Mom Makes Website, Gets Sued for $2 Million 842
An anonymous reader writes "A Canadian stay-at-home mom of 3 recently created a website to report on environmental problems around her neighborhood. The general public and governmental workers lauded her for her efforts. The environmental Ministry spokesman was even quoted as saying 'Obviously we can't have staff everywhere all the time, so we depend on the public out there as surrogate eyes and ears for the ministry'. However, not everyone was quite as happy, as she soon found out, when one company decided to sue her for libel to the tune of $2 million."
Her site is already slashdotted (Score:4, Informative)
--davecb
Poor summary (Score:5, Informative)
Legal fee issue not quite true (Score:5, Informative)
Not quite true. Canada has a loser-pays system, so the losing party has to pay the winning party's costs, but it's usually only a portion (depending on the case - if the judge feels the actions by the plaintiff are malicious and without merit, then the losing party will receive most, if not all, of their legal fees paid by the plaintiff).
Thinking of setting up a website? (Score:2, Informative)
While truth is an absolute defense against libel or slander, you don't want it to cost you your life savings to defend against a frivolous lawsuit because you spoke the truth someone didn't want to hear. For the cost of the umbrella policy - typically around $300 per year you can virtually stop any potential frivolous lawsuit. Such lawsuits are designed to intimidate the little guy and you're much less of a little guy when a multi-billion dollar insurance company is the one that is paying to defend you against the suit.
A classic example of... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:This is all good (Score:2, Informative)
The woman pays her lawyer out of pocket. She very likely doesn't have the millions of dollars to spend fighting a lawsuit against a company with very deep pockets. Eventually she cannot afford her lawyer and ends up settling with the company for her silence and perhaps a statement absolving the company. Whether or not her accusations are correct have little to do with the outcome. What matters is if some lawyer, seeing her evidence, is willing to take on the case.
McLibel revisited? (Score:2, Informative)
Of course, if these developers had nothing to worry about, they would have doubtless been able to convince everybody of the truth of their case without recourse to litigation.
Any environmental scientists in Canada with soil sampling equipment who might be prepared to volunteer to go and do some soil analysis to help the defence prepare its case?
Re:I thought... (Score:5, Informative)
Her webpage is here: (Score:1, Informative)
Since she's on geocities and this trounced her bandwidth, I linked the Google cache. Cheers.
Re:Legal fee issue not quite true (Score:2, Informative)
Found the site! (Score:3, Informative)
http://ca.geocities.com/infringements@rogers.com [geocities.com]
of course, its exceeded its transfer alloted for the day, so its down.
Typical. It IS cached by google, though.
Found some info here:
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=ge
Theres some info with contact information for the woman and the company.
Re:A classic example of... (Score:5, Informative)
A more accurate statement would be that `several states have enacted legislation to provide some protection against SLAPP lawsuits'. These laws do not 1) cover the entire US, and 2) do not generally make SLAPP lawsuits illegal. Instead, they change things a little to make it easier to defend against these sorts of lawsuits.
And of course, the woman is in Canada, so US law generally doesn't apply there. (We didn't invade yet, did we?)
Re:Legal fee issue not quite true (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I thought... (Score:5, Informative)
Justification
If a person publishes a statement which lowers the reputation of another, the law presumes the falsity of the statement and the defendant then has the burden of proving the truth of the statement. If it is the truth anyone is free to say it. However, if the plaintiff consents to the statement being made, he/she cannot later argue they have been defamed. Actionable defamation only consists in a false statement impairing ones reputation.
From here, about half way down, under "Canada".
Re:I thought... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Her site is already slashdotted (Score:2, Informative)
Try the google cache.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:zQLM8Fs0lo8J:Why not check out her web site! (Score:3, Informative)
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:zQLM8Fs0lo8J:
ttyl
Farrell
Re:I thought... (Score:5, Informative)
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:zQLM8Fs0lo8J:
Google's cache of her geocities page!
Active Contact Info -- Let's Fight Back (Score:2, Informative)
Name Werner Brummund
Job Title President / CEO
Postal Address Activa Group 735 Bridge Street West Waterloo ON N2V 2H1 Canada
Phone 5198869400
Fax 5198868955
Email kyantz@gto.net
why not say hello to the weasel lawyers? (Score:1, Informative)
maybe mention that they just got their clients north american coverage for their mis-deeds! that wasn't very smal.. uh?
Re:Not if it will hurt their bottom line to fix it (Score:1, Informative)
Re:I thought... (Score:2, Informative)
In the US at least, a libel case requires a few things:
1) The statements must be false
2) They must be conveyed to a third party
3) They must be damaging
4) The statements must be shown to be the product of malice
I believe it is the responsibility of the entity initiating the suit to show a preponderance of evidence for each of these.
I imagine Canadian law would be similar.
An unspeakable outrage! (Score:5, Informative)
From the site:
"I saw a suspicious looking diesel tank. I took a closer look and saw it was intentionally supported on a pile of scrap wood on a tilt. That's when I noticed the rubber hose. The hose was being used to syphon the diesel fuel and below it was evidence of a spill. The area smelled strong and the ground was saturated."
So, essentially, she had a nice suburban neighborhood and then somebody came in and dumped a tanker of diesel fuel all over the place. Yeah, I'd be pissed, too, if that happened on my street. I'd be demanding a cleanup.
And:
I saw many unharnessed roofers and dozens of workers without hard hats actively working on site. This one unharnessed roofer was quite a site to see. The yellow cable in the roof photos is the extention cord for the nail gun this fella was using while working on a roof of the house at 23 Big Springs Court. He squatted down on the wood of the roof and slid down it like a slide.
Now, this is probably not her business. But still, this speaks of massive unprofessionalism. Some guys may be too macho to use safety harnesses, but every site I've ever been on required hard hats *everywhere*, even with nothing overhead. I don't know how things are regulated in Canada, but here in the USA that sounds like tens of thousands of dollars in OSHA fines, just for starters. Still other reports seem kind of iffy. Empty beer bottles can be left by any passing gaggle of kids - pictures of workers on the job in the daytime with the bottles in their hands would have been more damning.
It looks like she might have had pictures, but they're not coming up in the Google cache. Pity, as even a photo or two would confirm this. I pray for her sake that this gets the throwing out of court that it most probably deserves. As for Activa Holdings, stupid move. Before, they had one website bad-mouthing them, now they've got half of Slashdot.
Brutal (Score:5, Informative)
I guess the important thing to do is follow up on this story. Write, phone, fax or email the CEO of Activa Group, Werner Brummund at:
Activa Group
735 Bridge Street West
Waterloo ON
N2V 2H1
Canada
Phone 5198869400
Fax 5198868955
Email kyantz@gto.net
Send letters and emails of support and/or financial support to:
Louisette Lanteigne,
700 Star Flower Ave,
Waterloo Ont.
N2V 2L2
Canada
butterflybluelu@rogers.com
We should spread the word about this, the more people who know about this David and Goliath fight, the better. The worst thing we can do is just shake our heads in pity and forget about this whole thing.
Btw: what materials does Activa Group sell?
No Surprise (Score:5, Informative)
The 'Award Winning' company that built my townhouse in Burnaby BC
They knowingly built my whole complex below code. You can not get a queen sized mattress to the top floor going up the stairs, they are too narrow (yes, this is a building code they ignored). In fact some of the original owners here forced Adera to buy special two-piece mattress sets.
Then there's the brutal water heating system. They knew damn well that once the place had sold out, the water heater system would be totally inadequate and prone to breakdowns, forcing our strata to look into a Boiler system.
Then there's the creaky floors due to various other codes being ignored, such as distance between the stringers, and the methods of tying down the floor.
Then there's the fact that every damn outlet in the house is crooked, the builders couldnt take 2 seconds to level them, not even the ones cut through tiles!
And how about the severe cracking in the cement foundation in part of our underground parking.
And the insufficient gutters and downspouts, built below code, that overflow in a heavy rain.
And there's the landscaping that has been eroding away due to poor construction, one person has pretty much lost their back yard.
Our building is only 6 or 7 years old. These are just the bigger problems
I wish the lady luck, take down those bastards
Re:I thought... (Score:1, Informative)
Local HBA:Waterloo Region
Company:Activa Holdings Inc.
Phone:(519) 886-9400 Ext.104
Categories:Home Builder
Taken from
http://www.chba.ca/FindMembers/details.php?Compan
Re:I thought... (Score:3, Informative)
What Canada needs is a First Amendment and a few "activist judges" to interpret and enforce it. Capitalism vs. socialism has nothing to do with this.
Re:I thought... (Score:3, Informative)
... and images (Score:5, Informative)
Re:She has a lot to lose (Score:5, Informative)
So I'd say she's valuing the well-being of her kids and those around her here, especially given the number of such cases detailed on her site.
Re:I thought... (Score:3, Informative)
I sure hope not. Malice is only a requirement if the plaintiff is a celebrity or public official. Also, falsity is not necessarily an element of libel, although truth is a defense.
Unfortunately for this woman, she'll have to prove that her statements were true, otherwise, she will probably lose.
Re:Mod parent up. (Score:3, Informative)
Too many people assume that all countries have the same laws. In some countries, truth is NOT a defence. If in truth you are a thieving, acne-scarred, malodorous butt-pirate and I call you one in a public forum, all you have to do is prove that your reputation has been hurt, not that it isn't true.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation [wikipedia.org]
A letter from the woman being sued (Score:4, Informative)
------ Thanks so much! I have a pretty strong case of defence at my end including many letters of thanks from the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Labour. To want to sue me for $2,000,000 is just a way of "SLAPPing me." "SLAPP" stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation". SLAPPs are legal actions (usually defamation actions) launched for the primary purpose of shutting down criticism, and without a strong cause of action. The plaintiff's goal in a SLAPP is not to win the lawsuit, but is rather to silence a critic by instilling fear of large legal costs and the spectre of large damage awards. Despite their right to free speech, critics may be frightened into silence e.g., taking down websites or comments made on line - if they are threatened with a defamation-based SLAPP. This method will not work with me. I've got way to much evidence at my end. I could actually counter sue for what I have been through so we'll see what happens. Either way, I'm glad it's out there in the media. Folks really need to know. With letters like yours it's great to know the message is getting out there. Thanks for your support! Louisette Lanteigne Waterloo Ont. -----
Re:Alarmist (Score:2, Informative)
copy of letter by louisette (google cache) (Score:3, Informative)
is hosted is overloaded. so i made a copy of the google cache, here:
http://hands.com/~lkcl/activa.holdings.report.by.
Re:No Surprise (Score:3, Informative)
I work in the industry as an architectural specifier. Bulk of my work in the last few years has been residential. The nature of the economy, both Canadian and American (I've worked in both) is such that it's a solid monetary investment for a venture capitalist. The return, while notspectacular, is better, and more stable, then investing in stock. Classis real estate/stock investing economic cycle. The result is a SHITLOAD of developers, who have very little understanding of architecture, or civic pride, or idea of a working neighbourhood, or anything else, really. Monetary bottom line the only measuring stick.
Thus, residential architecture has really become a beast of the profession.
In commercail, retail, industrial, educational architecture we have standards. Quality assurance is followed, when it comes to material quality, construction standards, installation procedures and so on.
One of the last projects I worked on (8 storey condo in Brooklyn) durring the meeting, it kind of became obvious that it was pointless for me to prepare documents regarding site protection, excavation, environment protection, when the owner already has dug out the site and was pouring the foundation based on architect's design documents!!! (as opposed to construction documents) what can you do?
For example, in the meeting, the decision was made regarding wood flooring. Instead of using sleepers and sound attinuation underlayment underneath the flooring, the owner has decided to glue the wood straight down to concrete. The buyers will never be able to tell anyways, so who cares? I've seen hundreds of such examples on any residential projects I've been involved in.
Profession of Architecture is mostly a self regulating field, and it works just fine. The only governmental involvent is in regards to life safety (building code) and environmental protection. The passion for profit (developer) greatly outweights architect's code of conduct (owerworked, underpaid).
I had the misfortune of living in the city mentioned in the story (Waterloo, Ontario) The developments in question are in the area that were all corn fields not too many years ago. The cardboard boxes...err...houses came up at an alarming rate, and I guess the area is still being developed. For these types of structures, an architect is not even required. (under 5000 sq/feet less then 3 storey, Ontario Building Code, if I remember correctly). The fact that the developers are not too on top of environmental laws, is just an underlying symptom of a much larger problem. Our cities, our neighbourhoods, our lives are designed and managed by incompetent types.
Chaos theory at it's finest. Let's hope for HAPPY mistakes.
Well, at least she doesn't have to worry too much (Score:2, Informative)
Details on Activa Holdings (Score:3, Informative)
Activa Holdings Inc.
(519) 886-9400 Ext.104
Other contact information for the company interesting enough located a couple km away from RIM
Activa Holdings Inc.
Peter Armbruster
735 Bridge St. W
Waterloo, ON
N2V 2H1
(519) 886-9400
www.activagroup.ca
The web site appears to be inactive. The WHOIS contact is Werner Brummund, kyantz@gto.net and fax number is 5198868955
It would also be interesting to know which firms invest in Activa Holdings, as I'm sure investors would like to know how their capital is being used to bully residents in Kitchener/Waterloo Ontario.
Re:I thought... (Score:4, Informative)
Quote from her "Unless I see an injunction from a judge, this website stays"
2million dollars isn't really all that strange... when it comes to lawsuits, lawyers always follow the "Shoot for the moon, at least if you miss you will land among the stars" philosophy...
2million dollars also has a large scare factor attached to it, i'm sure activa don't want to go to court and would happily drop the lawsuit if she shuts down the site (and she is much more likely to do so if she is afraid of going bankrupt)
While i agree that she should be allowed to post any pictures and facts she wants, the problem exists that this is not all she is doing, she is also making wild assumptions and stating them as fact in her comments when she has little to no proof
Eastforest Homes could successfully sue her for libel over this comment, She has no proof that they were:
Having seen the site. i wouldn't want to go to court if i was her.... she isn't likely to win...
Re:Alarmist (Score:2, Informative)
Did you read your link?
Use-Site Precautions:
* All sawdust and construction debris should be cleaned up and disposed of after construction.
She has suggested that debris was left lying in puddles that children were playing in
from dangerous chemicals - "I have seen kids playing in a stagnant pond of water that was 4ft deep. It was filled with building debris including paint cans, fiberglass insulation, pressure treated wood, oil residue and tadpoles." "Parents should be aware that Pressure Treated wood is not safe. It contains many chemicals including arsenic and it's a known carcinogen."
* Treated wood should not be used where it may come into direct or indirect contact with drinking water, except for uses involving incidental contact such as docks and bridges.
From the website being sued
Contamination of groundwater - "Our moraine provides 300,000 people with ground source drinking water. We're the largest region in North America dependant on ground water. This moraine is one of the major sources for the Grand River and that is the only source of drinking water for Brantford, Brent County and Six Nations."
Re:Simple really (Score:3, Informative)
It's not that simple. If she wrote something along the lines of "I saw construction workers dumping gasoline on the ground," she might have a hard time defending herself against a libel charge unless she happened to get documentary evidence or has witnesses.
I lost in court last year defending myself against a traffic ticket for "failure to yield," simply because I had no witnesses to testify that the lady who hit me had, in fact, run a red light. The cop who cited me lied on the stand, refuting my account of how the light at that intersection behaved (long story short, he said *none* of the lights in the city he had worked in for 11 years behaved the way I described, although it was fairly well-known that they did, and I took a picture of that intersection doing what he said it couldn't do the very next day). If you have no witnesses or documentation, the truth won't necessarily help you.
"Fair" is a relative term (Score:3, Informative)
In this case, the compelling story is that a mother-of-three is doing this to protect her children against a faceless, insensitive and obnoxious corporation. It plays to our desires to root for the underdog. We can all see ourselves in that situation: a lone voice in the wilderness crying out for solace.
In this case, our libel laws are not very forgiving. The burden of proof is set pretty high. Not impossibly so, but perhaps more difficult than an individual could accomodate without becoming some sort of crucading private investigator.
Now, let's take another scenario. An unrelated, fictional woman has an axe to grind over a local construction company based on some imagined slight (say, she thinks they go to work too early in the morning and mess up her sleep). She then engages in a campaign of deliberate misinformation using plausable but falsified events. In this case, the libel laws are quite GOOD, because it puts the burden of proof on the potential libeler to back up their words with proof, and god only knows what kind of damage could be done by one disgruntled and motivated nutcase.
Personally, I think that libel laws SHOULD put the burden on the person making the statements, but there should be increased protection of the little guy 'whistleblower' from being intimidated away from speaking out in protest when its due. An anti-SLAPP style law would go a long way to resolve that weakness.
Either way, it's premature to judge Canada's (really, british common law's) approach as 'inferior' because of one anecdote where the law isn't supportive of the little guy over big business. After all, the same protection extends to the woman in the event this company tried to railroad HER.
Re:I thought... (Score:2, Informative)
He was running for the train, for all we know he was just late, or afraid of the crazy white people with guns but no uniforms.
The had subdued him and had him pinned to the ground. They then put 8-9 rounds in his head just in case he had a bomb with a dead mans switch (these are the words of the head of whatever agency was responsible) possibly the stupidest excuse I have ever heard. They are lucky he didn't have a bomb as they would have been killed when they killed him. Frankly I think they deserve to be strung up (or executed in the same manner) for this.