US Visitor Fingerprints To Be (Perhaps) Stored by FBI 503
stair69 writes "Since 2004 many visitors to the United States have had 2 fingerprints taken under the US-VISIT scheme. Now there are new plans to extend this scheme — under the proposal all 10 fingerprints will be taken, and they will be stored permanently on the FBI's criminal fingerprint database. The fingerprints will also be made available to police forces in other countries. The scheme is due to be introduced by the end of 2008, but it will be trialled in 10 of the bigger airports initially." Of course, it is worth pointing out that given the recent change in Congress, I suspect that a number of countries will get a "bye" on this round,
Hilarious (Score:3, Interesting)
Just another reason... (Score:5, Interesting)
What the heck is that supposed to mean? (Score:5, Interesting)
What the heck is that supposed to mean? What countries? And why? And, for that matter, how is congress going to get involved at that level of detail...especially since they're already claiming they can't even do anything to stop Bush from escalating the war, despite the fact that by most accounts they were elected to do just that?
Was part of this remark clipped off (note the trailing comma) or am I missing some interpretation that is less senseless than the obvious?
--MarkusQ
Re:Nothing for me to worry about (Score:1, Interesting)
You mean the world-at-large, yes? I think England pioneered consumerism while the US was still stealing from the natives and making the push Westward.
Don't blame us, in other words.
Whatnow? (Score:3, Interesting)
I was under the impression that the recent change in congress was motivated by the people of this fine nation tired of America breaking all the rules of decentcy, rights of the people, and other things of that nature... So how would some countries get a "bye"? What is a "bye"? Is it a general banning? If so, most Democratic Party methods of increasing money and lowering debt is raising tarrifs and increasing tourism... Banning the richest, although terrorist prone, nations is not something they would want to do.
Or is it that with the recent change in Congress, this bill will go "bye"? That America will no longer rubber-stamp a Big Brother nation into being...
back at ya (Score:5, Interesting)
Avoiding the USA..? (Score:4, Interesting)
If this goes ahead, before visiting the USA I want to know:
1) What is the chance of a false positive with this system? i.e. what is the chance that it might think I am someone they are looking for?
2) What is the procedure then for someone who is not an American citizen?
I can imagine what hell you might go through if this system identifies you as a wanted terrorist - not a chance I want to take, even if the odds of it happening are very low.
If you lived in the UK (Score:2, Interesting)
Think yourself lucky you got the Bush part of the Blair Bush combo.
You don't have to be guilty. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Holy hell (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Avoiding the USA..? (Score:5, Interesting)
So, it's quite unlikely that they'll be checking your airport-scanned fingerprints against the whole database while you wait, as they can't possibly have as many experts checking prints, and would have to automate the process (allowing the system to declare HIT/NOHITs automatically, which means there'd be an error margin). If they did automate the process and actually look for your prints in the whole database, they should be trained and informed that any result from such a system is NOT definitive, and subject to an expert's confirmation to be taken seriously.
If they're doing anything else than just taking the prints and storing them (no, didn't read tfa.. will do later), most probably they'll be doing authentication rather than identification. That is, the first time they take your prints, store them on a DB related to your passport number for example. When you pass thru the airport again, you're re taken your prints, and they're searched on the DB by your passport number... if your record on the DB says there's your prints there, it will compare the prints it just scanned to the ones on the DB, if they match, no problem, if they don't, houston we have a problem (auth is way more accurate than ident when done automatically, and of course orders of magnitude faster).
but that's not the problem.. what really scares me is that they're (according to the summary) adding them to a CRIMINAL database!.. that's outright illegal in some countries, and it should well be!! Normally there's a civil database, which is used for civil ident (like say on a bank, or to get a new document or something), and only uses 2 or 6 fingers, non-rolled, which are not fit for matching against crime-scene-lifted partial prints (btw, its quite rare to find a complete, perfect print on a crime scene a la CSI or worse, national treasure.. BS). And then there's criminal systems which keep all 10 fingers, rolled, which can be used to search against crime-scene-lifted partial fps. Mixing the two sucks. Sadly It's also done here in Argentina when you get a passport, as they only have one AFIS system for the federal police, they use the same one both for criminals and for civilians.. (apparently we can't afford 2 systems). Records belong to one scope or the other depending on the ID type. The criminal record (if there's any) is kept elsewhere, on another system, and it's only referenced manually with a common key.
Still sucks
Re:Home of the free... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What next....really? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that's the most disturbing part for me. Imagine getting picked up when landing in London because you were accidentally tagged as a "money launderer" by the Spanish. It would probably take weeks to get sorted out. In the mean time you could kiss your job good-bye. On top of that with so many databases sharing so much information, you might never be really "cleared." You might land in the US again and get detained for days while they sort out the fact that the Spanish tagged you as a "money launderer," even though it was fixed on the British copy of the Spanish database.
I saw a news item recently about a girl who'd been held for 30 days for having condoms full of flour, which airport official claimed were drugs. (Apparently filling condoms with flour is how the girls at her school make stress releaving squeezies - odd but eccentricity is not a crime). She spent 30 days in jail while substance was re-tested, only to discover it was, in fact, flour.
Another example is the US no-fly list. It has literally cost people their livelihoods when they were no longer able to fly. The worst part is they use really poor matching techniques like name matches - so anyone with certain names were not able to board airplanes! Another man interviewed by the Daily Show was labeled as Saddam Huessein's *dead* son, whose age would have required Saddam to have sired him at the age of 11!.
Here's another delicious example. People who buy large boats that were siezed as part of drug raids often get boarded by the coast guard. The identification number on the ship is almost impossible to change, and the coast guard decides to board the ship based on the registration number. Even though the original owner was arrested and his property was siezed.
Is this really a good idea?
Re:Nothing for me to worry about (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm scared to do business in the USA (Score:3, Interesting)
The post-9/11 world has changed my views on this, and it just keeps getting worse!
There is no way I will go to the United States to work! I am even avoiding it for the holidays. 10 years ago, we used to just drive south of the border for shopping or recreation - day trips. It's becoming a scary police state and now I'm avoiding travel down south whenever possible.
I guess that's the intended effect of these xenophobic laws, right... keep the law-abiding professional workers (and wealthy tourists) out of your country. Good thing the US economy is so healthy. Ooops
Re:If you lived in the UK (Score:1, Interesting)
The cops demanded we all produce ID to prove we were not violating curfew (at the time curfew in Phoenix AZ was 10:00 for people 16 and under if I remember correctly) two of the 5 of us refused to produce ID claiming they had left their wallets at home (one of the two was 16 and in violation of curfew). We were told that if you are out after curfew you are required to have ID on you at all times.
The police ordered them out of the car had them walk back to the police cruiser and turn out their pockets to prove that they didn't have their wallets or ID on them. Eventually they were convinced that the two didn't have any ID on them and let us go on with a ticket for the stop sign and a warning for the two without ID.
I don't really know if the police were telling the truth about ID being required, and given how often various laws change I would be surprised if the cops thought he was right but was actually wrong, but If you don't have ID don't be surprised to be harassed if a cop decides that he thinks you should have it.
Madness (Score:1, Interesting)
The US used to stand as a beacon for freedom and democracy, what, I wonder would a survey round the world turn up now?
24hr fitness wants fingerprints (Score:1, Interesting)
and a biometric fingerprint sensor. The red faced young girl asked me to
please scan my fingerprint and then enter my phone number.
I didn't even bother to ask how they were going to secure the database
of phone numbers and fingerprints. I asked her what the alternative ID
method was. She said I could show my driver's license and gym membership card.
Their old policy used to be that you could use a xerox or old expired license -
that way you can put both of these inside the plastic card holder and
not worry about leaving your license in your wallet. So, this is a mild pain.
But I simply don't trust them with this information. My fingerprint is none
of their business. And I CERTAINLY don't trust them to keep the data secure.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
No prints, not no *skin*. (Score:3, Interesting)
There are also certain occupations -- cutting up pineapple was one, I think -- where the workers fingertips are in contact with solvents that gradually burn away the prints.
Of course, the top few layers of skin are gradually *replaced* by your body, so if you quit with the sander you'll get your same prints back after awhile.