Novell Partners With EFF on Patent Busting 167
Seymour writes "Novell and the EFF have announced that Novell will be contributing to the EFF's Patent Busting Project. Novell will also support the EFF's efforts toward patent reform, including with the WIPO. Could this be Novell trying to get back in the good graces of Linux users? 'Novell's agreement with Microsoft has been a source of contention within open source circles, with one Red Hat executive accusing the company of appeasing Microsoft; others have accused Novell of violating the GPL with the agreement. Either way, signing the deal with Microsoft did a lot to sully Novell in the eyes of many Linux users, and Novell's decision to link up with the EFF on patents may have been made with an eye towards getting some of its street cred back with the OSS community.'"
Doesn't really work like that (Score:5, Insightful)
For me, at least, there aren't any second chances. The great thing about the Linux market is there's plenty of choice. Why choose Novell now?
I won't be.
(Same idea behind not buying Sony ever again.)
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Oh grow up. Novell doesn't give a rats a** if its "in the good graces" of Linux users. If MS gets serious about pursuing litigation (however unlikely), Novell is sitting on a plump little target -- Suse. MS (or anyone else who has a bone to pick with FOSS) won't go after end users -- it'll go after the cash cow that is Novell.
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Re:Doesn't really work like that (Score:5, Insightful)
I think in this case it would be exactly the same. Do unto Novell what you'd expect happen to your own company, with the recent adoption of Linux to Dell and the lacking of what is and what is to come i.e "Windows Vista" this is just yet another part of this constant struggle of playing the right tricks to make the most easy cash possible.
This whole coupon deal was just that, lets see, umm
So what would you expect? Novel is like F**k what did we do? a) We pissed off a pile of people / businesses that use our product (or did) b) had a pile of our customers purchase something they didn't need c) worked directly with Satan himself, then bastard ran off with our soul and we look like a pile of D**ks to everybody now so lets go into repair mode PR style and see what we can do about cleaning up the mess.
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IT is so much like politics these days, you know, if we get this company to use our technology everybody else will so how do we win over the masses? A good answer that question is that they partner to a particular brand and tap into their marketplace. I think Novell is the unique company that was blind to its establishments of products and services and didn't consider that
Microsoft CAN'T sue Novell (Score:5, Interesting)
No. Suse can't be a target for the simple reason that Novell and MS have both signed a mutual agreement no to sue (in addition to agree to collaborate for interoperation).
In fact, that's where the whole story began. Microsoft hoped (and somewhat managed it) that people think that this should mean is that Novell could get sued because of Linux patent infringement and thus signed a deal with MS. Whereas in fact, the net cash flow was massively in favor of Novell (thus you can imply that, maybe, MS was affraid of Novell, somewhat. Novell has indeed a lot of rights inherited from the original Unix).
And that's where the problem currently lies. Novell has earned $wad_of_cash with this procedure. But now Microsoft is starting to go after the rest of the OSS community. Novell knows that all comunity members must work together to protect their work. But Novell can't retaliate, because there's quite a few thing they promised in their agreement with Microsoft, and that $wad_of_cash is nice enough. They don't want to breach the contract and loose their precious.
Helping the EFF fighting is an indirect way that enables them to do thing some of which may be against their agreement with MS.
Just like before, MS used SCO as a proxy to try to sue Linux shops.
If MS threatens to sue over patents, Novell can't counter sue them, but they can help the EFF to either : bust those special patents OR destroy the whole bogus patent system through reforms.
Re:Microsoft CAN'T sue Novell (Score:4, Insightful)
The third party will not be developing any software so there is no chance of a counter infringement claim.
The third party will not be a signatory to any contracts and agreements MS signed with Sun, Novell or anybody else.
See how that works. The MS executives are sleazy dirtbags but they are not stupid.
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This is untrue; take a look at the openSUSE.org FAQ [opensuse.org].
The patent coverage does not give Novell any immunity from being sued for patent violations. In summary:
* Novell has no licence for Microsoft patents.
* Novell can't use Microsoft patents (and vice versa)
* Novell can sue Microsoft for Novell patents in Microsoft p
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Incorrect. Novell and Microsoft agreed not to sue each other customers. They can still sue each other. See this:
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http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070518
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As I said, Im not a lawyer - so any lawyers may feel free to pick holes in this statement based on their own knowledge.
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Anyway this is not about distribution, but about whether they "convey, or propagate by procuring conveyance of" a covered work, which Eben Moglen is confident they will. How about actually reading the link?
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Absolutely no second chances? So, I suppose you're not buying Nintendo, either? Shame, that.
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Eh? What did Nintendo do that was as bad as Sony's CDs?
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It makes your eyes bleed whilst you play, then as a double insult you get the tune in your head.
Its torture.
At least Sony rooted your computer, Nintendo manage to root your brainstem.
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Price fixing on a massive scale and the original inventors of Regional Lockout(TM)?
Not to mention stifling innovation by draconian licensing restrictions. In some cases Nintendo would approve a project, allow a company to spend money and time on it, then pull out at the last minute. The most egregious of these was when a certain company worked with Nintendo on a new color portable game system that would play NES games as well as gameboy games. After the company developed the technology and made a few mi
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That's one I don't quite get. Is there something unusual about playing old games on old consoles? What's it got to do with exclusivity? Nintendo had the Zelda
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You're joking, right? You honestly don't know about Nintendo's notorious business practices [geekcomix.com] and censorship [filibustercartoons.com] back in the day?
(Why those URLs both happen to refer to cartoons or comics I have no idea -- the material they link to is factual.)
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Re:Doesn't really work like that (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it is based on that expectation that their actions were pursued, and if you do not reward companies which make these 'selfless' maneuvers on behalf of open source, then none will. It's the same as eeking linux loaded comps out of Dell, in regard to which numerous persons have commented on the necessity of now purchasing these comps to validate the move.
Now, I've never used SuSE, and don't really plan to, and I'm not saying everyone should now jump ship to Novell in servile gratitude. But I do think it's fair for us to tender some rescinding of animosity in regard to Novell's previous patent deal--for those persons who were upset about it--or elsewise indicate appreciation of their latest move.
Why shouldn't we be nice to people who are nice to us?
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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GPL 3.0 Did Work Like That. (Score:2)
The great thing about the Linux market is there's plenty of choice. Why choose Novell now?
Because you can. GPL 3.0 has taken the worst thorns out of the Novel M$ pact. A portion of the money might go to M$, but that's much less that an all M$ "solution" would bring and that's the market Suse is supposed to serve. If you work for a big dumb company, Novel might be right for you. If you de-M$ed yourself five years ago, you don't need them.
GPL 3.0 has left Novell no choice but to behave. Sooner or l
Same Old Story - With a Different Beat (Score:5, Insightful)
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Beat the Deal, Wife was much smarter. (Score:2)
Husband sleeps with his secretary.
Secretary? M$ has always been a whore, dishonest, drugged and only interested in your money.
Wife finds out.
Wife finds out and crafts GPL 3, which transfers all the benefits of husband's infidelity without any drawbacks. She get's all the O time from every M$ whore without contracting the VD M$ is famous for. M$ has become her bitch, little more than a disposable sex toy. There are as many coppies as she likes and no one but Pimp Daddy Bill Gates has lost.
Patent Busting eh (Score:4, Funny)
Too late! Once you go Slack, you never go back! (Score:2, Funny)
Oblig (Score:4, Funny)
Useless against Microsoft? (Score:2)
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Can't you let go of that anger?
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Sure, reverse engineering MS object code is harder than cut/copy/paste source code made available direct from Microsoft. I don't think Novell would do that, but obviously some people think they might.
But it doesn't change the ability of anyone inserting patented code into stuff they shouldn't. And thus, Microsoft is a threat everyone. Novell offering to support the EFF isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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No, not really. Let's say I submitted a patch some program. There is a 0% chance of any MS copyrighted work being in that code because I have never seen MS code.
>Sure, reverse engineering MS object code is harder than cut/copy/paste source code made available direct from Microsoft. I don't think Novell would do that, but obviously some people think they might.
Why wouldn't they do that? It's a corporation, if MS gave it 500 million dollars to do that then they
All this shows (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:All this shows (Score:5, Insightful)
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MS is a sleazy, unethical company run by people who are borderline sociopaths. There are lots of reasons not to support the corporation by buying it's products. When you buy MS products you are supporting them and their act
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You have a very balanced view of facts!
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Once again, when making your decision you do not any ethics or principles or morals enter into your decision making process. You only judge the product. You clearly think ethics, morals, and principles have no role to play when you are shopping for your products and services.
Most people are like you.
Some people are not. Those people let their ethical judgement and moral upbringing play a role in their choices as a custom
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No it hasn't occurred to me. I would never compromise my ethics just because a customer wanted something. They don't run my life, I do. I have been asked for all kinds of illegal and unethical things by customers including "hack my competitors network" and "write me something that will zombie that machine" and even "fin
I don't recommend unethical buissineses (Score:2)
That is not a religion, it is professionalism. I will not compromise my profesionalism for the sake of following the flock.
If a client insists on using something after I have given my expert opinion, that is fine, but that is why I am an expert in the field, I am aware of the reputations of the different companies and can recommend with confidence the ones that will provide you with a good service or the ones that may be out to screw you.
MS IMHO hav
It is not what was said. (Score:2)
If that hurts you it is your fault, not ours. I and others are stating a matter of fact based on what you are saying.
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Because sticking to principles is what has built both the GNU and BSD movements. You fail to see that it is that adherence to priciples which has given you the exact choices which you have.
Without people sticking to principles, you simply wouldn't be able to choose between Windows, Linux and BSD.
Since you are using BSD and Linux, and complaining about the people who built the software, I'd also like to ask exact
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And sorry if you took my words as "venom"; they weren't intended as such. You asked a question; I was trying to educate you on the matter of "why". Perhaps I'm being foolish in the attempt, but I'll give anyone who asks at least one response (and ev
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I don't do bussiness with unethcial companies. (Score:2)
It is a matter of principles.
I have some, do you have any?
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Free Software is over hyar, Microsoft is over thyar. The only acceptable compromise is for Microsoft to surrender; we have nothing to gain by moving towards them.
Only the Sith think in Absolutes
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Which, ironically, is itself an absolute statement. (I.e. Anyone who think in absolutes must be a Sith.)
Did you ever consider (Score:2)
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If you disagree, please feel free to rip Samba out of your current Linux distribution.
The proof of the pudding... (Score:5, Insightful)
This doesn't mean that I'm willing to use or recommend Novell software. That appears wantonly reckless. Perhaps *AFTER* I seen the agreement with MS, and decide whether the redacted parts might be larger than a couple of words, and get some reactions from independant lawyers. Perhaps after that I'll be more willing to trust them. Maybe. And maybe just the opposite. The weasel words so far used in public commentaries don't inspire any confidence at all. They're rather like the MS pledge that "We don't currently have any plans to sue...". They could change their mind at any minute, and they aren't obligating themselves to give any warning. And there could exist plans right now that this spokes-thing just doesn't know about, possibly on purpose. Novell seems to aim more towards incoherence than ambiguity, but the effect is the same. The promises appear worthless, and certainly not legally binding. (And if a corporation is carefully insuring that its public statements aren't legally binding, what does that imply about its trustworthiness?)
Well, possibly these were off-the-cuff remarks, and not carefully thought out. Possibly. But they have explicitly refrained from making any carefully thought out statements that address the topic...unless they were so vague as to be worthless. (Or unless they were statements about how someone else would behave, which they obviously can't be responsible for.)
We'll see what gets published about the MS-Novell deal, and we'll see how this quest for "patent reform" works out. Perhaps after those resolve we'll decide that Novell was merely clumsy about what they did and were misunderstood. Possibly. Until then, however... well, Safety First. And that means avoiding Novell, as well as MS.
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"Patent reform" is a quite ambiguous phrase, which could be used to describe ANY change in the patent laws. Not all changes would make things better. Just as an example, extending the term of patents to 70 years could be described as patent reform, though I don't think many here would consider that a fair way to use the term. So when Novell is proposing to "help the EFF with patent reform" we don't really have a clue as to what they are proposing. They could be describing a lobbying
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They should be in our good graces... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now with this, it seems like two things are true.
1.) Novell costs Microsoft money.
2.) Novell actively works against Microsoft.
Awesome
Re:They should be in our good graces... (Score:4, Interesting)
And Judas got a pocketful of coins for only a kiss.
What did Microsoft get? Microsoft got _validation_ from one of the premier Linux distributors for what it considers pocket change.
I've got a question for John Dragoon: How do those pieces of silver feel now?
--
BMO
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Re:They should be in our good graces... (Score:4, Insightful)
Novell wanted to have their cake and eat it, and despite their assertion that they "couldn't have made it clearer that they didn't agree to any [such] nonsense", if they knew how the deal would likely be perceived in practice, such a statement is likely to be meaningless or just legal ass-covering.
Re:They should be in our good graces... (Score:5, Insightful)
> if they knew how the deal would likely be perceived in practice, such a statement is likely to be meaningless or just legal ass-covering.
The only people who perceive it that way are some Microsoft speakers and a few clueless people in the Linux community. I haven't seen any indication anywhere else to suggest otherwise.
The reason 99% of the people (and, I know this from direct experience) in the Linux community are annoyed about this is because there's some (as usual) very vocal poisonous people [google.com] in the community who spute out countless of erroneous negative headlines without even knowing what's going on [opensuse.org]. Others in the community see these headlines, think the headlines alone are evidence, and don't even consider the matter. I mean, the amount of people I've seen who think that Novell have some immunity from Microsoft (completely false), or the amount of people I've seen who think that countless of people have left Novell because of this (when only two have permanently left), or the amount of people who think that Novell is losing money from this (when they're getting a few hundred million), or the amount of people who have no clue about Novell's hundreds of Linux engineers in the open source community (KDE, GNOME, Linux kernel, OpenOffice.org, etc), is always astounding.
It's an unfortunate simple fact: people like fighting for a cause when the ideal (freedom) is good, even when there's no threat to it or they're ignorant of who the enemy is.
This headline is nothing new from Novell (I mean, they're an OIN founding member), but people will still interpret it in a silly way.
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JUST WHY DO NOVELL CUSTOMERS NEED PROTECTING FROM "MICROSOFT IP" BY THIS COVENANT NOT TO SUE?
Eh?
Nobody has explained that. John Dragoon has danced around it and totally ignored the issue. Miguel DeIcaza in his blog said that Sun "signed a similar agreement so they could distribute Gnome." I don
Re:They should be in our good graces... (Score:4, Insightful)
This has been answered countless times. Personally, I think Andreas Jaeger said it best [blogspot.com]: Let me state clearly: We do not think that Novell's Linux distributions violate valid patents - but if they do, we do change the code to avoid or work around the patent. Meanwhile we have some means in place to protect customers and developers better. So, it's some kind of important insurance.
We did not expect that Microsoft would sue individuals. But who would have known a couple of years ago that the record industry is going after individuals downloading or copying music and driving them in bankruptcy. Therefore the agreements consider a promise not to sue.
The meaning is clear: customers want the extra assurance. When you've got billions of dollars, you cannot avoid so many risks, you become a big target. This is why Microsoft customers asked for the protection from Novell as well, of not being sued.
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Oh gawd, this is an ISSUE? Are you SERIOUS? This does not even pass the laugh test!
"When you've got billions of dollars, you cannot avoid so many risks, you become a big target. "
And Google is the biggest Linux user out there. Microsoft has not sued Google for the $BIGPAYOFF. Neither does anyone believe that Microsoft will even attempt it.
"We do not think that Novell's Linux distributions violate valid paten
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You can laugh it off but it's not addressing the very serious fact that customers have asked for it.
> And Google is the biggest Linux user out there. Microsoft has not sued Google for the $BIGPAYOFF. Neither does anyone believe that Microsoft will even attempt it.
Pretty bad argument. Just because Google might not be concerned, this is not to say that many other customers aren't (which they are). Microsoft would
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Why not? You said that Microsoft would sue end users were it not for this agreement. Well, There You Go, the World's Biggest Linux User.
"We can argue all day on how different people perceive it, or what the "spirit" of some agreement is etc etc, and yet the only things that really stand are the facts"
I'm going to slow down the text so it will be clear to you:
T-H-E F-A-C-T-S D-O N-O-T M-A-T-T-E-R. I-N A W-A-R O-F W-O-R-D-S,
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Novell have made it explicitly clear, and since they have, the only thing it possibly does is make Microsoft look silly (as they regularly do).
As I already said (the above is merely an expanded version of your original comment), I'm not convinced that Novell really believed that their agreement would merely "make Microsoft look silly".
Although you clearly don't want to admit it, this deal has been very beneficial for Novell
How the hell do you assume that I "clearly don't want to admit it"?
Where on earth do I imply that the deal *wasn't* beneficial for Novell? I said nothing of the sort; on the contrary, I would expect it to be beneficial for them in the short term unless there is a serious backlash.
Elsewhere, you accuse others of
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Bullshit. Microsoft has the bigger bullhorn and the PR budget that just dwarfs Novell's entire market cap.
Just by merely signing the agreement, which is secret, allows Microsoft to say whatever the hell it wants, and Novell can do *fuck-all* about it. I have _zero_ sympathy for Novell, because they should have known better. And all of John Dragoon's (VP of PR) statements that this was
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But that was _one_ statement on _one_ day while they've been threatening world+dog that those who use Linux are infringing on Microsoft IP and "y'all better sign agreements with us like Novell if ya know what's good for ya"
It doesn't matter what Microsoft said in an obscure press release that didn't get _any_ reprinting in any of the rags. What counts is what they've been shouting from the rooftops.
"Doesn'
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Fuck the FAQ. It doesn't answer the questions I posed. Andreas Jaeger's answer really is a non-answer.
Why did Sun have to give Microsoft money to distribute Gnome as per Miguel's assertion?
Why did Novell enter a similar agreement if Linux doesn't infringe on any valid patents? If there was no threat, why acknowledge Microsoft's assertions about patents?
My gawd. We've had a lawsuit going on for 4 years with one company claiming that Linux infringes on its precious
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I think I'll leave Novell/SUSE to actually continue being one of the greatest contributors to free and open source software, ever, for hiring hundreds of engineers to work on Linux. Developers to work and ensure that KDE, GNOME, the Linux kernel, OpenOffice.org, X.org/XGL/Compiz are constantly improving.
While secretly inserting known patented code so that their business partners can sue the world later on. The probably have some secret agreement that they can have a part of the profits of that campaign too.
Mythbusters... (Score:5, Funny)
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There is a show like that on the Canadian Discovery Channel called Patent Bending [wikipedia.org]. They take patents for silly mechanical things and try to build them. Turns out that these kinds of patents aren't of much better quality than software patents.
KOL novell (Score:5, Interesting)
An exploiter is you.
Novell may have gained many meat from this deal, but the loss of moxiousness is overwhelming. Until Novell clicks on the unequip link to the MScontract(tm) in their inventory, they will continue to suffer a permanent drain to their Moxie. No amount of practicing the accordian will ever be able to put this right.
How curious (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How curious (Score:4, Interesting)
"Novell has also created or is among the top sponsors of projects such as the Linux Kernel, GCC, OpenOffice.org, KDE, GNOME, Tomboy, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, (K)NetworkManager, Kickoff, Evolution, XEN, Xgl, and Compiz etc. Are you refusing to use any of those as well? Since they all have substantial amounts of Novell code."
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Nearly every knee-jerk hothead I've seen post about how they are going to boycott Novell from now on because they entered an agreement with Microsoft has also said something to the effect that they weren't buying Novell products anyway.
If this holds true, then the 'backlash' of OSS zealots against Novell will not make much real difference.
If the 'backlash' actually d
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Why i use OpenSuSE (Score:3, Insightful)
I have used Ubuntu, RHEL, CentOS, Gentoo, Slackware, and Fedora both in the past and quite recently, and at this time OpenSuSE remains the most usable Linux system available, for a variety of reasons, but in particular the Yast system. Yast fills in a lot of the gaps in Linux system and hardware management. Some of the Yast functions are not presently available anywhere else, and if you decide to use Gnome this is even more important because Yast fills in many of the massive holes in Gnome for these areas. And I don't mean just basic stuff, but more advanced things, like a GUI for inserting PCI IDs into a driver if your card doesn't match perfectly or at all, or a well made Xorg configuration panel, or very well designed network card configuration. It also has GUI configuration for almost every common network service daemon, such as ldap, apache, NIS, kerberos, bind, nfs, sendmail, samba and so on. Pehaps the single most important useful aspect of yast is that all of these functions can be completed over SSH, in a console, or without Xorg at all, because there are totally identical yast systems for both GUI and ncurses, this alone makes yast fairly unique.
OpenSuSE also has one of the best installers I have ever seen, and it beats just about everything. By everything I mean Windows XP, Windows Vista, OS X, and without a doubt every other Linux dist installer out there. Why you ask? Some very important reasons include its nearly perfect package selection, intelligent partitioning (that can create LVM and encrypted volumes for you), hardware preconfiguration, system cloning, and lots of other useful things that actually work. It also gave me a choice between Gnome and KDE within one disc, which gained it lots of points. It also has very nice system recovery that will check all essential files and replace them if you think something is broken. It will also repair grub easily and quickly, something you would otherwise need a livecd for anyway, that novice users could not do otherwise.
So you can see after that long rant, that there are things in SuSE that are custom and unique to it, many of them not present anywhere else. None of these things are proprietary and could be done by others, even Yast could be used by others as it was released as GPL by Novell.
So, I will not just abandon one of the best Linux systems available, nor will I immediately blacklist Novell for what is basically speculation at this point. Novell positioned the company as being highly dependent on Linux, Novell has more reason to stand by the community than it has to assist Microsoft, even with their agreement. And every day it seems Novell is looking more like the goodguy, particularly if they knew what would happen with those coupons, and now this EFF news makes me think they know more and have more planned than previously thought.
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However, even as slick as SUSE is, it had a major drawback for me: extensive software repositories. The Packman / Guru repo's simply don't cut it compared to the vast library of software available for Ubuntu. So I always wanted to switch, and made an attempt with Edgy
Why i *don't* use OpenSuSE (Score:2)
After a long time of using almost exclusively SuSE (ever since version 1.x, which as I remember was basically a repackaged Slackware) it was yast of version 10.1 that drove me away most of all. Not so much the functionality which I thought was at least adequate. But the speed! It now took ~10min to start up the software selection. WTF? And online updates? Trying to configure online updates sent me into an endless loop of registering online and yast not recognizing that I
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I'm not judging anything here, and think your priorities are perfectly valid (although I personally disagree).
I just wanted to point this out as a perfect example of a schism in the open-source community: those who walk down a path because it is technically best (say, the Torvalds camp), and those who avoid that path because it is philosophically tainted (say, the Stallman camp).
I find thi
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You know why Microsoft chosen Novell (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course it is all speculation and don't change a bit - Novell have to clean up their higher management and drop those agreements with Microsoft to get it right back on track - but it is kinda little bit sad that stupid decisions are made just because some people are so easily manipulated trough money.
Really hard to guess intentions (Score:2)
[*] - http://techp.org/p/1 [techp.org]
Meh. (Score:2)
My father used that as a cautionary metaphor when it came to hanging out with bad company, and I think it pretty much sums up what happens whenever anyone gets into bed with Microsoft.
Thing is, that implies being a victim. Novell's a victim, all right, but I'd say it's a situation more of their own making. Years ago, with NetWare, they were the only game in town. In these days, they're struggling for relevancy, and it appears they're willing
Right hand - Left hand (Score:2)
Good graces? (Score:2)
Please don't speak for me as a Linux user, nor as a system integrator. Novell didn't leave my good graces. In fact, that they could manage to grab a huge chunk of change (it was what, several hundred million?) from Microsoft only increased my fondness for the most refined Linux distribution out there.
Linux is a great operating system. The fact that Novell was able to succeed in scamming Microsoft out of money AND remain in the bounds
install Debian and break free from corporations (Score:2)
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But Novell has already been a recognized company. I guess you missed the entire history of Novell and the urban legends of Novell servers being walled up like so many Fortunados, still running, but encased by wallboard (Alas, I have not run into any with bottles of Amontillado).
Novell is already famous. They didn't need Microsoft's blessing.
--
BMO
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