspects of this world to which you think exposure helps someone become unrepressed. They really aren't that great in the whole scheme of things. Sure, if you are a mindless drone you will take part in those things solely for their immediate rewards but more intelligent people will look past the immediate pleasure and see the greater good.

    Again, materialism is by definition, anything not aligned with your religion, so you are implicitly being anti-worldly, and anti-pleasure of anything not "spiritual".

  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NMerriam (15122) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Saturday August 25, 2007 @05:55PM (#20356801) Homepage

    Taking pleasure in something that was not meant solely for that (sex) is not a good thing because you devalue it.


    I agree. That's why I force my children to eat nothing but pureed wheat germ. They should certainly never take pleasure in eating because doing so devalues the biological importance of proper nutrition.
  • by NMerriam (15122) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Saturday August 25, 2007 @06:03PM (#20356861) Homepage

    Porn is more like going into a restraint, smelling the food, watching people eat, looking at the menu, but not being able to eat.


    I love the Freudian slip of writing "restraint" instead of "restaurant". I guess we know which kind of porn you prefer.

    As to the actual content of your post:

    1) Many people orgasm through some means while watching porn. So it's more like admiring someone else's dinner while waiting for the waiter to bring yours out.

    2) Most people enjoy the smell of fresh baked bread, cookies, etc, even if they don't eat them. I love the sizzle of a steak even if I'm not eating it. Part of the reason people go to restaurants instead of eating at home all the time is that the experience is much more sensually stimulating -- smells, sounds, sights. You don't have to eat every plate of food in a restaurant to have your enjoyment of your own meal enhanced by their presence.
  • What your son should do: "Hi Dad! I'm telling Mom there's a log of every site you've visited."
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Jerry Beasters (783525) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @06:41PM (#20357151)
    You're still claiming that sex should have or does have some "value" of which it loses. That's a personal belief, not fact, and that has nothing to do with other people.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:2, Insightful)

    by NMerriam (15122) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Saturday August 25, 2007 @07:49PM (#20357569) Homepage

    taking pleasure in something is not inherently bad however if you are addicted to it and/or it affects your life then there is a problem.


    Where has anyone ever disagreed with that? It's exactly what we've all been saying.

    You're the only one who has labeled porn as inherently bad and destructive, due apparently to your religious beliefs.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:3, Insightful)

    by White Shade (57215) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @08:06PM (#20357665)
    You pretty much said what I was going to say...

    The only situation in which porn is really a bad thing is when no one has ever taught the kid about how life really is, what sex actually is, and things of that nature. A kid whose first introduction to sex is by seeing porn either by themselves or being introduced to it by a friend, has a good chance of getting some sort of warped ideas; either insecurity about their own bodies (men and women both!) or by getting unrealistic and messed up assumptions about what sex is actually like.

    However, if you teach a kid about respecting people, self esteem, and how to treat people, and at least a little bit about how relationships actually work, then if they see porn, then they'll have the context in which to understand it. They'll just take it for the entertainment that it's supposed to be, and they'll know not to apply what they 'learn' from porn to real life. Even the sick shit; if the kid knows that some people are 'in' to really weird shit, and that in a controlled environment even the weird shit is okay, then the worst that'll happen to the kid is that he'll get a good laugh and be like "ew I NEVER want to do that". Or he'll be interested by it, and will have been raised in an emotionally supportive environment and will hopefully understand how to be safe.

    In some ways, highly conservative families might actually be right in thinking that porn is dangerous for kids; their OWN kids at least. I would tend to believe that many of the families that bitch about how dangerous porn is, probably don't have an open and honest communication with their kids about sexuality, and so when (not if) their kids see the porn, they're going to probably have problems because of it. They're creating their own nightmare scenario.

    It is pretty sad though. It would be nice if humanity would grow up and realize that porn is a heck of a lot of fun and that there are other things to be concerned about besides some cock and balls and boobies.

  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DMadCat (643046) <dmadcat@moondans . c om> on Saturday August 25, 2007 @08:44PM (#20357877)
    Too much pleasure is a bad thing if it means you are addicted to it (porn, money, etc.) and it affects your life and relationships.

    Does this include taking pleasure in religious worship?
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:1, Insightful)

    by fatalGlory (1060870) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @10:34PM (#20358347) Homepage

    When children get sexual urges, you would have them restrict them for years. That's repression.


    One trouble with this view, it assumes that all [sexual] urges are good and healthy. This may not be the case. Rape starts as a sexual urge - I think we can agree that this urge should definitely be restricted! Maybe porn and masturbation are less extreme and only hurt the self rather than another person, but that still doesn't necessarily make them a good and healthy thing to do.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kennygraham (894697) on Saturday August 25, 2007 @11:31PM (#20358635)

    Sure if you are an idiot and don't know how to control yourself.

    Agreed. Like most things, porn should be in moderation.

    Too much pleasure is a bad thing if it means you are addicted to it (porn, money, etc.) and it affects your life and relationships. Therefore pleasure is good as long as it is received responsibly.

    Agreed again.

    Taking pleasure in something that was not meant solely for that (sex) is not a good thing because you devalue it.

    However, there's one gaping flaw with that reasoning (the Natural Law argument). It means all sex that's not for the purpose of procreation is bad. So I hope you never use birth control or condoms.

    Side note: Wow, you think taking pleasure in sex is bad? I feel sad for your wife if you have one.

    Endorsing that behavior (watching porn) devalues sex as well and in addition you end up taking pleasure in yourself.

    I think the largest value of sex comes from its pleasure. If everybody had a kid every time they had sex... wow.

    It's a little bit akin to vanity in my opinion. We wouldn't want kids to prefer pleasuring themselves over someone else (when watching porn)

    I've yet to meet anyone who prefers porn to actual sex. And most of my friends watch a LOT of porn (that's why I'm on slashdot).

    not to mention the fact that they are abusing the method we were given to procreate in order to accomplish their materalistic goals.

    As I said above, that makes all contraception is immoral. But to take it from a different angle... what purpose does the clitoris serve in your world-view? Its only function is to make sex pleasureful for the woman.

  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by name*censored* (884880) on Sunday August 26, 2007 @01:13AM (#20359411)
    MODERATORS MOD THIS GUY UP - if I had any meta mod points they'd all go to you.

    Up until about 12 years old, I was horribly confused as to how on earth millions of people ended up actually meeting, loving, and BEING LOVED IN RETURN by "Mr/Mrs Right". These (disney/romantic/etc) movies had misled me so much that I literally thought that there was only one person you would ever actually possibly fall in love with. I thought it ridiculously improbable that they would also fall in love with you in return (seemed to be more likely that their "one" person could be a different, third person, and the third persons' "one" could be a fourth, etc etc). As in porn, there was no realistic alternate view offered, but unlike porn, these movies were not presented as blatantly 'fantastic'.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sethawoolley (1005201) on Sunday August 26, 2007 @01:58AM (#20359699) Homepage
    If it makes you feel better, like many humans, I'm capable of quoting something somebody said before me that was a succinct example of a point I'm making without agreeing with everything else they said.

    Quite aside from Nietzsche, although he agreed with me, Christianity started as a Greek Mystery Cult (although I called it a Hellenistic Mystery Religion, the technical, non-loaded term), and has since evolved, but it hasn't strayed too far from its roots since the Bible, while not a complete encapsulation of Christian thought, is fairly well accepted as the definer of Christianity. Yes, there have been lots of changes in Christianity, and modern Christianity looks nothing like it used to (at many points in its history -- although when I say "its", I know it's actually a large tree of denominations).

    But ultimately, my point is valid in that its theological foundation still rests (unless you're a fringe Christian) quite squarely with the salvation theology developed by the Hellenistic Mystery Religions.

    I don't think Christianity is capable of providing any tool for explaining rationally to or raising mentally sane children. Yes, some Christian denominations allow other things into their belief system that are not Christian in origin, but that is a non-Christian and secular aspect of their particular denomination. Liberal Christians, for example, follow many non-Christian ideological systems (Marxism/Liberation Theology isn't Christian) and American Evangelicals of the Right follow many non-Christian ideological systems, too (economic liberalism is definitely not Christian). They think it is, but they are deluding themselves. They're picking and choosing passages that are merely one part of myriad contradictions and conducting exegeses that aren't part of the theological core of their own religion. This is in fact, the major danger of catechisms that claim universal application (fundamentalism) like Christianity and Islam.

    And yes, too, somebody is probably going to ask how I am morally/ethically/correctly able to arrogantly proclaim what is Christian since I'm not a Christian? I study Christianity and other religions very deeply, from an historical perspective. No, I don't believe them, but that doesn't diminish my ability to understand history -- in fact, my lack of faith gives me a more unbiased perspective into their evolutions and synchretisms than they will ever have. Most Christians are really simpletons who know very little about their religion, or, if they have a sophisticated understanding of their own religion, they have just been able to compartmentalize the passages that barely agree with their own world view, however created.
  • Re:Motivated Youth (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sethawoolley (1005201) on Sunday August 26, 2007 @04:41AM (#20360503) Homepage

    It's not the pleasure that's the problem... Drugs and alcohol are pleasurable too you know, that doesn't mean that they can't become problematic.

    Personally I quit teh pr0n because I eventually ended up having incredibly screwed up thoughts run through my head, the kind of stuffs rapists are made out of. =P So don't tell me there's nothing wrong with it, I know first hand what can happen to kids if you put strange/sexually violent thoughts in to their heads. On the other hand, I had parents who entirelly supressed all that kind of stuff, and I ended up associating sex with sin and darkness and bad and such, so it's no suprise that when I couldn't help but obey my nature that it all came out skewed. So for a solid three months, as an eighteen year old male teenager, I willingly supressed every sexual thought I had, until I decided I had the will to maintain I healthy balance. Now I'm fine, for the most part.

    Do the cases like me in the world merit a block on porn? God no. But you argue beyond the blocking of porn.

    I actually pointed out that porn specifically had built-in constraints. The one I pointed out had to do with relationship sex being much more pleasurable than masturbation and thus a systematic limit. The human body has others it has developed over eons. For example, males have a refractory period after ejaculation and females have ovulatory heat and highly selective sexual drives due to their biased investment in children.

    As far as drugs, those are exploiting evolutionary heuristics and as such are more dangerous, but we have developed systems that help control this too, although they aren't completely accurate (as in Marijuana's case). Limiting drugs to prescription use has actually worked out fairly well (but note that treatment programs for those that fall through the cracks are much better than criminalization).

    Porn is definitely not something, due to its systematic limits, that we should be controlling as badly as people want to control it. In your case, it's likely that your Christian upbringing is actually responsible for your thoughts, and that porn is the victim of religion again.

    As for the cherishing guilt thing about Christians, you clearly, like many others, missed the point. Take a look at a few of the writings of Paul... Such as First Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." Care telling me where that fits in to cherishing guilt?

    I think you simply don't understand Paul. In First Corinthians 7, he makes quite clear my point that anything not for the benefit of Christianity is bad. Sexual pleasure in particular is shunned by him completely there. He makes an exception that fits with my theory perfectly: That if you have to fornicate, do it in marriage (unstated is that a child of constant Christian parentage is easier to brainwash).

    Back to First Corinthians 10, let me unambiguize Paul in a less cryptic translation: "All things are of [men's] laws, but not all things are expedient, nor are they edifying." He's simply saying that regardless of the legal situation of things, some are good and some are bad. That your translation uses the term expedient for his negative is telling, too. Expediency just means that it's more efficient, with a connotation that it's without regard to good or bad. That implies to me that efficiency is likely to lead to badness, which is exactly the assumption that I'm arguing against. In any case, even if you read it without that context, it's still damning to your point: he's making the point that despite legality, there's a set of restrictions of what you _should_ do, and in actual context, the "should" includes sexual restrictions of pornography: it's still a sin if you think of it in your heart. I would only hope you know what I'm referring to in that last sentence.

    Interpreting that quote as you do merely illustrates another point I made in this thread that

% A bank is a place where they lend you an umbrella in fair weather and ask for it back the when it begins to rain. -- Robert Frost

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