Consumer Strikes Back at Crooked Online Retailer 659
BigBadLad writes "Seems like customers are at a huge disadvantage when dealing with dishonest retailers. This is the story of a man who had a horrible experience with an online camera retailer. In short he was lied to, yelled at, and threatened to be sued if he posted the experience on his blog. He was also persuaded to sign an agreement that would allow the retailer to charge him an extra $100 if he left bad feedback."
My mom's terrible experience with these croooks (Score:5, Interesting)
How can we persue the owner, not just the store? (Score:4, Interesting)
Price focus leads to bad quality (Score:2, Interesting)
With shopping search engines placing the focus directly on price, and the ease at which you can set up an online store, it probably invites people like this to set up low quality operations where they cut costs by doing things like not having stock.
I agree you should target the people behind such sites rather than the sites themselves, as it's too easy for them to just set up a new site and do it all over again.
That's angering... (Score:5, Interesting)
I also shut down my own online store due to what appeared to be an organized plot against one my stores. I'm not a tinfoil hat type, so hear me out... I operate 4 online stores, doing the drop ship thing. It was 5, but one business I opened seem to go up in flames once I started getting page ranks. How? I began getting orders from customers who demanded overnight shipping and immediate confirmation of overnight shipping. As my stores clearly state we do not have a phone number and that we do not offer overnight shipping on anything, this really was bizzarre. They would complain within hours of placing the orders.
Shortly, we recieved complaints from the better business beaureu from these customers who had NEVER BEEN CHARGED, and the complaints contained completely blown out of proportion accounts of what happened. Including accusations that we swore at them on the phone(which is a neat trick since we don't operate a phone number), gave them false tracking numbers, etc... We later found out it wasn't just BBB reports, it was also showing up in online message boards where our target market resided, as well as online consumer complaint websites.
I just shut the store down entirely because I didn't want to deal with it. What convinces me this was a plot is simply that none of this crap has happened to my other stores. I've operated them just fine, with very few complaints. But in this one sector, I suspect there is some business out there who didn't like my growing page ranks or my feedback ratings. And it just started out of the blue, shortly after we began getting high placements in google, yahoo, and MSN.
Anyone else here experience that? Just wondering.
Re:bourgeois blogs (Score:3, Interesting)
In contrast, most people feel that, even armed with the internet, a blog and the resulting social networking, one cannot do anything about Iraq.
Even Better! (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.pricerunner.com/retailer/14312/reviews [pricerunner.com]
Look through the list, and you can see 70% of the 5 star ratings are almost cut and pasted identical. Spelling errors matched post for post. It's so blatant that the review page has been put on hold while they verify the reviews. No doubt PriceRitePhoto trying to water down the negative feedback to protect their images.
Look for I purchased a Panasonic AG-DVC60 W/Pro Accessory Kit. I was very pleased with there selection of accessories in this kit, I believe I got the best Value for my buck. Also unlike most other internet ordering sites like this I found it very easy to talk to the sales and custumer service people. There was short waiting times on the phone as well as people who were easy to understand and willing to help me with my order from selection to delivery. I would recomend checking out PriceRitePhoto.com before making your next purchace.
Losers, how low can you go? Apparently PRP found an express elevator to ultimate lameness.
C&A Marketing's front door (Score:5, Interesting)
Storefront Photos (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Accountability (Score:2, Interesting)
And the fact that this blogger has been around for a while is another reason you could have been reasonably confident it wasn't just set up by a competitor.
Re:My mom's terrible experience with these croooks (Score:2, Interesting)
Coincidence? I think not!
Re:The advantage of social networks (Score:2, Interesting)
Backhanded Positive Feedback (Score:3, Interesting)
So if you've been extorted into providing non-negative feedback, you can always talk about how thrilled you were about the merchandise not actually being available and how exciting it was to wonder what charges were going to show up on your credit card bill this month and how happy you'd be about the merchandise if what you ordered actually ever showed up....
I too was (almost) a victim (Score:5, Interesting)
I was searching for a Canon S400 and found one of these sites offering the camera for $100 less than anything even close. I knew it was too good to be true, so I called on the phone, illegally recording it but I wanted to have proof anyway. I asked specifically 1) was it refurbished (no) 2) was it the US model (yes) and 3) was it the retail version (yes). Okay, I figured I had all my bases covered, so I ordered it.
Warning bells went off when I got a call the next day from a sales rep asking if I wanted to upgrade the battery for only $15 more. Apparently, the battery that came with this model only lasts "30-40 photos" because Canon skimped on it. I was pretty damn sure a company like Canon wouldn't be so stupid, so after asking to call him back (so I could hit record on my answer machine) I asked if the battery that came with the camera was brand new and from Canon. Yes on both counts, so, I told him no thanks, just the camera and the "inferior" battery.
I received the camera and right off the bat I knew why it was $100 cheaper. It was the Japanese model. Basically, these a-holes had someone over in Korea or Taiwan fill up a shipping container with everything and sent it over here to the US. Grey-market. It's cheaper because of difference in currency, but despite being the "same" thing, it's not for two reasons: 1) Packaging...which isn't really important but 2) No US warrantee...which is VERY important. Also, US manufacturers can refuse to service foreign models (though they rarely do). Technically, your warantee is back overseas where the camera came from.
I called them and was told that was why it I was offered a chance to buy a warantee on the website. I pointed out that I paid for the US model, and did not receive it. I was told it was the US model it was just "imported direct from the manufacturer". I told them sorry, no dice, I want to return it. They said they would send me instructions. The instruction? 1) no returns without RMA number and 2) the only way to get an RMA number is to sign a form that you accept a 20% restocking fee. I took one look and called my credit card company.
Big plug here for Chase MasterCard. I have had to dispute six times in the four years I've had the card, and every time they worked FOR me against the merchant and made sure things turned out well. This time was no exception. The Chase rep sent me a simple form, where I checked the box "merchandise was not as advertised". For proof I send a picture of the website showing the model number (PowerShot S400) and the product box I received (IXY 400) Yes, they were the same physical camera, but not what I paid for!
I sent in the dispute and it was approved and I got my money back. Then the fun began! The merchant disputed my dispute, sending in a picture of a US box and saying that was what I received. Chase asked me to send them a different copy of the box, which I easily did. Then Chase informed me that I couldn't keep the product and I would need to return it to the company. I was pretty pissed about the concept of losing even $20 to ship it back to these crooks, but the helpful Chase person pointed out that MasterCard did not care how it went back to the company and suggested COD. (guinness)Brilliant!(/guinness) So, I packed up the camera and sent it COD without an RMA number. Surprise surprise, it was rejected and sent back to me. Yes, I had to pay the shipping both ways. But here's the fun part...I had attempted to return it and that's all Chase needed me to do. I sent in a copy of the shipping form and was issued the final resolution to my dispute: full ref
Camera shops from Brooklyn, NY (Score:4, Interesting)
I end up buying the camera from a store in South Carolina and there were no problems whatsoever and I had it in few days with everything as advertised. That is when I decided not to ever buy anything online from shops based in Brooklyn, NY. No matter how cheap it seems. I seriously think this matter should be investigated and this shop is just one of many there.
Re:And Fax number (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually going there would be kind of dumb even if you do enjoy a visit to Brooklyn. It will be a nondescript graffiti-covered brick place with a rollup door and just enough identification to take deliveries. Knocking on the door is probably just asking for a beating.
He'll be back with a new website, new fake feedback in all the right places, same scheme. He won't lose any sleep either.
Re:That's angering... (Score:5, Interesting)
As far as competitors plots go, stay far away from pron and other "discount" markets, and/or price wars. Because unless you are at the top of the chain and can afford other people to do the work for you it ain't worth it. Go for big spenders and be an honest merchant.
Re:Why are you complaining about the results? (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah sure - there are many comments from other sources that seem to back up his opinion about the company. His blog didn't just pop up a day ago, so he has some credibility. But still, one can imagine accumulating credibility just for the sole purpose of misusing it - it's called eBay style attack if I am not mistaken. Just some food for thought - the joy over bad guys getting it shouldn't stop us from thinking about the good guys that could also get it undeserved. Won't someone please think of the good guys!?!?
Re:That's angering... (Score:5, Interesting)
Shortly, we recieved complaints from the better business beaureu from these customers who had NEVER BEEN CHARGED, and the complaints contained completely blown out of proportion accounts of what happened. Including accusations that we swore at them on the phone(which is a neat trick since we don't operate a phone number), gave them false tracking numbers, etc... We later found out it wasn't just BBB reports, it was also showing up in online message boards where our target market resided, as well as online consumer complaint websites.
Assuming the credit card details and such of these orders were valid, it couldn't really have been a big job to find out who was behind this. I mean, I know of many cases where people have been filling up message boards and consumer complaint websites with bullshit, but it has always been out of thin air. If you had real names, real people to go after I would. A few well-placed legal letters from a lawyer about a slander lawsuit would quickly have people pointing at the real culprit. And assuming it did over $5000 of damage (doesn't take much), send the FBI on their case.
Re:Brightened my day (Score:5, Interesting)
It gets you:
*12.7 megapixels.
*Very high light sensitivity. (ISO 3200 which is about eight better times your average digicam.)
*Low noise(It will look cleaner at ISO 3200 than your average camera at ISO 400.)
*Fast shutter speeds(1/8000th of a second.)
*Interchangable lenses(Let's see you do that for less than $600 new.)
*Filters, polarizers, hoods, and diopters for those lenses.
*Full 35mm size CMOS sensor(for true wide angle shots(think 7mm.)
*Start-up time less than 1/3rd of a second(Your average digicam has about 3-7 seconds start-up.)
*Pro quality and strength flashes.
*Ability to slave multiple flashes(think portrait studio.)
*Ability to control the exposure for HOURS if needed(I've done some neat stuff with long exposures.)
*Remote shutter control.
*Underwater housing.
*Fast focus-to-shot(near instant, better than the half second or more some digicams take.)
*Focus and track moving subjects
*More focus and light metering options(Get that shot right the first time.)
*Shoot 3 frames per second for 60 frames(See the dust fly off the baseball when it's hit.)
I could go on and on. This type of camera is overkill for your average mom wanting to take pictures at Christmas. It's a real tool in the hands of a creative person.
Show me a 12.7 megapixel camera for $290. Hell, show me an 8 megapixel camera for $290 and I'll show you a piece of garbage.
Not everone needs a set of $2,000 cutlery, but you wouldn't give a professional chef a knock off Swiss army knife to do your meal with would you?
High-end cameras, high-priced computers (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh, but you were really talking about high-priced cameras. The high-end stuff usually does cost an order of magnitude more than the pretty good stuff when it first comes out, and if you're a professional photographer it may make sense to buy it. If you need whatever this year's version of really high resolution is, with really perfect optics, really good color definition, high speed, and able to plug in a wide range of professional-quality lenses and similar frobs, yeah, you could spend that kind of money. On the other hand, if you're going to post pictures on a web page, a $99 camera and Photoshop is probably overkill. My general preference is toward the $49 range, e.g. a camera that would be $29 with a couple of features fixed, like removable memory cards instead of built-in, and slightly better batteries and maybe a flash. But I mostly take pictures to remember travel and family get-togethers, and 1024x768 is more than I need.
Re:That's angering... (Score:1, Interesting)
I have noticed the same thing regarding markets. The "research supply"(I don't want to be too specific and give away my hard researched niches) site we operate has nothing but the best customers. We've only had valid complaints, usually arising from an error on the part of our dropshippers. Zero cases of fraud. The other end of the spectrum would be our DVD site(not pr0n, but a nice niche). A case of fraud every few months, but almost always catch it before it costs us. Customers can be rude, but it's hard to say for sure as some people can come off rude in emails without meaning too.
This though...
As far as competitors plots go, stay far away from pron and other "discount" markets, and/or price wars.
That's probably where we went wrong. The market we targeted and our pricing was very aggressive, and it definetly would have included a much more unsavory element in our audience than our other stores. Maybe they were just crazy, but I don't know. it was just weird. It was nearly every day another one would pop up and sometimes 2.
Thanks for the reply. G/L this season!
Same experience with ebuyer (Score:3, Interesting)
They've gone worse and worse over the past 18 months, too! Ebuyer is still cheap with loads of goodies and their website is easy to navigate, but I'm sorry to say their customer service is plain shite. Don't shop with ebuyer. If anything goes wrong with your order, don't expect it to be sorted... ever.
They don't do email, just "enotes" (which will take you an hour to send because that particular part of the website is so slow it loses connection all the time) and phone. Phone is expensive, and enotes they read and reply to weeks after... if they feel like it at all. I'm trying to have a conversation with their main man "david" but with weeks between replies, it just seems silly. They operate in the US too (I'm in the UK). Maybe if they piss-off someone enough in the US it'll get ugly. Here, they just hope you'll get bored and give-up, and go away.
My misfortune? I ordered a 120GB seagate drive, received a broken 200GB maxtor covered in finger prints. Difficult to argue "you sent me a drive I did not order and it's broken" when "david" says ebuyer or their warehouses don't do mistakes... Yeah right, do you remember last time you sent me an AGP card when I ordered the PCI version? And that time last year when my order turned-up weeks after chrismas even though I paid extra charge to have it delivered on time? My current problem has been going-on since last summer. I have a feeling I lost the money.
Well, least I can do is warn you not to buy anything from them... and don't trust me, check the other reviews online!
Re:How can we persue the owner, not just the store (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
One time card numbers (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Virtual CC Numbers = the w1n ! ! ! (Score:3, Interesting)
(Assuming you have a credit card with them) you log on to the website and the program generates a different temporary card number that bills to your regular card. The virtual card has a 1-month expiration date, and only acccepts one single charge (I found that out the first time I tried to use the same virtual account number at three different online retailers--the first one went through, the other later two got rejected. I had to send them each a different virtual number). This way you don't ever need to use your real card number online, and the number you do give is always different, and it can't be charged multiple times,,, or even at all after two months at the most. (prevents logged CC numbers at online retailers from getting hax0red and used later)
There are probably a lot of reasons to not like Citibank, but this is one thing they have done that is very good.
---And of course this would not have prevented the situation from happening, but it certainly cuts down on the possible excess charging that can be done. I don't know what other credit-card companies do it, none of the rest of mine do, but I don't use any other credit-card for online transactions at all anymore.
~
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't buy from NYC area sellers (Score:4, Interesting)
Oops! I didn't preview (Try Again) (Score:4, Interesting)
Their email tells the user to leave a five star review at shopping sites using the following link: http://www.priceritephoto.com/priceritephoto/offer [priceritephoto.com] .htm and the text below: **Please do NOT mention this in the review, we do not offer this to all our customers. **Please do NOT mention my name or the fact that we asked to write a review the websites will not post it. This will also make you eligible for FREE shipping on any accessory purchases in the future
Well at least that explains how they manage to keep thier review ratings so high. And the people who actually fall for the bait and switch will be the ones most likely to fall for the FREE STUFF line as well.
I'm not a member of any of these shopping sites but I wonder how the sites will react if someone submitted the above link to thier complaints departments.
What a bizarre conversation (Score:3, Interesting)
When someone goes nutz like that over the phone, I've found that just laughing at them seems to work.
Re:$100 for chargebacks (Score:2, Interesting)
The Internet as Shaming Mechanism (Score:2, Interesting)
It's one of the (in my opinion, relatively few) things that could quite literally only happen online. With the advent of free blogs and such, almost anyone anywhere can post a message intending to call attention to negative behaviour of someone or something. It can then be linked to, blogosphered, slashdotted, forummed, digged (dugg?), viral-emailed, wikied, and so on, infinitely. We're seeing the birth of a new application of the internet: the network as a tool of disorganised justice.
I, for one, find this at once exciting, slightly frightening, and certainly interesting. The idea that networked ordinary people can do what law-enforcement authorities worldwide cannot is exciting. This genuinely has a chance to change the world. The frightening aspect is that much of this information is instantly taken at face value and unchecked, and the human tendency toward exaggeration is always a factor: if an innocent person or business were shamed in this way, it would be tragic.
It will be very interesting to see where this concept takes us. Hang on, folks, it's going to be one hell of a ride.
It's not even a "guy"... (Score:5, Interesting)
From a sociological standpoint, these are fascinating organizations, especially in the way that they sometimes slowly, over time, evolve into "proper" retail outlets, (e.g. J&R Music/Video)... and sometimes "devolve" back into criminality (e.g. Crazy Eddie [wikipedia.org]).
Almost happened to me. (Score:4, Interesting)
I got an email the next day asking me to call and confirm my order. WTF? With most online retailers, you confirm the order by, you know, placing the order and entering your payment information. I fired back an email saying 'consider it confirmed.'
2 weeks later, they still haven't touched my credit card for the lens. I call up, navigate through their voicemail (fortunately it's a 1-800 number, so at least they're eating the cost), and talk to the guy who I'm supposed to call. He tries to upsell me a UV filter, because if I'm using it with a digital camera, and I take photos outside, I'll "get a lot of glare off the CCD." Now, I put UV filters on my lenses anyway, just for the sake of keeping crud off the lens while I'm shooting, so I was planning on picking one up anyway. I asked the price, he said $50. $50, for a filter that goes for $10 at any camera shop around here.
I told him forget the filter, just ship the lens. He said okay.
1 week later, they still haven't hit my card. I call back, ask about the order number, now they tell me it's out of stock. This is while I'm looking at their web page, which claims they have it in stock. I told them to just cancel my order, and fortunately they didn't give me any shit over it, I assume because it was only a $109 lens instead of a $3,000 camera.
Lesson learned: never order from a camera shop in Brooklyn.
Re:My mom's terrible experience with these croooks (Score:3, Interesting)
To which my response would be: "Hm. That's more than twice what my bank charges for a Stop Payment."
Hehe, that's great. It's amazing how few people actually take advantage of that option when they are faced with being screwed over.
I was being held hostage by a car repair shop once. He had broken an unrelated part (a $300 unrelated part!) in the process of installing my new fuel pump. He insisted that I should have to pay the full cost (parts and labor) of fixing this part. I refused. He said that if I didn't then he wouldn't fix it. We argued about it. I tried to meet him half way (offered to pay for the part but not the labor) -- that wasn't good enough.
Eventually I just told him to fix it and I'd pay him whatever he wants. When it came time to settle the bill I paid him for cash for the part of the bill that I agreed with and wrote him a check for the rest. After driving off his lot I stopped at my credit union and put a stop order on the check.
He has done everything he can to harass me. He used to call me four times a day threatening to sue. He cornered me at the drug store once. I told him to go ahead and sue me if that was his intent -- so far he hasn't bothered. Given the set of events and existing state law that says I didn't have to pay for anything (my offer to pay for the part was just me trying to come to a deal in good faith) I highly doubt he could win any lawsuit.
Don't mess with me. I'm one of those few people left that actually cares about customer service
Re:I don't buy from NYC area sellers (Score:2, Interesting)
many removed, the rest clearly identified. if you ever want to get back in the game, just start from resellerratings.com, bizrate.com, or shopper.cnet.com, and stick to highly-rated sites (a 3-second skim of user comments weeds out any bait-and-switch-fests). regularly saves me 15-30% -- although i do still hit brick-and-mortars for things i'm uncertain of -- since returning to the fly-by-night stores often entails a restocking fee.
froogle is less discerning. it's handy sometimes, but it spiders the scams and good people just the same. if you're cautious...i wouldn't use it.
it's also worth noting that most major brick-and-mortars all over the country now propogate their deals to resellerratings and the like. so if you prefer them, you can stick to ones with actual storefronts.
cheers!
yawn. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:And Fax number (Score:2, Interesting)
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/h0135.
I did the same thing (Score:3, Interesting)
The next time I went by, he actually ran out to his doorway and yelled about how I was ruining in his business and taking food out of his kids mouths. I told him I would buy lunch there more often, but he doesn't take Visa anymore.
Re:How can we persue the owner, not just the store (Score:3, Interesting)
They tried to fuck with me and I beat them back.
Last year they tried to dispute deductions for alimony payments. The deductions were perfectly legit. I had done my homework before making those claims.
I provided all the evidence they asked for, they still disputed. Unfortunately they picked the wrong time to mess with me because I was all fired up from getting ready for my divorce trial. When I got my CPA involved and fired back at their disputes USING THEIR OWN IRS PUBLICATIONS to prove my case, they finally relented with the original tax return unchanged.
This was a case of some auditor who did not know their own system too well. Nothing nasty ever happened, I was lucky to have all my paperwork organized, they had a tiger by the tail, and I can write a very firm and convincing letter. Even my divorce lawyer couldn't believe I got off the hook.
You CAN dispute the IRS if you know what you are doing.
Retailer's president replies (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:My mom's terrible experience with these croooks (Score:2, Interesting)
They have a new policy where they make you cancel your current card and reissue one to you though. That's not a big deal. The last time I had to do this, I found charges to some company (I think it was a porn site?) in the Netherlands. I randomly guessed based on the name in my credit card statement what their domain might be and went there and all they had was a single page telling you that you subscribed to one of their services and gave you a place to contact with customer service questions. I'd never heard of them, used them or got a response from them.
I contacted VISA and they refunded my money again and reissued a new card to me.
I've never had any problems.
Re:let's take down pricerite! (Score:1, Interesting)
I'm going to be gone all weekend from Friday morning until Sunday night, so just maybe I'll set up the system to run the whole time. Let's see, 14G in 8 hours, so over a 52 hour weekend that will be around 91 GB of data pulled off of spamvertised sites. Only thing worrying is that my fiber company may balk a bit or the scam admin looking an logs and start making a fuss (or try their own direct DOS). Oh well, screw them.. they do it to the normal consumer every day anyway.