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Cryptome to be Terminated by Verio/NTT 171

Posted by CmdrTaco
from the is-this-the-whole-story dept.
George Maschke writes "Cryptome, a website concerned with encryption, privacy, and government secrecy, has received two weeks' notice from Verio that its service will be terminated for unspecified "violation of [its] Acceptable Use Policy." Cryptome has a history of making publicly available documents and information that governments would rather keep secret. For the notice, and a public response by Cryptome webmaster John Young, see Cryptome Shutdown by Verio/NTT."
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Cryptome to be Terminated by Verio/NTT

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 29, 2007 @11:38AM (#18918929)
    No need to wait for two weeks to shut down a site. Just submit it to slashdot
    and get it shut down in minutes.
    • by eneville (745111) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @11:40AM (#18918945) Homepage

      No need to wait for two weeks to shut down a site. Just submit it to slashdot
      and get it shut down in minutes.
      mirrored: http://www.mirrordot.org/stories/e231a81023b07bf39 9b68b2c295e9736/index.html [mirrordot.org] http://www.mirrordot.org/stories/deb36db488f175511 ebd77b98603b50f/index.html [mirrordot.org]
    • by johnyoung (204516) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @01:09PM (#18919481)
      Right, Cryptome happily chokes on slashdot, but not to worry, mirrors are available as noted below.

      Cryptome and its affiliated sites will continue with another ISP, in the US or elsewhere. Or if necessary, underground, or via means not easily shuttered, or by way of whatever is invented for opposing technologies of information control (credit to Steven Wright, author of The Technologies of Political Control: http://cryptome.org/stoa-atpc.htm [cryptome.org]).
    • by Marcion (876801) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @01:59PM (#18919789) Homepage Journal
      So the British "intelligence" services, the same ones that said Saddam Hussein had huge stockpiles of WMD that could strike the UK in 45 minutes, can get a website turned off it America? The ISP just weasely pulls the plug without negotiation just because some guy with a British accent rings up?

      Come on America, we all used to look up to you as the beacon of freedom, but now your country is being turned into a Tudor monarchy, within a few years there will be no freedom left, will the last one out please turn off the lights when you leave.
      • So our "intelligence" services specifically gave some Libyan a Visa to come to Britain and hopefully be recruited, and he instead set up a terrorist network, what a load of monkeys. Then they tell a US ISP to help cover up the truth that they were actually making Britain less safe. A bunch of public schoolboy hooray henries, sack the lot of them I say, out source it to India.
        • by Sj0 (472011)
          I wonder, if EVERYONE outsourced their spies to India, would any Indians rat on their coworkers/counterspies?
      • by NormalVisual (565491) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @03:46PM (#18920517)
        The ISP just weasely pulls the plug without negotiation just because some guy with a British accent rings up?

        I don't think that's what happened. I suspect what happened was that someone in the US government saw something they didn't like, and sent a National Security Letter or other such silliness to Verio. Verio of course can't legally disclose that, but given that Verio had been always been very forthright with John Young in the past but is being tight-lipped about the situation now, I think it's quite possible that something like this is behind Verio's actions.

        Gotta love living in a nation where the government makes you do their own damn police work against someone else against your will, and then threatens you with jail if you say anything about it.
        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by coaxial (28297)
          The whole use of National Security letters strikes me as if Gonzales was reading The Trial, and said, "Now there's an idea!"
          • The whole use of National Security Letters strikes me as just more confirmation that the executive branch just doesn't care about that "goddamned piece of paper", hasn't for years, and that Congress and the judiciary doesn't have the nads to keep them in line like they should.

            Our government's "national security" efforts are undermining everything the country was supposed to stand for anyway.
          • by coaxial (28297)
            Jesus christ! My smartass comment is maked as "informative." God the mods suck. (Yeah yeah, I know the dumbass "funny" doesn't give you karma claptrap. Who cares! It's like that for a reason. Anyway I've had excellent karma sense the day the scores were replaced with names. Oh Signal 11 [slashdot.org], how I miss your karma whoring ways.)
        • by asninn (1071320)
          Just as an idea, maybe ISPs and other organisations should include a standard "this notice was not sent due to a National Security Letter" disclaimer to every notice they sent where this is actually true; then, if you receive a notice where this line is missing, you could deduce that that particular notice was indeed sent due to them having gotten one.

          Of course they couldn't actually tell you that it's true if you asked them about it, but can the feds force them to lie? It's an interesting question - can yo
      • So the British "intelligence" services, the same ones that said Saddam Hussein had huge stockpiles of WMD that could strike the UK in 45 minutes, can get a website turned off it America? The ISP just weasely pulls the plug without negotiation just because some guy with a British accent rings up?

        First they invent global warming as an issue (Margaret Thatcher, of all people). Then they give us bad intel, embroiling us in an unwinnable quagmire of a war. Now they attempt to close down our only source for rea

  • any good soul? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by eneville (745111) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @11:38AM (#18918931) Homepage
    Is there anyone who would like to put up some bounty for having this hosted in a country with liberal hosting rules, such as Sweden perhaps?
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      He might want to host it where he hosted it so far, simply because he is aware of the legal dos and don'ts of the current setup.
    • Re:any good soul? (Score:5, Informative)

      by rs79 (71822) <hostmaster@open-rsc.org> on Sunday April 29, 2007 @12:09PM (#18919109) Homepage
      Why bother?

      I was able to read all of the pages peviously withdrawn with the exception of one (the Irish injunction) in minutes without going to cryptome. The rest of the site can also be found in the usual places.

      If people are dumb to know about things like this I suspect we sholdn't go out of our way to tell them.

      Here's an excerpt from a document withdrawn in 2001:


      UNDERSTANDING AND HELPING INDIVIDUALS WITH HOMOSEXUAL PROBLEMS

      Copyright 1995

      LDS Social Services

      USE OF THE DOCUMENT

      This training document has been prepared for the exclusive use of LDS Social Services to assist staff, interns, and contract providers in their work with individuals having homosexual problems. Because the document is approved only for "in house" use, it should not be reproduced nor distributed to others outside of LDS Social Services.

      UNDERSTANDING AND HELPING INDIVIDUALS WITH HOMOSEXUAL PROBLEMS

      HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE

      For more than 100 years homosexuality has been a topic of scientific and psychotherapy inquiry and debate. Freud and his contemporaries viewed homosexuality as a deviation or "inversion" of natural psychosexual development, the causes of which being as varied and numerous as the theorists espousing them. According to Freud, the deviation resulted primarily from a distorted parent-child relationship which led the child to reject his or her own gender role and identify with the opposite~sexed parent. This view received considerable empirical support later in this century through studies by Irving Bieber and a number of other researchers (Siegelmm, 1987).


      But! These things hang by a thread. I would posit that people who want them archived should post them to usenet. A lot. In a world where news postings are routinely made into "google ad blogs" there'll be lots of copies on many servers around the world.

      Some people think you can delete things off the Internet. They are fools.

      (Note the invalid copyright notice on the above document. You have to say who it's copyrighted by, not just a date. Of course as an excerpt here for academic purposes it's covered by fair use under US copyright law).

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by iminplaya (723125)
        If people are dumb to know about things like this I suspect we sholdn't go out of our way to tell them.

        Don't be like that. Those are the people who need the most help. They really can't help it. It was part of their conditioning as they grew up. It actually is very difficult to overcome. Believe me, I know. We all need help more than ever now.

        Some people think you can delete things off the Internet.

        We show them otherwise and problem solved. But we must show them, however graphically as necessary and by what
      • wrong. (Score:5, Informative)

        by sethawoolley (1005201) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @12:51PM (#18919361) Homepage
        The Berne Conventions eliminated the need to even post a copyright notice. Copyright automatically falls into the hands of the "creator" the moment it is created.

        if you want to go after somebody with a DMCA notice on something with no notice and no registration, you can easily register the copyright years later, then go after them.
      • I was able to read all of the pages peviously withdrawn with the exception of one (the Irish injunction)

        Does anyone maintain historical archives of Cryptome in more liberal jurisdictions (Sealand, etc.) that have the withdrawn documents in them?

        The problem isn't that the documents will become impossible to access -- there are lots of ways to disseminate something if people really want to read it -- but the problem is the elimination of a "one stop shop" for controversial information. That makes it much hard
      • I would posit that people who want them archived should post them to usenet

        Google is the only company in the world making any kind of serious effort to create a permanent archive of Usenet, and they already don't even archive binary postings. What happens if Google decides it's not in their interests to maintain that data anymore?

        You have to say who it's copyrighted by, not just a date.

        No, you don't. You don't even have to SAY it's copyrighted, as it's automatically assumed to be upon creation. Of course
  • explination (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Dont they have to tell you what violation you commited?
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Now that you mention it, the US actually *was* a democratic country at one point.

      That was quite some time back though.
      • by iminplaya (723125)
        What's that have to do with the price of rice? It's a private contract thing, not a constitutional issue.
      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by kestasjk (933987)
        I bet Cryptome was brought down by special request of George W. Bush himself! The guy is an evil super-villian behind everything.

        Yesterday I couldn't find my goddamned keys anywhere; I put them right there on the side and the next day they were gone..
        Bush won't think twice about shorting your car battery, rusting your bike chain or cutting holes in the bottom your pockets; he's just that evil. My co-workers say I need to stop ranting about Bush and that I should get back to work.. Clearly a violation of
        • by tomhudson (43916)

          My co-workers say I need to stop ranting about Bush and that I should get back to work.. Clearly a violation of the 2nd amendment!

          Unless you're about to "go postal" you should be thinking 1st Amendment, not 2nd.

          More on-topic - maybe they should look into moving to ibiblio.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by daigu (111684)

          Banter aside, I'll make the argument simple for you.

          1. A leader of a country conducting a war of aggression [wikipedia.org] against another has committed a crime against humanity.
          2. George Bush has conducted a war of aggression against another country.
          C. George Bush has committed a crime against humanity.

          We are looking at 600,000 dead [mit.edu] between 2002-2006 as the result. Not to mention the thousands of maimed and dead U.S. soldiers. If the 600,000 people that died were people that lived in the U.S., would you be talking

      • Hmm, that must have been some time before the civil war. The war increased the power of Washington and nullified the power of most states - especially southern ones. Democracy in the US got watered down accordingly, since there are no more proper 'checks and balances'.
  • text of the page (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    can be found here... [mirrordot.org]

    I would have posted it, but it tripped the lameness filter...

  • by nurb432 (527695) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @12:13PM (#18919125) Homepage Journal
    Sites like this could simply be 'blacklisted' if no ISP wil pick them up due fears of prosecution.

    Good way to restrict 'evil' information dissemination to the masses.

    What is next, 'hate' sites being cut loose? Or 'independent freedom talk' being removed from the digital landscape?
    • by rhizome (115711)
      Sites like this could simply be 'blacklisted' if no ISP wil pick them up due fears of prosecution.

      The problem here is not the ISP but with the laws that cause those fears. The blacklisting is done with laws, not AUPs.

      Spammers being okay with Verio/NTT, what we see here is an illustration of the kinds of behavior the relevant laws were meant to circumscribe. It's harder to make a legal and business case for a political speech site than it is to send people fake ads.
    • by FLEB (312391)
      If the information is sufficiently worthy of being disseminated, there are plenty of unstoppable ways to get it out-- P2P, email lists, USENET, even anonymous comment spamming.
    • by jp10558 (748604)
      Well, yes, for the uninitiated. For the people who take about a day to learn about these issues, AnoNet, Freenet, I2P, and TOR all provide methods for distribution significantly more difficult to take down than a website.
  • mirrors (Score:5, Informative)

    by e**(i pi)-1 (462311) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @12:15PM (#18919133) Homepage Journal
    cryptome has several mirrors. Here is one:
    http://cryptome.quintessenz.org/mirror/cryptome-sh ut.htm [quintessenz.org]
  • by merc (115854) <slashdot@upt.org> on Sunday April 29, 2007 @12:15PM (#18919137) Homepage
    Of course, it's VERIO's network, they're free to have whomever they like as customers. I just find it dubious that they're TOS'ing Young for abuse or violations of their AUP when they simultaneously decide to host spamming scum:

    http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=ver io.net [spamhaus.org]
    • Er, I see four listings there. While not anything to be proud of (there shouldn't be any), I imagine most other large hosting companies have at least that number.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Kijori (897770)

      Of course, it's VERIO's network, they're free to have whomever they like as customers. I just find it dubious that they're TOS'ing Young for abuse or violations of their AUP when they simultaneously decide to host spamming scum:

      http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings.lasso?isp=ver io.net [spamhaus.org]

      I think they might be, actually - in several of the emails in the linked conversation between Verio and Cryptome, it warns them that people repeatedly receiving DMCA notices are in violation of the AUP. Doesn't sound like it matters whether the notices are fair or unfounded.

    • by v1 (525388)
      I have found that "but you let the OTHER GUYS do it" makes for a poor argument that rarely gets you anywhere.

      Saying "we don't allow THIS and THIS" does not bind a provider to applying the rule to all their customers. Instead it allows them to selectively enforce that rule for any subset of their customers that they choose to. This is so if one of the unlucky few that get the hammer does complain, the provider can say "but we told you so, we are just doing what we said we can do." AUPs are not to protect
  • by k1e0x (1040314) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @12:29PM (#18919223) Homepage


    We don't allow this kind of dissent in Soviet Amerika. If your not with us your a terrorist.

    Ok so that's a bit over the top but really what's this coming to? Where do we draw the line on Police state America?
    • I honestly don't see what your comments have to do with this discussion. I'm not really surprised you were modded insightful, as insulting the US is one of the new cool things around /. but this is a single corporation making a decision about not allowing a single site due to violations of what it deems acceptable use, nothing to do with the government far as I can see...
    • by Tom (822)
      I think you drew it in Q4 2001, when you opted for the feeling of security (not to be confused with actual security) over freedom.
  • Argh! This sucks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 29, 2007 @12:34PM (#18919251)
    Cryptome has been an indispensable ally in many wars against secrecy, ineptitude, corruption, and evil-doing conspiracies all over the place. John mirrored a couple of separate batches of stuff I had a minor involvement in, and in both cases the world was made (in a tiny way) a less crappy place by his actions.

    It's also a sad day in it's message that there is now, ultimately, no genuine free speech left on the net. If the state really really wants to suppress your message, it can do so. It's slow, labour intensive, and expensive for them to do this, so they don't usually bother; but when they need The System to function, it does.

  • Pcik a new ISP (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DogDude (805747) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @01:23PM (#18919543) Homepage
    So a web site has a problem with their ISP. So friggin' what? Pick a different ISP. There are millions of hosting companies out there. Everybody has problems of one kind or another with their web host, and switches. These guys should pick a new ISP and be done with it. I mean, tell people that Verio sucks for these reasons, but there's no reason the web site should shut down permanently... this whole thing sounds like drama for the sake of drama.
    • Drama for the sake of drama? Perhaps, but I don't think so. I think it's more an attempt to shame Verio. After all, Cryptome has been providing an important public service for years, and Verio shutting it down is not good for their public image.

      Personally, I think the energy should be spent finding better hosting. That is one problem with the activist types - any setbacks become a part of a larger conspiracy. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

      And sometimes a cigar will cause a president to get impeache
    • Re:Pcik a new ISP (Score:5, Interesting)

      by sphealey (2855) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @01:54PM (#18919755)
      > So a web site has a problem with their
      > ISP. So friggin' what? Pick a different ISP.

      Cryptome IS watched by various intelligence, counterintelligence, and law enforcement agencies. Young posted a funny exchange he had once with the "duty officer of the day" at a TLA; the guy told him that a certain document had been released accidently; could it please be withdrawn? Young of course said no, so the guy then said "I guess it is too late for this conversation not to be posted too?" - making it clear that he knew very well how Young runs Cryptome.

      So it may be very difficult for him to find another ISP. Maybe one related to Qwest will take him on, but they ISP has to know they WILL come under additional law enforcement pressure just as a result of hosting that site.

      sPh
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Cryptome IS watched by various intelligence, counterintelligence, and law enforcement agencies.

        Yes it is, and so now the burning question is which document of the
        thousands on Cryptome caused someone at one of those agencies to turn
        some powerful-enough screws to make Verio pull the plug without
        breathing a word about which document it might be.

        We must find what the government wishes to keep hidden and shine a
        spotlight on it, because that's how free and open nations remain so.
        • Yes it is, and so now the burning question is which document of the
          thousands on Cryptome caused someone at one of those agencies to turn
          some powerful-enough screws to make Verio pull the plug without
          breathing a word about which document it might be.


          Bingo. As this is sort of the "$64,000 question," I'm surprised few people have asked it in the thread so far.

          There obviously was something on cryptome that someone really, really didn't like, and decided to get medieval about. ... So the obvious question is: wha
          • by Niggle (68950)
            So, post half of the stuff on one site, half on another.
            See which gets taken down.
            Lather, rinse, repeat.

            Shouldn't take too long to narrow it down.
    • Re: (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I find it relevant, if only because I'm in a position where I often get to choose where my company hosts servers.

      If Verio arbitrarily terminates service to it's customers, I won't be choosing them. And I'll be letting their sales guys know why.

      (I certainly get an earful if something I've done loses a sale.)

      Logical Consequences.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by arcade (16638)
      Not to be rude or anything... but cryptome has been around for some years, and should be well known in geek circles.

      Your UserID (805747) suggests to me that you haven't been around for long.. maybe you should read up a bit on cryptome? :)

    • this whole thing sounds like drama for the sake of drama.
      Worse. This whole thing sounds like someone taking a minor action from a private company and turning it into an opportunity to promote themselves and their web site across Slashdot and the rest of the internet.
    • by evilviper (135110)

      So a web site has a problem with their ISP. So friggin' what? Pick a different ISP.

      You are a loud-mouthed idiot who clearly has no idea what Cryptome is, and didn't bother reading the fucking article to find out.

      With the tremendous pressure from the US Government, it's amazing Cryptome has been online this long. There are very few ISPs that will stick their necks out to support such a project, despite numerous visits from the FBI, and it was believed Verio/NTT was one of the great ones for supporting Crypt

    • What's to stop the g-men from sending another NSL to the new ISP?
    • Spoken truly like a person who's never migrated a major site from one ISP to another. The legal issues alone are enough to make my hair fall out and that's before we start to discuss new SLAs, etc.
  • I find it funny how a site like Cryptome can get shut down, while dozens of KKK, biker gang and neo-nazi hate sites go on with their merry business. That's one fucked up set of priorities they got there!
  • archive.org (Score:2, Funny)

    by achenaar (934663)
    This sort of thing always makes me want to check the site out for juicy stuff.
    archive.org wayback machine cache [archive.org] is my friend.
  • by fuckeverything (525664) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @02:43PM (#18920055)
    from their acceptable use thingy: "Other Activities -- Engaging in activities, whether lawful or unlawful, that Verio determines to be harmful to its subscribers, operations, reputation, goodwill, or customer relations." so they pretty much tell you straight away, that they pull your site once they dont like what you are hosting anymore.
    • I doubt very much that Verio, itself, cares one whit about what Cryptome publishes. The fact they're pulling his site in this manner indicates that they are very much under someone's thumb, however. More importantly, if a provider as large as Verio can be influenced in such a transparent manner, I doubt any of the others will be any safer so far as hosting a verboten site is concerned. Really, I'd think he'll have to go out of the country if he wants to keep his site up.

      I'm sure that there more than a fe
  • by Deagol (323173) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @02:54PM (#18920107) Homepage
    I recently signed up with them. Aside from their quirky/cool pricing scheme, the site's strong stance against censorship and privacy sold me on it instantly. All sites that get the ISP boot for unpopular (but not illegal in the US) should check out nearlyfreespeech.net [nearlyfreespeech.net].

    My only relation is a happy, new customer. It may not be the best fit for Cryptome, but there are at least hosting providers that do give a shit about not bowing down to the status quo.

    • I'm sure that they are great. I wonder if Global Crossing's TOS can coexist with theirs. I also wonder how big they are and how much support you would get given that their entire Internet presence consists of one half of a class C subnet (about enough for 125 dedicated IP addresses). Of course more than one web site can be hosted from a single IP and server but that's not practical for large sites.
    • They may have good intentions, but how big is their legal staff? Small vendors are more vulnerable than the Verios of the world. But the Verios may cave faster, because they're run by businessmen.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by poopdeville (841677)
      I wouldn't go with NearlyFreeSpeech.net. I had a very bad experience with the owner (Jeff) involving sudden cancellation of every account I had ever worked on.

      I was a web developer and recommended NFS to many clients because of the pricing structure and Catalyst support. All those accounts were cancelled in an attempt to discredit me professionally. He went as far as to email my then current client to insult me. Of course, I have a hard copy of our email conversation. All my clients moved to DreamHost
  • Why he stays in USA (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Frozen Void (831218) on Sunday April 29, 2007 @03:15PM (#18920269)
    I would suggest he move somewhere safer like Switzerland or Sweden.
    This should be done BEFORE making his site.
  • If you don't control it, you don't own it. At the risk of entering the realm of Conspiracy Theory, and with tinfoil hat firmly in place, I think it's pretty clear that "they" want to control the flow of information on the internet. Watch and see: the Great pr0n Crackdown is right around the corner.
  • Sadly, this doesn't matter as much as it might once have. Cryptome has obviously been compromised in some fashion, either being bought I've been going to the site for years, getting hooked on it once I read about a corporate espionage Keylogger called DIRT.

    Lately, however, the site has produced very little that isn't public domain already. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good site to quickly find things the government has already "told" us, or is commonly believed knowledge, but what happend to the Cr
  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a NSL require immediate takedown? Or at least the removal of a specific page. It seems like a webhost would be in legal jeopardy if they received a NSL and didn't act within a very short period of time.
  • Questions... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by sycodon (149926)
    For all you Slashdotters out there who lament the loss of this site and future postings of secret documents.

    It is obvious that many people believe it is OK to leak secret information as long as it is "for the greater good". But the question of what is the greater good often depends on your political leanings.

    So I ask...

    What is the greater good?
    What kinds of things do you think should not be leaked?
    Who do you think has the appropriate knowledge to decide?

    And last, what should happen to someone who decides in

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