FBI Arrests Neteller Execs 379
Alcibaides writes "In a follow-up to the 2006 law attacking Internet gambling, the FBI arrested two former Neteller executives in 'connection with the creation and operation of an Internet payment services company that facilitated the transfer of billions of dollars of illegal gambling proceeds.' Apparently, the execs were 'ambushed' as they passed through the U.S. on connecting flights. Consequently, Neteller has dropped all gambling-related activity to U.S. customers, a move not expected for several months."
WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Worrying... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't ever take a flight that stops over in the US if I've done something that the US might not like, even if it's perfectly legal in my country.
Fun while it lasted. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't see why the federal government is making such a huge deal out of online gambling, aside from the fact that it is currently not taxed. I don't really think the government deserves any more money, but I'd rather pay a small tax on my gaming than have it outlawed as some mysteriously corrupt moral issue. Other than taxation, how is this any different from the government endorsed lottery or allowed casinos in Atlantic City and Vegas?
Those executives should've gotten into warmaking. (Score:5, Insightful)
US is trying to enforce its law on the whole world (Score:5, Insightful)
Many companies/people operate fully within the law of the land they live in. If this is breaking a US law, then the US should work with that government to harmonize the laws.
This is similar to how Muslim courts found danish cartoonist guilty of depicting mohammed, and condemned them to death.
Just too strange for words (Score:5, Insightful)
Leaving aside for a moment the ridiculous two faced nature of American anti-gambling laws, this is just beyond a joke. As I understand it, the two former execs in question had left the company before the SAFE Port Act was passed. So they've been arrested for setting up a company that is 100% legal in their country of origin, and was legal at the time in the USA as well (in fact, it's still legal for non-gambling related payments), and they no longer have anything to do with the company in question, aside from still holding shares.
"Land of the free", huh? I'm lost for words. The American legal system is just a joke.
Re:US is trying to enforce its law on the whole wo (Score:2, Insightful)
Respectfully, I have to call bullshit. It's not the US trying to enforce its law on the whole world. Its the US trying to enforce its laws within their borders. Gambling businesses are making money from people living within US borders where that business is illegal. If you violate US law, don't step foot within their borders. They may arrest you. Having said that, the US would do a whole lot better working with these folks for a share of the profits. It certainly is not unreasonable to say, "Give us a share for letting your business be legal in our jurisdiction". Besides, it might subsidize my income tax.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
This also serves to point out another problem with US laws--they are so damn imprecise, broad, so encompassing, that it's simply up to the prosecution to pick and choose who they want to send to prison. Prosecutorial discretion, usually leveraged wisely, has now just become another tool to further political goals and new types of discrimination.
This is like an American posting on an internet site hosted in Germany something that flies against hate speech laws in Germany from his home computer. Then, while traveling in Germany on a connecting flight to Italy, getting arrested. Ridiculous...and dangerous--this sets up the possibility of backlash as precedent for US citizens traveling to foreign countries to be arrested for "crimes" that were not illegal and performed in the US but flies in the face of foreign laws.
Passing through. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:US is trying to enforce its law on the whole wo (Score:4, Insightful)
If I have to consider the laws of all nations in the world, I pretty much have to hire attorneys from each of the contries to review my website.
And I can not:
1. Enjoy fredom of expression (Illegal all over, including china)
2. Critizise leaders (putin, il-jung-sum, most communists and others)
3. Advertize alcoholic beverages (Illegal in many arab countires)
4. Have any sexual material (again illegal in many countires)
5. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than allah
6. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than jhave
7. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than
8. Download music(illegal in USA)
An in many cases illegal means "To be stoned to death"
Is this what you advocate?
Re:Fun while it lasted. (Score:3, Insightful)
It would be stupid for them to cheat. All that matters to them is that people are playing. Once they have that it's a license to print money. The real risk of online poker is cheating from other players. And they take that seriously. I've written software for one to help them analyze playing patterns and detect collusion. They *want* the games to be as fair as possible. It's their best strategy.
Re:Fun while it lasted. (Score:5, Insightful)
Folding Your Opponent's Hand (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fun while it lasted. (Score:5, Insightful)
The house has no interest in stacking the deck. They are making a crapload. The people who say this are generally people who lost a bunch of money playing online poker, probably because (GASP) they aren't very good.
Re:Not US Citizens... (Score:5, Insightful)
The only wrinkle?! That's the difference between not committing a crime and committing one!
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the Kazaa defense. The Allofmp3.com defense.
It doesn't matter where the casino is based. It matters that the casino was being marketed to customers in the U.S. It matters that the casino was accepting payments from U.S. accounts.
If you have assets in the states that can be seized, they will be seized. If you have people in the states who can be arrested, they will be arrested.
These are the ground rules when you set up shop off-shore.
Re:Worrying... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not US Citizens... (Score:2, Insightful)
You can thank the uninformed, stupid, voters and the even more uniformed, and even more stupid people that don't vote.
PGA
How does this help us at all? (Score:4, Insightful)
So really, is there any reason for this law? I mean, not a reason for the government, but for the people, you know... who the goverment should be making laws for.
Why does the US Government feel that they are entitled to get a cut of every single thing that we do? We payed taxes on the money we play poker with, AND if you make enough playing poker, you have to pay taxes on that! So what the hell do they want? Do they want to take a tax on every single hand played?
This is really just a disgusting show by our goverment where they are not even trying to be subtle in showing us that they can fuck with us whenever they want to.
Re:Not US Citizens... (Score:4, Insightful)
Most countries would agree with that stance. Suppose you sat north of the US Canadian border and started launching RPGs into the US? Don't you think that it would pretty reasonable for the US to figure that you have violated US laws by that action even though you have not entered the US?
Or suppose I shipped food into Canada labelled as baby formula when it contained Botulitis toxin? Wouldn't you think that Canada would figure that I had violated Canadian law?
Some of the comments in this thread are utteerly ridiculous in thier views of what a nation regards as its sovereign rights.
Re:Send the message (Score:2, Insightful)
Stephen Eric Lawrence was in the Virgin Islands when he was arrested. Does that place get many connecting flights?
We've got to be careful writing these petitions. We don't want to include facts that can easily be looked up and disproven, or the FBI will laugh us off.
What's really interesting... (Score:4, Insightful)
These two gentlemen founded what was a perfectly legal business in the Isle of Man, Neteller PLC, in 1999. Mr Lawrence resigned as a non-executive director of the Company on 13 October 2006 having stepped down as non-executive chairman of the Company on 11 May 2006. Mr Lefebvre resigned as a non-executive director of the Company on 15 December 2005.
With the passage of the "Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006" the activities of Neteller PLC in regard to transferring funds of US citizens for the purpose of gambling became illegal.
Think it through. If you founded, or are an 'owner' by virtue of stock holdings, of a company whose activities are declared illegal somewhere in the world, and you happen to pass through a territory of that country, you could be held, your passport take away, without recourse. Before you hop on that next international flight, is every company in your retirement plan's mutual funds squeaky clean in all places you might touch down?
No kidding (Score:3, Insightful)
Furthermore (I've said this many times before), I believe that the 2006 law was completely driven by the Vegas casinos. Making online gambling illegal does several great things for their cause: 1) It stops or greatly slows the unbelievable flood of cash leaving the US and going into the pockets of Party Poker, etc. 2) It forces the US lawmakers to decide whether or not poker is a form of gambling, and thus, illegal. That's the biggie. As part of the 2006 law, a committee was established to determine the answer to that exact question. And I'll bet you that the same dirty Vegas (read Mob) money that got that law passed in the first place is also going to ensure that the committee's decision is that poker is a "game of skill" and is therefore exempt from all this hooplah over online gambling. And presto, the Vegas bigwigs have an open door to legal online poker, which is by far the most lucrative form of online gambling.
Re:Just too strange for words (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Just too strange for words (Score:3, Insightful)
br>One might suspect not.
How about those Wall Street investors who have invested in these same companies?
I doubt it.
Again this is an example of the good ol' US of A throwing it's weight around to increase the bank balances of a few of it's blessed citizens. The fact that the US is goin after companies that trade (legally) in one of the few countries on earth that actually supports them is particularly shameful.
Re:Worrying... (Score:3, Insightful)
But are we talking about crime here? No, the executives in question apparently didn't even work for Netteller any more. And of course, Netteller isn't actually being accused of commiting a crime. Further, government has no business interfering with gambling. The only justification I've heard is some vague notion that gambling causes crime and lures people into friviously wasting their money. Those are costs of having humans in your society. I note that gambling in the US hasn't become scarce merely because it is almost everywhere illegal.
Why do you think the US has the right to create spurious laws? I think that's more because the Constitution (and of course, its amendments) is a flawed document and doesn't adequately (even when properly applied) protect US citizens from abuse of government power. For example, the First Amendment only protects speech. It doesn't protect other actions like gambling. My take is that any action, particularly economic and political ones that doesn't directly harm another person should be legal. So gambling, recreational drug use, prostitution, etc should be legal. And as long as some things are illegal which should be legal, then we won't respect the law. It is that simple.
Re:Not US Citizens... (Score:3, Insightful)
None of that makes the analogy wrong. It was late at night when I posted, so I probably should have picked a better analogy but didnt.
How about some dictator of a country (Country X) killing hundreds of thousands of his own citizens, as well as any foreign citizens stupid enough to enter his country. By his laws it is completely lawful for him to do so. Lets just say there are 23 other countries (Countries A - W) in the world that have similar laws allowing dictators to kill whoever they want to in their own country.
If the dictator of Country X decided to travel to San Deigo for vacation, I would like to believe that the United States has every right to arrest him for crimes against humanity even if that isnt against the law in his country. He didnt even break the law in our country, but I still dont think it is wrong to detain him. Even if there are a large number of other countries that agree with his laws, I still dont think it is wrong to arrest this man.
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Re:Just too strange for words (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:passive vs active (Score:3, Insightful)
It is not illegal for Americans to gamble online. What is illegal is for a business to collect money in the US resulting from that activity. This is exactly what Neteller does, i.e. perform financial transactions in the US that are illegal.
Re:Not US Citizens... (Score:3, Insightful)
I am sure it would be illegal in Canada to fire the RPG. I am not so sure that shipping adulterated food offshore would be illegal. But that is not the point. The point is that it is perfectly reasonable to envision a case where a person who is not physically in country XYZ could violate that country's laws. Food quality requirements vary considerably from one nation to the next.
It is irrelevant to this point as to whether the country the person is in has a similar law or not.
As far as the US being the only country where online gambling is illegal, that is certainly not true. Australia for one also prohibits online gambling. I am sure there are others.