Judge Orders TorrentSpy to Turn Over RAM 726
virgil_disgr4ce writes "In an impressive example of the gap of understanding between legal officials and technology, U.S. Magistrate Judge Jacqueline Chooljian 'found that a computer server's RAM, or random-access memory, is a tangible document that can be stored and must be turned over in a lawsuit.' ZDNet, among others, reports on the ruling and its potential for invasion of privacy."
invasion of privacy (Score:2, Insightful)
Blank RAM (Score:5, Insightful)
What?? (Score:1, Insightful)
RAM is, by definition, temporary data storage. Very temporary. How exactly does the judge think this could be accomplished in practice? You can't exactly pop a RAM card out of a machine, bring it to court, and expect there to be anything usable or readable on it when you get there. Nor could you log more than a tiny fraction of what goes through it (and even doing that would take a great deal of storage capacity over time). Do judges just think computers are magic boxes which they can order to do whatever they may like, and that there are no limits of technical feasibility?
Judges shouldn't be allowed on these cases. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Blank RAM (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Judges shouldn't be allowed on these cases. (Score:2, Insightful)
Torrentspy has been ordered to retain records of all of the information that is in their RAM as part of discovery. Not turn the physical RAM chips over to the court.
Re:What they want you to do is (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:invasion of privacy (Score:3, Insightful)
oh please let it be so... that would show just how ridiculous it is... the sheer amount of disk space and processor cycles required to effectively record the state of RAM for enterprise servers would bring this whole stupid ruling crashing down...
Re:What's the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure... and I want a unicorn for my birthday... I'm just as likely to get it.
That said, what you've written makes a whole lot more sense.
The question I have is, how feasible is it to log all IP addresses from the RAM and associate them with the transactions in question?
Re:invasion of privacy (Score:5, Insightful)
Wholly agree. Another implication in the article is that someone could hit you with a court order, and the moment you were served, if your machine was on, turning it off (or even killing a process or doing something that caused a pageout) could be destruction of evidence.
Over Simplified Headline... (Score:5, Insightful)
The more worrying demonstration of ignorance for me is:
"To imagine my information being disseminated without my written or verbal consent is unnerving," she said. "Then again, if I'm doing something I know is illegal, can I protest?"
If you smoke dope in your own home, can you protest if the police break in without any kind of a warrant?
If you like oral sex in any of the states that ban it, can you protest that your landlord installed a hidden video camera to catch it?
If you had depression and were hospitalized for being potentially suicidal, can you protest if the hospital gives the information to a former spouse who's trying to get child custody?
Of course you can damn well protest. Violation of your privacy is not acceptable simply because you're happening to commit a crime at the time.
It's especially not acceptable if you're not even necessarily committing a crime (seizing all server logs of all people using a torrent when only some of them are sharing copyrighted information over it). "Many people in group X are criminals, thus we're pulling all information on group X" is absolutely not acceptable. Imagine if the argument was "Many people in this housing project are involved with drugs. So we're demanding complete phone taps for everyone that lives there and we'll decide who's a criminal once we have that."
Re:What's the problem? Ordered Recording! (Score:5, Insightful)
The meatspace equivalent to RAM-recording is to require conversations to be taped and those tapes to be produced. Worse (more intrusive) actually, since RAM must be slowed to be recorded. RAM is as ephemeral as air.
I expect an appeal. I understand the desireability and value of the evidence, but rules are rules.
Re:You would think that??? (Score:5, Insightful)
The order is far closer to an order to maintain logs than it is a request to pull the RAM out of the server and mail in. But being dramatic about how stupidly stupid the MPAA is and Judges and everybody but Slashdot geeks is much more fun than actually reading and understanding a court order.
What is most worrisome about the ruling, if everyone would shut up about physical RAM chips, is that a transient collection of 1s and 0s is considered a 'document'.
Thought control (Score:4, Insightful)
For purely technical reasons, we have a convention now that a person's thoughts are private. We have no technical way of reading a person's active thoughts or dreams trolling their memories. We have different levels of social responsibility for a person's thoughts and actions.
Aside from the technical issues of volatility, this issue is central to what information is public and what information is private. Taking a copy of a computer's RAM, which is technically possible in a running computer using, say and external hard drive, by order of a court, is a very real possibility, and one that has extremely deep implications for what information society deems as "discoverable".
I think the real issue here - the one that would be fascinating to discuss - is for senescent beings (and computers are marching that way closer and closer), is there a line that we should not cross and allow other beings (humans, computers when we agree they are sentient) to have truly private thoughts? According to the mentality of this ruling, no any information you can grab is fair game. It bodes very poorly for future generations with highly advanced MRI devices that can read thoughts.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Blank RAM (Score:4, Insightful)
Inept ? Incompetent ? You just described one of the most brilliant schemes to get around the laws proctecting ordinary citizens from arbitrary arrest I've ever heard of, and you call the people who came up with it incompetent ? Just what are your standards for competence, pray tell ?
Re:Over Simplified Headline... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:HD (Score:3, Insightful)
What if he said "Oh, he's not guilty, but I really meant 5 years in prison."
Re:What's the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
You were apparently right about the link getting slashdotted. Nevertheless, while the theory (bit flips have a side effect on the physical material that can be detected with sufficient effort) is at least plausible, I don't think it leads to anything resembling a practical solution:
Read the judgement (Score:3, Insightful)
They failed to make that case & I doubt they could.
Whilst ephemeral, data is being captured in RAM - to maintain a session of course they've to identify the IP. It isn't really all that hard to write that data to disk. Ok the logfiles would be a few GB a day - from technical viewpoint the judge's request is reasonable.
Re:What's the problem? Ordered Recording! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mandatory logging (Score:3, Insightful)
If they want the RAM dump, one could just dump the binary to a 50,000-page Word document with 6-point font and hand that in. Not overly useful, but does fit with the draconian requirement to create documents of all RAM states.
And you thought Windows was slow now... just wait until you have to dump every RAM state every 64ms.
Re:Blank RAM (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
I suggest TorrentSpy create a memory dump off the RAM and give the printout to the judge. Since the data keeps changing, they can also ask the judge when they need to do another memory dump.
God I hope they use NAT (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:is the ruling about physical RAM at all? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:is the ruling about physical RAM at all? (Score:2, Insightful)
Which, despite the spin and your personal feeling about torrents is not unreasonable. Let's suppose I gathered information about murders in Ram and make a conscious decision to delete it rather than storing it on disk. Should that be legal? Or should the judge have the power to force me to write the log to disk in future if someone tries to subpoena it?
Re:What's the problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
As funny as this is, the problem is that most judges have a sense of humor that is directly proportional to their understanding of the subject matter. In other words, if the judge is confused, he's not likely to find anything funny about it (even if the rest of us do).
Re:is the ruling about physical RAM at all? (Score:3, Insightful)
From a performance standpoint, that is insane. You won't be able to serve as many users if you are doing that level of logging, it's a lot of I/O traffic. Especially if it's a single log file for all client-handling threads; you are adding an artificial thread-synchronized block of code to every action. Ouch!
The problem is that the judges paper analogy doesn't hold; you aren't shredding because you never had the info in the first place. Should we be logging all HTTP headers for example? The referal ID might be useful in a criminal case.
Another analogy might be my daily activies. Say I was asked by the authorities what bus I caught to town six months ago. Was it the 08:30 or the 8:45 one? I had the information at the time, but never logged it as it has no reasonable use at a later date.
Stupid headline (Score:2, Insightful)
People, read the damn article! But I guess an easy chance to get your post moderated Funny is too hard to give up a lot of you. Too bad there is basically only one joke in this entire thread and it's been told about 200 times now.
Seriously to whoever posted this submit better summaries!