Microsoft, Best Buy Face Racketeering Suit 153
15 judges of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals have unanimously reversed dismissal of a RICO class action suit against Microsoft and Best Buy, which claims the companies engaged in fraud in promoting Microsoft's MSN online service. (RICO is a statute originally intended to help prosecutors go after organized crime.) Quoting: "The case started after James Odom bought a PC-based laptop at a Contra Costa County Best Buy store. Data about the purchase was sent to Microsoft as part of a joint marketing agreement between the companies. Microsoft then signed Mr. Odom up for its MSN Internet service and, after a free trial period, began billing him for it." Howard Bashman's How Appealing blog has more details on the reversal, including a paraphrase from one of the appellate judges that "all blame rests with the U.S. Supreme Court for allowing the 'outlandish' result that a claim such as this can be pursued under RICO."
Good (Score:5, Insightful)
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Too bad Washington is just a small department inside Microsoft.
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
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How does that actually work as far as your credit card contract, I wonder? if I am the only one authorized to make a purchase with my card, how can BestBuy make a purchase for me?
Re:Good (Score:5, Informative)
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The bank then assumes that since the card was from a large corporation you must have been the one who screwed up.
I had this happen to a friend when the PC came with an AOL install CD but it wasn't even installed on his system.
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helvetical
about how taking the computer out the front door is
acceptance of a contract allowing the charging of
your credit card by the third party.
Here is one for you... There is some collections
agency after some woman. My work number is in their
database as the number for this person. So, every
couple days, I get a call, rolled over from my work
account to my personal cell phone. They say something
like
"this call i
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By reading this post, you agree to pay me one million dollars.
Such a statement on a call is just as much (or as little) enforceable as that. It's a trick for the gullible, it carries no real weight.
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No Great Surprise (Score:2)
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He's right. We should just slowly torture these guys instead...
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Re:Good (Score:4, Informative)
Rape has been alleged, and given the other things carried out it doesn't seem too far fetched. Sodomy and torture (including torturing to death) is documented.
Whilst being sodomized or hung from your wrists (behind your back - strappado) until dead almost certainly do qualify as "humiliating things", I don't think many people would regard them as "_just_
Three, guess you don't like muslim/arab punishments?
Not really, although I note that sharia law seems to typically specify a trial first...
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
If you do think it's an appropriate punishment, then you need to change the law so that judges can include it in a sentence, otherwise it's a basic human rights violation
Figures... (Score:5, Informative)
In fairness, you kinda expect this from the seedier side of the web.
You don't expect it from Best Buy and the largest software company on the planet.
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Riiiiiiiight...
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Re:Figures... (Score:5, Informative)
Check out the Big List.
Re:Figures... (Score:4, Insightful)
"Sign up for this for free, (Score:2)
the credit card is for age verification only."
Yeap, that's the hook, the cc is for verification only. But only for the three free days. Read such free offers and they'll say if you don't cancel at the end of the 3 days then they'll bill your cc. However many won't cancel. What some may not know though is that the cc holder can dispute the charges. And some merchant bankers or credit card verifiers will drop a client who has too many chargebacks.
FalconRe:Figures... (Score:5, Informative)
That's when you call your credit card company and do a chargeback. Of course, porn sites know this is an awkward thing for some credit card customers to do.
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Re:Figures... (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess you've never heard of the "Microsoft Tax". You know, the one where the manufacturer must charge you for a copy of Windows whether you want it or not. Otherwise M$FT will cut off the manufacturer from being able to sell Windows at all.
Outlandish result (Score:2)
Howard Bashman's How Appealing blog has more details on the reversal, including a paraphrase from one of the appellate judges that "all blame rests with the U.S. Supreme Court for allowing the 'outlandish' result that a claim such as this can be pursued under RICO."
The blog calls it a "concurring opinion", but it sounds like a dissenting opinion.
Since Bashman is talking about that subset of those 15 judges that originally dismissed the case, maybe it's a concurring opinion from the original hearing, rather than from the current reversal?
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Don't forget the Irish and other not as white white people.
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Re:Outlandish result (Score:4, Informative)
No it doesn't. The quote from him is very clear that he thinks that following Supreme Court precedents requires him to reach the conclusion that the claim can be pursued under RICO. So that's his ruling; the claim can be pursued under RICO, concurring with the others. He and one other judge just wanted to make it absolutely clear that they think this is fucked up. They're allowed to do that.
Re:Outlandish result (Score:4, Interesting)
were it some other court... (Score:4, Informative)
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Insurance... (Score:1, Offtopic)
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[ Reply to This ]
Yikes. Nope.
this says alot about the companies involved (Score:3, Interesting)
When you have to resort to dishonest tactics as stealing, you don't have much time left.
I went into a best buy just yesterday and noted the prices for computer related products was a good bit higher than Micro Center and that their DVD movies are also higher priced than I can find elsewhere locally.
Best buy isn't a best buy anymore and Microsoft, long known to be aggressive marketing with stepping over the legal and moral fence in a calculated manner should never steal in such a manner as this article indicates... unless they really are hurting. So they did it in at least two different ways.....but where else are they proping themselves up in a financial paperwork appearance?
Ever wonder what assets vs. debt would be if MS had to liquidate? A million on paper can convert to a penny in liquidated into hard cash. Oh but you have stock holders...... and that is the real point.
Track records creating a perfect storm? (Score:1)
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I'm no fan of the Microsloth, but must we stoop to bullshit?
RICO was created to cover violent acts (Score:2, Informative)
RICO was created to combat Organized Crime (Score:5, Insightful)
RICO actually stands for:
Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act
according to Wikipedia Racketeering is:
(no, I'm not making that up)
Sound like any large software company we might all be familiar with?
I never thought of Bill Gates as just a non-violent, really smart version of Tony Soprano.. but damned if it doesn't fit.
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Haha, 0wned, microsoft...
actually that text sounds like it was word-for-word designed to apply to microsoft's security practises
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It's OS has free updates.
Office has free updates.
Their powertoys are free, and that remedies a large number of complaints about their software.
You pay your employees to write better code that supports IE7 and the actual HTML standard.
I'm sorry, I just don't seem to see where they are "making money by selling a solution to a problem that [they] created (or that [they] intentionally [allow] to continue to exist),"...
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Slashdot signed me up without my knowledge (Score:5, Funny)
Sign-ups (Score:3, Interesting)
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You're right, a single guy getting charged for a month of MSN isn't going to raise the stock price of Microsoft or Best buy. This is a class action lawsuit which means there are many guys (and gals) who got charged for a serv
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This is definitely true, Revelations inside (Score:5, Informative)
First, they expected us to sign up approximately 50-75% of all PC purchases with MSN accounts. My store trended about 15-20%... So our management took some advice they heard on a higher level... It's free, it comes with the PC. We were able to boost our numbers to about 50% attachment by not explaining what was happening during the process. We didn't explain it was a free trial, we didn't explain they had to cancel, we helped speed them through the process and I even witnessed some people using the touchpad for the customers to accept the agreements.
This was an INCREDIBLY dirty practice and why have such animosity towards Best Buy.
The last time I forced customers to setup with this was a memorable occasion. A semi-intelligent customer realizes I had just set him up with something that he did not want. I confused him by rushing him through the process, what I was shown and instructed to do. After the transaction was over, he saw the agreement on the receipt and was furious. He requested a manager, which I went and got. As I explained the situation to the manager, they were like 'oh crap' and then told me what I'm about to do I have to do infront of the customer but no this is just a front for the customer. The manager gets to the GeekSquad area, the customer explains the situation, the manager begins to apologize and blame the entire thing on me and not being experience, ignorant, etc. So basically the customer thought I was an idiot and I tried to screw him over. So the company saved face on my expense. After the customer left, the manager apologized again for what he had to do, but it couldn't be revealed this was actually what we were supposed to do. From that point forward, I never pressured anybody into any contracts and management did not like that. However, they let it slide because I would explain what had happened before and my sales were so strong on everything else, they couldn't really fault me. I received the store MVP award for approximately 2 years straight (every month, every quarter).
So yea, fook best buy and their dirty as practices. It's never corporate, but the managers that don't meant their goals will likely be fired within a few months. So stores do everything they can to keep their management employed. Fooked up system right? Oh and did I tell you that the stores compete against each other on goals, so half of the company is always in the dog house. Half of the management is always on alert that they could be fired or replaced shortly. They pull out all the tricks to stay in the top half.
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See? It's easy to make up some story, post it anonymously and pretend it's true.
Re:This is definitely true, Revelations inside (Score:5, Funny)
You should have just installed FreeBSD. Free software AND the devil's included.
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The problem is that Best Buy has managed to successfully summon the devil on multiple occasions beforehand, giving credence to parent post.
Re:This is definitely true, Revelations inside (Score:5, Informative)
They tried to do this exact thing with AOL. They also tried to make my girlfriend pay to get service pack 2 installed, and pay to get an antivirus and firewall installed.
So she declined. And they told her they were getting her computer out of the back, and had us wait by the geek squad area. Checking her reciept, she's got the "Geek Squad Service Pack 2 & Antivirus Package Install" on it.
So she asked where her computer was. They told her they couldn't interrupt the installation.
So we had to DEMAND to see a manager, and we basically had to tell them they could either get us a new untouched computer out of the back, finish the install for free, or refund her money.
After losing a half hour of our life arguing with the assholes, we finally got our way.
We've had similar experiences trying to get her computer serviced at 3 seperate stores in 3 seperate cities.
Avoid Best Buy like the plague.
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Well, there's your problem right there.
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They had a *really* good deal. Cheaper than anywhere else we could find. One of those specials to clear old models out of the store.
It seemed like an obvious choice to us given the price -- but we didn't realize what we were in for.
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And probably because they discounted below the rates they could normally afford because they figured they'd make it up by screwing^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H offering you the 'services' you mentioned anyway.
I haven't yet found a laptop where 'you get what you pay for' isn't true.
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When I asked where the magazine
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And "fook" you for going along with them (but thanks for speaking up).
Re:This is definitely true, Revelations inside (Score:5, Informative)
The New Yorker, 8 March 1930, p. 12.
THE TALK OF THE TOWN
There is no telling about ladies when they are disturbed, or ruffled. One of the things ladies demand, when something goes wrong with their shopping, is that the store discharge the employee whose fault it was. A store uptown has learned how very mollifying it is to ladies to witness a dismissal, and they have assigned one of their employees to be the goat in all cases. It is his job to be discharged. Whenever an aggrieved patron of the store demands the scalp of an employee, this young man is summoned, the blame is at once traced to his negligence, he is given a severe talking to and told to get his hat and leave. Sometimes he is fired as many as twenty times in a week, always to the immense relief of the customer and never with any particular injury to himself. In fact, he rather likes it -- gives him time to go across to Schrafft's for a soda.
Leewin B. Williams, ed., *Encyclopedia of Wit, Humor, and Wisdom*. New York & Nashville: Abingdon-Cokesbury Press, 1949, p. 96.
No. 666. A customer of a big New York department store complained of bad service. The manager called an employee, blamed him for the negligence, and fired him in the customer's presence. A few weeks later the same customer again had cause for complaint and again the same employee was called and fired for his carelessness. Probably you've guessed it. The store employed and "O.F.M." or "Official Fired Man" just to soothe the ruffled feelings of peeved customers. Often sympathetic customers plead with the manager not to dismiss the offending employee. Then the "O.F.M." is recalled and the manager explains to him that only the customer's pleading saved him. It is the "O.F.M.'s" duty to grasp the customer's hand in gratitude while brushing away a stage tear.
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America is all about taking advantage of others. I really don't like this country sometimes, because it's not just corporate America and their flexible morals. It's the entire damn country. Everybody wants to get paid, and they do it by screwing over their fellow American. It's how li
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The parent gave us a good and interesting on-topic read on how the things are run in Best Buy. He admits to have adhered to that policy. He also tells us how bad he felt about it and how wrong it was.
I applaud him for his article.
I'm VERY confused (Score:1)
Appeals court reinstates case.
Reason? Quote: "all blame rests with the U.S. Supreme Court for allowing the 'outlandish' result that a claim such as this CAN be pursued under RICO." (emphasis mine)
Shouldn't that be CAN'T? If not, the sentence would mean that the Supreme Court AGREES that it can be pursued under RICO, so...
Could someone please tell a confused Wabbit Wabbit what he's missing here???
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Nope, he supreme court hasn't touched this case yet. The district court tossed the case out, Odom took it to the appeals court, the appeals court reinstated the case, and bloggers started writing in Latin.
The blame on the Supreme Court is presumably a reference to an earlier decision (on another case) that set a precedent, making it legally feasible to pursue this case under RICO. I haven't yet decoded which previous case they're referring to, though.
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Supreme Court rejects case.
I'm confused too. I read a few articles on this case and not one said anything about the Supreme Court rejecting the case.
' FalconObligatory (Score:5, Funny)
More companies to boycott (Score:1)
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- Everyone on the planet.
Contra Costa County Best Buy (Score:4, Funny)
Silverman has his head up his keister (Score:3, Interesting)
Poor Bybee was sour grapes too.
RICO is a Bad Law (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a quick example. Let's suppose a small conservative town in Texas decides that something like FHM magazine is "obscene" and inappropriate for kids. They pass an ordinance saying so. The next day, the cops come in and close down a local 7-11 for selling FHM, takes 'em to court, and they're found guilty. Southland Corporation decides not to fight on free speech grounds and pays the fine or whatever. They make sure not to sell the magazine in that town anymore. Remember, SCOTUS says obscenity is defined by local community standards, so this is entirely legal.
Then a small town in, say, Oklahoma does the same thing to another 7-11. Ding! RICO kicks in. Suddenly, Southland is engaged in a racketeering pattern of behavior. The fact that the two violations were unintnetional or unrelated doesn't matter. Okay, so what's the big deal? The big deal is that under RICO, the entire assets of the Southland corporation can be seized. And sold. BEFORE TRIAL. WITHOUT ANY RECOURSE. Every 7-11 in America can literally cease operation overnight because two small towns in Bumfuck, Nowhere decided they didn't like a particular magazine. The only other alternative is that 7-11 would have to stop selling the magazine everywhere, because it can't take the risk of having a second violation that would qualify for RICO.
Anyone who thinks the PATRIOT ACT goes too far should really be far more worried about RICO. It can do far greater damage. There are parts of RICO that are probably a good thing; it certainly makes it easier to take down criminal organizations. But the law needs to be changed if we are going to preserve our freedoms.
Mod this up (Score:2)
Another case of lawmakers throwing out the baby with the bathwater, SARBOX comes to mind as well.
Sounds good to me... (Score:1, Insightful)
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B
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MS Violating Data Privacy? (Score:1, Interesting)
Obviously if they didn't have trouble with their people doing this kind of thing, there would be no such course. Apparently there are even "Privacy Officers" where one can do the appropriate whistle blowing, I doubt many people woul
obligatory (Score:2, Funny)
Was Microsoft Aware? (Score:2, Insightful)
It sounds more like Best Buy had an overly agressive internal campaign to refer as many sales as possible to MSN, and did whatever they could to make it happen.
Is Microsoft guilty if it had no knowledge of this? Further, did Microsoft make it easy for people to cancel the service?
If Microsoft played fair when someone asked to cancel,
in my experience.. (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not trying to play this down any, but... (Score:2)
How do you not know that you're missing $20 every month for a year and a half? Seriously, look at your bank statements every now and then.
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While that's fine advice, the wisdom of looking at your statements every once in a while does not absolve the illegal biller of their duty not to illegally bill you.
C//
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They got me with this scam too (Score:2, Informative)
Six months later MSN billed my card. I called MSN and asked what was going on, they told me that I'd signed up through Best Buy. I said "Oh no I didn't". They canceled the membership and refunded my money.
Lawsuits going all the way to the supreme court? Sounds like some lawyers getting richer.
Not the only place where this applies (Score:2)
People can see the Sherman Act as being anticapitalist if they want, but as far as I'm concerned gangsters on the other hand have no place within a principled economic system. If Ballmer is going to insist on continuing to behave like a gangster, then he s
Wiki of The US Court of Appeals (Score:2)
not just MSN (Score:2)
she eventually got them canceled, the money refunded, and fees returned, but it was a nightmare.
it should never have happened.
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Text "RINGTONE" to 35576 (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The time to worry is when ... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I don't believe they even have MSN CDs or at least not that I have ever seen
I've seen AOL, MSN, and even Compuserve disks at Best Buy.
FalconRe: (Score:1)
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Ok, that makes more sense then.