French Riots Lead to Crackdown on Blogs 1020
Browncoat writes "Wired reports that because of the recent riots in France, authorities have shut down a blog called Hardcore, whose participants have allegedly violating a French law concerning violent speech. Many bloggers fear there will be consequences for them if they are outspoken, even if it is in a nonviolent way. From the article: 'Ahmed Meguinia, a political activist who saw some of the Paris region's hardest-hit areas during the past week, said many bloggers feared prosecution for publishing even nonviolent content. While not condoning blogs that incited violence, he said that there was a lack of media coverage explaining why ethnically segregated inhabitants of some of France's poorest cities have been driven to riot. Instead, the world repeatedly sees CNN images of burning cars and shops, he said.'"
Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Funny)
Truth is, I don't stand a chance. It's something that your born into and I just don't belong.
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not the cause of the trouble, however.
An all-pervasive nanny state which results in huge unemployment and no hope for advancement, A French elite mentality that Africans are sub-human, and endless dicking around with muliticultiralism which has allowed the formation of an African state within France, have given the results seen for the last two weeks.
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, you are completely wrong. People are not "told" where to live. Those buildings are owned by the gouvernment, but they are rented for a very cheap price to families who would not be able to afford to rent a place otherwise. Many people chose and applied for going to those buildings in the 60's. With the 70's/80's immigration waves, those rental places were still rented to the ones who could not afford lodging otherwise, that is, the immigrants.
What you think is scary in many ways and shows that all you know about the situation comes from CNN and Fox news where the reality is VERY distorted. Fox news is so shockingly out of context that it definitely is anti-french propaganda rather than "news".
Oh, and a last thing: you mix up african and north-african (arabic) culture. The vast majority of post-immigrants are from an arabic culture, and are not africans. So, you really have no idea what you are talking about and thus, I suggest you just shut up.
The non-sense on american television spreads on slashdot as usual. People, put your nose out and go visit your neighbours. Thank you.
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Interesting)
They are from the African continent, are they not? Or am I not "American" because I have fair skin and speak neither Spanish nor Portugese? Are people in the United States and Canada "European?"
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.juancole.com/2005/11/problem-with-frenc hness-readers-have.html [juancole.com]
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole division of ethnicies comes into the North-South conflict in places like Sudan (that is not merely a religious division, but ethnic - non-Arab and Arab/Arabicized).
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Interesting)
This is a somewhat subjective issure. The fact of the matter is that the people in question are africans (or north Africans, if you prefer), and the parent was only trying to say that they are treated as second citizens in France. From what I understand this is the case. You'll find a similar attitude in Europe against Turks. I'll never understand why so many people have a problem with poor immigrants moving into their country
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:4, Interesting)
Um, because when government spends a dollar, it must take that dollar from a taxpayer, preventing him from spending the dollar himself. You can argue that the government will spend the dollar in a more beneficial manner than the taxpayer would have, but that government spending crowds out the private sector is practically a tautology.
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:4, Insightful)
So, in your own words, these people have no choice. They are told where to live. Those who have a choice, live elsewhere.
What you think is scary in many ways and shows that all you know about the situation comes from CNN and Fox news where the reality is VERY distorted. Fox news is so shockingly out of context that it definitely is anti-french propaganda rather than "news".
I have not watched CNN or Fox for about 10 years now. My knowledge of the situation comes from working in France, and interacting with French Arabs, and also from working in Black Africa. Too bad an alternate point of view "scares" you. Boo hoo.
Oh, and a last thing: you mix up african and north-african (arabic) culture. The vast majority of post-immigrants are from an arabic culture, and are not africans. So, you really have no idea what you are talking about and thus, I suggest you just shut up.
No, you are aparently unable to realize that both Black africans and North africans (Arabs) are involved in the rioting. Africa has more than just two cultures by the way,
the Arabs and the Blacks each have many, many different customs based on individual tribal traditions. Your simplistic lumping into two heaps is amusing.
The non-sense on american television spreads on slashdot as usual. People, put your nose out and go visit your neighbours. Thank you.
Does anyone get their news from TV these days? How primitive. I've visited my neighbours in Africa, in France, and in America. Have you?
You take no issue with my original points about the nanny-state, lack of jobs, and Elitist racism. There may be hope for you yet.
It's not just France, then... (Score:4, Insightful)
I will have to discount the "nanny-state" part, because everything else you've said perfectly describes the race ghettos of the United States. No jobs, check. Entrenched racism, check. The US Government "telling" people where to live through economics....check (although I feel this point in particular is nothing more than a semantic game).
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Interesting)
So, in your own words, these people have no choice. They are told where to live. Those who have a choice, live elsewhere.
Really? If the government provides low-cost housing, it is "forcing" people to live there? What rubbish. In your original post you said "they live where they are told", which is clearly not true, and is what the grandparent was responding to. But it seems you have no respect for the facts.
What happens when a city/country has 30% turnover? (Score:5, Insightful)
Denmark has had really severe problems with that, but so far the groups fight eachother. None of the European countries have faced up to the transmigration problem and still handle them and immigrants alike under antiquated immigration laws designed to handle a slow trickle of individuals back in the 1950's. No system is really in place to get the people new job skills for those that need it, proper language skills, and an acceptance or appreciation of existing values and mores.
As a result, you get situations like in the Netherlands where each of the 4 largest cities in the country have a first generation immigrant/transmigration populations of over 40% each. Or in Malmö, Sweden where Swedes are now the single largest ethnic minority, even counting second generation immigrants/transmigrants as Swedes, regardless of assimilation.
There is also the problem of double standards. Any questioning or criticism of the system results in personal verbal attacks and accusations of intolerance. Any criticism of the behaviour of the new comers is likewise attacked with accusations of intolerance and racism. In contrast, newcomers can get away with statements and actions that would put a 'native' in serious legal trouble, resulting in jail or fines. That has to stop and the reality of the situation be looked at as well as the intended goals.
How does importing 5 million transmigrants into a country of 5 million or even 60 million help the situation for either the people (both new and old) in the new country or those left in the country they have escaped from? We all know what happens to a business if there is high turn over, what about whole cities or countries?
Re:What happens when a city/country has 30% turnov (Score:4, Insightful)
Asians never seem to need assistance from the "state" nor do Eastern European immigrants. They adopt and are often the most successful members of society.
Re:What happens when a city/country has 30% turnov (Score:5, Informative)
The perception of the "man in the street" and several national newspapers here in the UK is that Asians and Eastern Europeans are *entirely* reliant on the state. This is not of course true, but is about as valid a viewpoint as yours.
Re:What happens when a city/country has 30% turnov (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the situation in North America, where many poor Mexicans sneak across the US border in a desperate bid to find prosperity and many USians sneak across the Canadian border in a desperate bid to find freedom.
Re:What happens when a city/country has 30% turnov (Score:3, Informative)
many USians sneak across the Canadian border in a desperate bid to find freedom.
Speaking as an American, I go to Canada for the beer.
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:4, Insightful)
In the US if you are born in the US you are an American citizen. In much of the EU that even if your father and mother where born in that country and you where born in that country you are still not a citizen! I don't know what the status in France is for people from North Africa since those where at one time French colonies.
As too which system is better? It is hard to come to the US to work. But it is easier to be a citizen. I like the US system but to each their own.
The you put racism into the mix. One of the great myths is that Europe is more racially tolerant than the US. I think this rioting show that is not true. Europe is only now having to deal with racial diversity. It is easy to be tolerant when your minority population is tiny. It takes a lot of hard work and soul searching when the minorities get large enough to form sub cultures. I do think it is worth the effort but that is a US point of view.
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent is Wrong (Score:5, Informative)
Until about a decade ago most EU countries gave you nationality/citizenship if you were born in that country, regardless of parents nationality etc. Definitely the UK was like that until quite recently. France certainly doesn't have that rule at least since early nineties - in practice most children of immigrants got french citizenship, but the right wasn't automatic.
Now citizenship cannot be acquired automatically through birth in any EU country. Ireland was the last to get rid of the right one or two years ago. Apparently since they were the only country in the EU to still have it, and since it's now pretty easy to travel anywhere in the EU if you have residence rights in one EU country, they were finding that lots of pregnant mothers were coming to Ireland specifically give birth and obtain EU-country citizenship for their child.
This definitely applies to the 15 'old EU' members, but i would imagine that the new member states have come in line with this since joining.
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Interesting)
My most shocking moment was when I went back home for a summer and I was sitting down chatting with my mother's neighbor, half watching some kind of Spanish soap opera. In any case, the show portrayed some African slaves to which the neighbor commented how the slave
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Insightful)
In any case, the show portrayed some African slaves to which the neighbor commented how the slave features resembled those of monkeys. I was shocked. You'd never hear something like in US (at least I hope not).
If you did hear something like that in the US you'd be utterly demonized by the mainstream and most decent people. Careers have been destroyed [wikipedia.org] over a lot less then that over here.
On the other side of the coin, I can get a permit for a KKK rally in Central Park. In France that wouldn't be allowed
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Insightful)
Based on your statements, I strongly suspect you've never spent any real time in the U.S., or perhaps only in a tiny microcosm within it. There are so many cultures and sub-cultures in this country you'd really need a scorecard to keep track. In my local area alone (central Pennsylvania) there are several distinct cultures I come into contact with on a routine basis, including the stereotypical big-pickup-truck-driving, deer-hun
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, Beverly Hills is not ethnically segregated -- it is segregated by wealth. It happens to be that there is a correlation between race and extreme wealth, which is why there are fewer minorities in Beverly Hills.
At the lower end of the income spectrum, there is a lot more diversity of ethnicity, both here in the US and in France. If you look at neighborhhods inhabited by the poor, they do tend to segregate themselves by ethnicity -- people live where they can communicate with their supers, their neighbors, and the people working at shops and restaurants locally. Shared language is a big part of it, shared culture the other.
But if you look at historical segregation in the US, it was initially not a legal issue -- people segregated by choice. And yet it became a huge problem, because of ethnic discrimination, and because of inequal access to public resources (such as police protection, education, transportation, etc). And the fact of the matter remains, that much of the US is still segregated -- yet not formally, and (hopefully) less so every year. However, there is public awareness of the issue, and lots of people working to ensure that public resources are distributed fairly across ethnically segregated localities, and to make sure that public institutions are not segregated.
A lot of areas in France are segregated, though not by legal decree. This is not a problem. The problem is that there is the perception among some people that they are not getting an equitable share of public resources. This is often enabled by segregation, since it's just a matter of reduced funding for public programs in certain areas.
Whether it's intentional racism or not, whether people were segregated by force or by choice, doesn't matter. What matters is that government take the responsibilty that resources are NOT allocated inequitably by race.
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, it's not. Plenty of rich African Americans there. I can't tell their religion from merely looking at them, of course, but I see no reason to believe why there is no higher or lower percentage of Muslims among them. I think having Cosby or Denzel as your neighbor _raises_ your property value there.
Upper West Side of Manhattan, different story. If the entire first string of the Knicks announced they were moving into the apartment upstairs your Co-op board would suddenly pass a law forbidding anyone taller than 6'3" from owning an apartment there due to "Post 9/11 fire safety issues."
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Ethnically segregated? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:From the land of "let them eat cake" (Score:5, Informative)
What do I mean by that? The French implement the opposite of affirmative-action type policies; all of their policies are designed to be completely color-blind. The net effect of this, however, is that someone with an african-sounding name with the same qualifications has been show to be a fraction as likely to get the same job as someone with a traditional French-sounding name. This refusal to look at their multiculturalism in the assumption that everything will just work out fine if you ignore it is the fundamental problem.
Also, to attack some of the major myths underlying many people's arguments on here: these are hardly muslim radicals. Most of them, like most French, are not very religious. Most of them don't speak any arabic or any languages other than French. However, their French often isn't mainstream either - there is a "Beur" culture which is sort of the equivalent of American hip-hop culture. They're not immigrants, but the children of immigrants; they're as French as Jennifer Lopez is American. France simply isn't filled with some sort of "pure race"; even the Minister of the Interior is the son of immigrants.
Before y'all get TOO worked up... (Score:5, Insightful)
If some American blog advocated setting fire to police stations and lynching Dick & George, it would also be "cracked down" upon.
Let's not get all hypocritical here.
Guess you don't read the hard leftist sites... (Score:5, Informative)
Just go visit Democrat Underground [democratic...ground.com] or Daily Kos [thedailykos.com]. You will find many articles that discuss violence against authority and the death of our President and Vice President. Heck Air America Radio between fundraising breaks and stealing money from poor children [washingtontimes.com] has had several commentators advocate the assassination [worldnetdaily.com] of our President.
I am always amazed at the shouts from the left that they are being "oppressed" in this country. I am going practically deaf from their oppression. Its like a Monty Python sketch. If you want to see truly speech oppressive societies, just look at Europe and their numerous speech codes/laws.
Oh for God's sake. (Score:3, Informative)
The parent post was not saying one group is better then any other. He was using Kos and Democrat underground as an example of the fact we do not have the kind of speech codes that exist in europe. You want to include Freerepublic in that list? Fine, be my guest. You only bolster his point.
I am sick and damn tired of kneejerk rebuttles from partisans, when they aren't even being attacked. (And yes, I am a partisan too.) Ease up
Re:Before y'all get TOO worked up... (Score:5, Insightful)
If muslims were rioting in the suburbs of washington, and some bloggers were advocating it, they probably would be in the same boat.
Exactly the problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course, you cannot coordinate attacks on CNN, but shutting down blogs will be not only ineffective but counterproductive. A well-informed security service would be monitoring the blogs and spiking them with false info to make arrests.
OK, I'd prefer those who do the wrong thing to be stupid rather than clever...
Why riots? Labor laws (Score:5, Interesting)
France may be a worker's paradise, but only if you if have a job.
Re:Why riots? Labor laws (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Why riots? Labor laws (Score:5, Funny)
God I like being a Communist !
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why riots? Labor laws (Score:3, Interesting)
"Driven" to riot? (Score:5, Insightful)
Many ( but centainly not all) of these rioters are racists. The difference between them and other disillusioned youths in their North African homecountries is that they're living close enough to the hated group to actually attack them, in this case their property and the police.
Re:"Driven" to riot? (Score:5, Insightful)
But they were. By an increasingly burdensome, intrusive government presence in their lives. The British wanted to tax people without representation (note that the Fench citizens in question, whether they're rioting or not, can vote), the British routinely stationed troops in people's houses (as opposed to the French ghetto-burbs, where the French police and rescue workers have been afraid, for years, to go because they are routinely ambushed by the thugs that have set up shop there), etc.
On one hand you've got colonists living, working, and risking it all to set up shop under circumstances that are being continually (and sometimes brutally) altered by the parent country. On the other hand you've got people who leave their own country and travel to another country to live in a place where the social structure, economy, laws and current events are plainly known. They choose to have children there, all the while maintaining that their own culture is preferrable to their new host culture (in most cases, choosing not to vote, not to learn the local language, etc) and then bitching when that already-sick local socialist economy doesn't provide them with what they've realized (upon leaving their own much more miserable country and living next to people who've built a long-standing, considerably more prosperous country) they want - even if they don't offer, as they arrive in the country, the skills and work ethic that would improve (rather than drain) that economy.
Pah.
Re:"Driven" to riot? (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, but not the parent's point, I think. His tone (correctly, I think) implies "rationally driven," as in, having no choice in the pursuit of an objectively rational goal. There are things (like lethal self defense) that can be objectively viewed as the only response to aggression (something one is thus "driven" to do). There are other "drivers" to action, but not all are morally equivalent. Be careful of moral relativism, here - not all goals are equally valid.
Osama...who can say what his purpose was?
No need to wonder! He and his buddies loudly repeat their goals on a regular basis. That entire movement is focused the re-establishment of, as a start, a pan-Arab caliphate spanning all of the regions once conquered/held by Islam. That would include, of course, places like Spain, and certainly all of the middle east. They want to see those places all ruled by a fundamentalist Islamist theocracy, and they say so on a regular basis - both in word and deed (see their mercifully aborted warm-up act in Taliban-ruled Afghanistan). Their aspirations, of course, include the widening of that influence across the globe. Their vision provides for this taking generations, and they're willing to do anything it takes. That's what it driving Osama, from the horse's mouth.
an abused wife getting out of her abusive relationship the only way she knows how
Funny you should cite that particular example. Reviewing, again, a social setting functioning exactly as the Taliban and their al Queda buddies wanted it, you got spectacles like women being taken to the (former) soccer field in Karachi and shot in front of a crowd at lunchtime for... that's right!... not being dressed correctly. Or for teaching her daughters to read and write. Or for trying to work to buy food since her husband was already murdered for, say, playing music outside. You can't make this stuff up... but it's exactly in line with the extremist culture that is radicalizing bored/cranky teenage Muslims throughout Europe. "Driven" indeed... but by theocratic, mysoginsitic, mideival-minded, superstitious bastards that want to set the clock back a few centuries to a (for them) romanticized set of circumstances that are, objectively, evil. I'm always a little perplexed by people that would let that world-view off the hook and attempt to dispassionately evaluate and equivocate over what's "driving" uncivilized, brutal, murderous behavior. Just ask them! They're happy to explain it, and if you don't sign on, you're an infidel dog.
All's not lost, though. Did you notice the Jordanian protests against Zarqawi today? There are rational people in that part of the world, and they just need help dealing with the people that consider democracy evil (i.e., bin Laden and his local Iraqi franchise operator, Zarqawi).
In the USA too (Score:3, Informative)
Re:In the USA too (Score:3, Insightful)
Cease and decist letters are all it takes.
There's a lot more censorship in the USA than in Europe - except there it's corporate driven and americans like to pretend that it doesn't exist.
Somehow (Score:3, Funny)
The most loaded rhetorical question ever? (Score:5, Insightful)
>>he said that there was a lack of media coverage explaining why ethnically segregated inhabitants of some of France's poorest cities have been driven to riot.
>>lack of media coverage explaining
No doubt. From the media, one would think it was just random collections of poor "youth" on a little spree, releasing youthful energy by burning a car or two (thousand). The reality is that it's a well-defined group of people which I'll get to in a moment.
>>ethnically segregated inhabitants
Do you mean the "muslim immigrants (many of whom are illegal aliens), primarily male aged 14-26, who, by choice, are poorly integrated into France's culture (read: hates France, doesn't speak French, disdain for Europeans, etc.) and thus more likely to be unemployed (and living off of France's generous welfare system, placing a burden on the French)?" It's hard to tell, with all those PC buzzwords in the media.
Look, it's what happens when a culture doesn't insist that immigrants conform. They hate their host country and are using this as an excuse to terrorize, burn, loot, and generally express their disdain and hatred for France.
Anything else I can clear up for you?
Bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The most loaded rhetorical question ever? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually... my take on this is somewhat different. At least from what I know about early French colonial practices... they were very accepting of immigrants, as long as those immigrants totally disavowed their original culture and 'became French'. I imagine this group rioting are people who did not want to totally lose their original culture, and therefore have been alienated by the cultural elitist French society
I contras
Re:The most loaded rhetorical question ever? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, right. Because if you don't speak the native language, hate the natives (and all Europe) and alienate yourself in small groups of people like you, it's the fault of the other people if you can't get a nice job.
Most of this people choose (for religiuos, ethnical, cultural and whatnot beliefs) not to integrate and decided to create sub-societies. What are they doing in France, living from its welfare system, if they hate it so much?
Re:The most loaded rhetorical question ever? (Score:3, Informative)
No, actually it's what happens when a culture tries to FORCE its immigrants to conform, to such an extent that they are not allowed to freely engage in aspects of their native culture. Humans don't like being told they have to conform. They rebel.
Within American culture we have Jewish-Americans, Latin-Americans, African-Americans, and so forth. Our cultural groups don't always get along smoothly, but they all enjoy equal freedo
Re:The most loaded rhetorical question ever? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would imagine that you can also speak English and have a decent education. I do not know that immigrants to the US were ever required to give up their culture in order to work in the US. Immigrants should be expected to learn about American customs, speak English, and learn how to drive in the US (if they drive); this is not giving up one's own culture.
Most likely you've never experienced true poverty so don't come judging here. I don't condone of the way they're expressing their dissatisfaction but I don't discount their feelings as frivolous and wrong.
From what I understand, the French government is providing them with housing and medical care and giving them welfare money -- this does not sound like true poverty to me. Just because their feelings are hurt does not in any way excuse the destruction, injuries, and possibly death that they are causing.
Vive la France! (Score:4, Funny)
And they leave out the most unforgivable crime: posting a page written exclusively non-French. But they let Roman Polanski, a convicted child rapist, to run around their enlightened nation.
Re:Vive la France! (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, that doesn't explain why he wasn't arrested and tried in France. But at least let's stick to the facts, OK? Everyone deserves to be treated fairly, even an alleged child abuser (although whet
Civil Disorder in Paris (Score:5, Funny)
They should have built a Coliseum before the city hit population 5 then made a bee line for Monotheism to build a cathedral. At the very least, they could have turned a citizen or two into an elvis as a stop gap emergency measure.
Pah. French AI's a joke.
(It's a joke, I think the real situation is horrible.)
Choice Doublespeak (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Choice Doublespeak (Score:5, Insightful)
Truer words have seldom been posted here... except that part about history's great civilizations, of course
Think of how many violent acts are carried out here in the USA because someone was "driven" to it? People seem to be "driven" by everything these days; alcohol, work stress, abusive parents, rap music, video games... everything except the most important element: CHARACTER FLAWS.
Maybe if people stopped blaming society for all of their personal shortcomings, we'd be able to fix some of our problems. Until that happens, though, prepare yourself for more of the same.
Why? I see this as Cultural... (Score:5, Insightful)
What you have are immigrant population from French colonies in North Africa (who happen to be of middle-eastern and african descent) who have entered France through their weaker immigration laws [brook.edu]. The French are traditionally very nationalistic (see their Language boards), and the immigrants were discriminated against [bbc.co.uk] and were not assimilated into mainstream cultures. Secondly, the middle-eastern culture itself is very prideful, mainly becase of their religious practices and family customs. The net result was that the immigrants self-segretated themselves into comminities of like-minded peoples.
So, the dominant european ethnics (through prejudice) resisted their assimilation, which had the net result of limiting the earning potential of the middle-eastern ethnics. The immigrants resist learning the French language and culture, and because of French law, are denied representation in their governments. When the government does try to "help" them with social programs, their culture see it as insulting / condescending. The net result of this is a hatred of a government that is constantly trying to patronize them and force them to give up their heritage.
So, these neighborhoods tend to have less governmental police prescence than other suburbs of Paris, which tends to lead to more criminal elements. It had gotten so bad, representatives of the federal government of France were claiming that they would "clean up the scum", which didn't go so well with the locals. In the latest chain of events [aljazeera.net], there were two youths who were fleeing police, hid in a utility station and accidentally electrocuted themselves. The immigrant cultures see this as police brutality & oppression, something denied by the authorities.
Finally, there are now criminal elemnts in the immigrant culture that are rising up and causing damage around the suburbs, fighting their "battle" against the government for making them the way they are... Yet, these people do not see that a share of that responsibility is theirs.
Re:Why? I see this as Cultural... (Score:5, Informative)
I live in France and know pretty well the psychology of these people, it's not complicated at all, sorry, it's actually pretty simple.
What you have are immigrant population from French colonies in North Africa who have entered France through their weaker immigration laws
Actually, France needed cheap labor at the time, and promised them work and home. So they came. Reality was hard work and cheap home.
The French are traditionally very nationalistic, and the immigrants were discriminated against and were not assimilated into mainstream cultures. Secondly, the middle-eastern culture itself is very prideful, mainly becase of their religious practices and family customs. The net result was that the immigrants self-segretated themselves into comminities of like-minded peoples
Nonsense. These people, with their hard work (far from their work location), just had no time to do anything other than work. When you're exhausted, it's way harder to integrate yourself (learn the language or educate your children). Immigrants were not self-segregated, they were all put together in the same cheap apartments.
So, the dominant european ethnics (through prejudice) resisted their assimilation, which had the net result of limiting the earning potential of the middle-eastern ethnics
Still true today.
The immigrants resist learning the French language and culture, and because of French law, are denied representation in their governments
Nothing to do with the law, it's a false secret, but access to high education is greatly influenced by where you live, which is greatly influenced by your income. It's nothing like the USA here in France, even for jobs and how they are paid.
When the government does try to "help" them with social programs, their culture see it as insulting / condescending
That's not true. They ask for more.
The net result of this is a hatred of a government that is constantly trying to patronize them and force them to give up their heritage
This is completely wrong. They have no more hatred for our government than other citizen. The problems are well known and here, it is the police forces. See the movie "La Haine" to have a good vision of what the problem is with some police forces (think Rodney King).
So, these neighborhoods tend to have less governmental police prescence than other suburbs of Paris, which tends to lead to more criminal elements
Not true either. Number of police force is dependant on your wealth and popularity (so, given what I said above, where you live).
It had gotten so bad, representatives of the federal government of France were claiming that they would "clean up the scum", which didn't go so well with the locals. In the latest chain of events, there were two youths who were fleeing police, hid in a utility station and accidentally electrocuted themselves. The immigrant cultures see this as police brutality & oppression, something denied by the authorities.
Don't know what USA TV relay, but this is all backwards and partly false.
Everything started when 2 youths died in an utility station. Still no riot. We DO NOT KNOW for now what actually happened. Accident ? Not sure. Pursuit by police ? Not sure. We don't know. But the day after this tragic accident, the very well-known president candidate Sarkozy (for now, think he is Chief of Police) makes a huge mistake. Without any prior investigation, he says : "police was not responsible for the death of these youths". When you know how the people having the same life of these youths think, what they endure, and the fact that these youths never did anything bad in their life, you can immediately see the riots coming. And that's what happened. Bad guys who love to burn and break things go in the middle, they are encouraged by TV which report they deeds, count the number of cars they burnt.
Others in other towns see that, and eve
Talking about, rather than inciting violence... (Score:5, Interesting)
I spent some time yesterday talking to my neighbor who is from Cameroon, in Africa. Their culture was impacted considerably by German colonialism, and then lurched into Frenchness when the French were handed that German turf after WWII. As a result, many people from his generation head to France for higher education, and indeed, he has relatives there. He fondly recalled traveling there (and across Europe) as a younger man 15 years ago, and says that he hates it now because "it's no longer France."
He's appalled by the unwillingness of many people that move there to even learn French or fully grasp how the country works. He says that some people there do wish that it was easier to snap their fingers and "be" French - with all of the social niceties and better paying work that might suggest - but that the problem is more in the objectives of the immigrants. His personal take on it is that, indeed, it's not Moroccans (as an example) wanting to move to France, it's Morrocans wanting to move Morroco to France.
At any rate, he came here (to the US), and is working his ass off in two different businesses (wireless networking and carpet cleaning!). He came here with very little, and now has a decent house (luxurious, he says, by any standard he would otherwise have enjoyed in Cameroon or in France) and just bought his equally hard working wife a nice Mercedes.
He uses the internet for VoIP chats with his friends in France and Africa, haunts many message boards and blogs in both places, and encourages his relations in France to do the same. His take on it is that the French have become completely schizoid on this entire bundle of issues. They preach a culture/color-blind take on all things governmental (which he applauds), and seem to let into the country pretty much anyone who feels like being there (which he thinks is crazy). But his main observation was that the socialist aspects of the French government/economy are chiefly to blame for everything that's happening. He has a bird feeder out behind his house and laughs when the squirrels fight over the sunflower seeds - but he says that's pretty much what's happening in the immigrant-heavy French suburbs right now... people moving there for the welfare-ish resources, and now erupting into a frenzy over the ramifications of living like that (in contrast to the country's better-off people, but - according to my neighbor - still better off than they would be where they came from). I asked him if his perceptions are typical, and he said that he wishes they were (in the French 'burbs), but that they are among the extended Cameroonian ex-pat community in the DC area. He's shaking his head over the whole thing, and says he wishes that France would lighten up on the whole free speech thing, but that it would tighten up on immigration. The biggest thing, though, is the complete fear (on the part of law enforcement) of even entering some neighborhoods. The police there are completely powerless to deal with the thuggier elements in the public housing ghettos, and have pretty much thrown up their hands.
my 2 euro cents (Score:5, Insightful)
1. There is no country in Europe that does not struggle with immigrants and children from immigrants from African origin. France has the largest number of them, hence the biggest problems. (This is also correlated to the anti-semitism problem in France: the largest arabic and the largest jewish populations of Europe are in France and anti semitism in France comes overwhelmingly from this arabic population)
2. Many of those rioters are simply criminals that do not want the police to be present in these suburbs and are demonstrating that it is their territory.
3. Islam has nothing to do with these rioters. If they were white, would we say it's because of christianity? These criminals are not muslim.
4. These bloggers were calling for physically hurting policemen, burning cars, schools,
5. What is this bullshit about journalists not talking about the causes of the social problems? All French newspapers, TV and radio news are just talking about that!
6. These riots happen almost exclusively in the poor suburbs of France, 99% of the French population has only seen burning cars on TV.
Re:my 2 euro cents (Score:3, Interesting)
They must have that stange "journalistic integrity" thing in France. We had that for a while in the US, but it didn't sell the adverts.
The news in America, particularly television news, is looking for sensational content. Since the upper/middle class in America does not want to hear about social injustice in France, Fox News and the rest nee
Re:my 2 euro cents (Score:4, Insightful)
I live in the suburbs, and I know some people in these poor suburbs. I knew a lot of them and know how they think, what they endure every day.
1. There is no country in Europe that does not struggle with immigrants and children from immigrants from African origin. France has the largest number of them, hence the biggest problems
This is just not true. You talk like only immigrants of African origin are a problem. This is completely wrong, and the population of poor suburbs are not limited to immigrants of African origin. Your last sentence is racist at best. Poor families of any nationalities live in poor suburbs. You already forgot the poor people thet died burnt in Paris some months ago, and there was no riot.
2. Many of those rioters are simply criminals that do not want the police to be present in these suburbs and are demonstrating that it is their territory.
Yes, many are just criminals, but they just show that they are stronger than police, and they are fueled by their success they see on TV.
3. Islam has nothing
4. These bloggers were
5.
Well I agree.
6. These riots happen almost exclusively in the poor suburbs of France, 99% of the French population has only seen burning cars on TV.
No, these "riots" happen everywhere, even in Paris. But it's true 99 % of French population have only seen cars burn on TV.
Not everyone watches CNN (Score:3, Interesting)
And I for one cannot say that I am even slightly surprised by the rioting. The white French attitude has always been shamelessly xenophobic, and finally it has come back to bite them in the arse, so to speak.
In Britain, anyway, we've always known the French like a bit of authoritarianism. So the censoring of blogs doesn't come as much of a surprise.
iqu
(* This is not to say that the UK is not without its racial tensions. Indeed, that country is at the moment engaged in something of a debate over "multiculturalism" - whatever that is - as it tries to decide how best to respond to the bombings of 7th July. But as so many will attest, in France, there is no shame in xenophobia, and it permeates the entire system, from the layman on the street to the judiciary and the politicians. Perfick tho' it most certainly ain't, there is at least some sense that xenophobia and discrimination are wrong.)
Perhaps a different choice of venue (Score:3, Insightful)
Being based outside the country you currently reside in has some usefullness.
Also, it is good to see that, despite living in economically depressed areas of France, they are able to get online at all.
As far as the (US) media coverage of the French riots, I agree, it's been almost all about the damage being done and very little about what they were angry for. I had to ask a friend who is a French national what in the would they were rioting for.
Her response was interesting, mainstream France does not harbor any noticible racism for black Africans. They have been and continue to be integrated into mainstream french society. The flare ups have been towards more recent north african immigrants who happen to be majority arab & muslim decent.
Like elsewhere in the would, people look for scapegoats whereever they can, in this case the more recent immegrants consume french health care and public assistance resources but are not far enough along in integrating (or refusing to integrate) to start contributing taxes and the like to make up for the difference. With unemployment being high in specific parts of France this can lead to problems etc etc.
I can't speak to if there is really any intentional discrimination of anybody. This was all from a 40 YO mother who is more in the world of shopping for dinner at x+3 shops and driving an SUV than anything else.
Not one of us (Score:3)
If you replaced "French Riots" w/ Watts Riots [usc.edu] in Chicago and "north african/immigrant communities" w/ Black people, would you be so comfortable repeating your statements? Have we after all these years come nowhere? I am not justifying what is going on there but people are burning thousands of cars and rioting that is now spreading all over europe. To not be somewhat self-reflective enough to ask how did it come to this is woefully ignorant.
Might not the idea that the two immigrant hoodlums running from the police who accidentally killed "electrocuted" themselves, might have some what less credibility being that just a few months ago, the police stalked, chased down and gunned down a brazillian immigrant [nctimes.com] at a subway stop and initially covered it up and blamed the immigrant that allegedly was wearing a coat in summer and acting suspiciously and running away all of which turned out not to be true at all and in fact was a complete fabrication?
How did did it come to this? Tell me why enforced secular humanism [usatoday.com] seems to be targeted primarily at the muslim community? Tell me about job prospects [bbc.co.uk]> and what the french have to do fix this problem. Tell me why the majority of people [blogharbor.com] in french jails are muslim.
And most of all tell me why europe is insisting on creating 2nd and 3rd generation second class non citizens "gast-werkers" who will never be allowed to truly be "french", "german" or more generally european because being born european doesn't make you european. To understand this more clearly I am linking a comparison of citizenship laws [metropolis.net] for countries around the world. The american so called "myth" is the nation of immigrants, we are all american one. But the europeans (somewhat ironically w/ their neoliberalism) makes you be european by blood or by an arbitrary bureaucracy leading to 2nd and 3rd generation foreigners (witness Germany and the Turks). If what is now going on in france happened here, we would not hear an end to the "shame of the nation" (aka la riots), and I find it mortifying that we collectively do not have enough reflexitivity to go beyond the "they are not us, they are them and they hate us, they are foreign" mentality. And it is shameful.
French approach to multiculturalism (Score:5, Insightful)
They really do mean that everyone is equal, and everyone is the same, and everyone will learn the same curriculum in every school in France at the same time of day. And there will be no special treatment for anyone in respect of membership of any group. And no mark of religious observance will be allowed in any school. This is why headscarves are banned. That's why there can be no equal opportunities programs, and no quotas based on ethnicity. There can of course be massive social programs directed at the poor and at deprived areas, and there are. It is not usually realised what an enormous proportion of the French budget goes on social spending. This is what is keeping the suburbs and their housing projects going. But no-one is being forced to live anywhere, except by individual choices of lots of people.
And, incidentally, if you live in a colonial possession, you are French. You are represented in the legislature just as if you were a departement of geographical France, you have the same government, the same schools. You are a citizen, that's all anyone needs to know. The rest is personal
Of course, the problem is, that neither the immigrants nor the native population actually feels this way, and the 18th century is a long time ago. Hence there is indeed widespread discrimination, widespread isolationism and separatism, radical Islam is a real factor. Participation in politics is minimal - though the French electoral system would make it quite easy for immigrant groups to elect representatives, there are almost none.
Its a mess all right. But it is not quite the mess it looks from the US. Its a kind of unfamiliar mess, and Lord knows how you straighten it out, now.
I was *fucking* born there (Score:3, Informative)
I remmember a group of more violent guys from my lower classes (12-13 years old). They were blackmailing other people, they accused everybody of being racist, they forced a young girl to have oral sex with them (and went in arrest for minor), some went in prison for drug dealing, most of the rest either dead of OD or AIDS. But the bottom line is NONE of them even tryed to study (prof are racist they give me bad notes) they were thieves (supermarket guard are racist they always ask me to empty my pocket) and were quite violent (all white are racist so we have the right to kick their asses).
I do not even count the number of time I have been targeted because I had a skin a slight bit whiter and blue eyes. I nearly lost my left eyes after such an attack. And I was not a single case (one person I knew nearly lost her arm, another got kicked and punched until she gaves her jacket and shoes, and up to this day the way she reacted after I am really asking if this was the only things which hapenned).
That MINORITY of guys did not ever want to be integrated or whatever. They just wanted to be violent and have their own little local "fiefdome". All the other friend I had (non white) we never even thougth about skin, for us it was normal to have various skin color, or eye color, or hair color or taste. So do not take me on "desperate" banlieu. I was there and a lot of my friend went doctor, technician, teacher, or guardsmen, one is even recently promoted police chief. But there is this freaking minority which was always those which burnt auto, grouped in bands, and mostly raised the violence level around and always placed themselves as victim. Those are the one rioting right now.
I won't deny that some people are racist, but this is not the majority of people and certainly it NEVER justified burning car , or attacking innocent people. All those rioter wanted was an excuse to let their violence and they got it. Aynthing else would have done.
As for the blog being closed, well there is law against incitation to violence. Voice an opinion about France official being racist is OK. Yelkl that youn want the bastard policist burn down and you get it [the censure] coming at you, no shit sherlock.
Re:They better stop the riots all right (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, the free speach should weigh heavy, but they should dampen the ones that try to fuel the fire.
Bullshit! There is no valid reason to restrict speech unless it presents an immediate danger and serves no valid point of discussion (yelling fire in a movie theater).
Simply banning all speech that might be "violent" is a very slippery slope. It would probably have made it illegal for me to encourage people to take to the streets to protest the Florida fiasco in 2000. They might do better by looking at the reason why these people are rioting in the first place. Perhaps because they feel cheated by the system? Perhaps because they aren't even allowed to wear their religious headwear to school anymore?
As a sidenote: I don't ever want to hear people slime the United States again. It's rather interesting that Muslim youth over here aren't rioting -- even though we are the ones "at war" with certain followers of that faith. Perhaps that's because we have better religious freedom?
Re:They better stop the riots all right (Score:3, Insightful)
1. I think by dampen the ones that try to fuel the fire he probably meant the ones that were explicitly inciting further violence. So we're (you, me and parent) are probably in agreement that those specific guys could have their free speech rights truncated in interests of greater public safety.
2. Perhaps that's because we have better religious freedom? I think more than just religious freedom it might have to do with the fact that the French state is a secular one. When they beheaded their king back i
Re:They better stop the riots all right (Score:3, Informative)
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wa
Re:They better stop the riots all right (Score:3, Insightful)
Or maybe Europe is closer in location and historic ties to the muslim parts of the world than the US is? Maybe this has nothing to do with a war, but more with a large influx of muslims seeking riches, but not finding it?
That's funny, because just one of our states (Michigan) has a larger Muslim population then any other Western nation save France, and overall we have the largest number of Muslims in the United States then any other Western country. I don't see any riots here.
And it's not just about ec
Re:They better stop the riots all right (Score:3, Interesting)
When did he lie about WMD? Unless you are one of thoses that believe that they knew that WMD did not exist at all; unlike the rest of the world.
responsible for all the civilians being slaughtered there
So Bush is responsible for loading people up with explosive and having them walking into restaurants and then blowing themselves up?
Or that Americans are no better than the Sunnis that ran Abu Graib?
well except for the US arrested thoses that
Re:They better stop the riots all right (Score:4, Insightful)
It was not intended to strip ones liberty of faith, but rather put everybody on the same level : no religion (quite) no differences. See it like the UK uniform tradition. Religion being an important matter, it aims not to bring possible 'tensions' at school.
It doesn't strip your liberty of faith to not be able to wear the items of that faith when you attend public school? I presume that school is mandatory for all children in France the way it is in the United States?
Such a law would never survive a court challenge over here. It would never even get passed in the first place.
Somebody has found other avenues of protest (Score:3, Interesting)
Some of their opponents have found other avenues of protest ...
I was debating how unwholesome KK Donuts are, and came across this defacement of the current Krispy Kreme wiki entry (who says wikis aren't up-to-the-minute)...
I can see bloggers who are afraid to post in their own countries adopting this tactic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krispy_Kreme [wikipedia.org]
Re:So why DO they riot, anyway? (Score:4, Interesting)
A French War of the Worlds [jewishworldreview.com]
The author has lived in France for several decades and this is what he says:
In a nation that insists immigrants accept the monolithic secular French culture, a great divide has grown. Part of it is the insular nature of Islamic North African culture. But much of it is that "French" France still rejects its North African countrymen.
They don't get good jobs or decent financial opportunities. Their unemployment rate is often as high as 50%. There isn't a single Frenchman or Frenchwoman of North African origin (or black, for that matter) in the cabinet, and only a handful hold any position of rank in the civil and commercial bureaucracy. There are virtually no black or Arab anchors on French TV, or North African cultural presence in the theater or cinema.
This has further angered the Muslim population, driving it deeper into its own ghetto mentality and to communal violence. When I first came to France 50 years ago, North African immigrants spoke Maghreb Arabic, but their French-born children proudly spoke French. Today, the beurs, the young French-born generation of North Africans, talk to each other in Arabic.
Re:So why DO they riot, anyway? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Pandering Rewards? (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, what does the rioting have to do with Islam, anyway? It's a social issue, not a religious one. Many of the rioters come from eastern europe and black africa, not just the magrehb. I suppose you think they all became islamists suddenly...
Re:Pandering Rewards? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Pandering Rewards? (Score:3, Informative)
Other than those just-on-paper muslims there are also plenty of christian and diverse animist religion immigrants from central africa
Re:Pandering Rewards? (Score:3, Interesting)
Okay, so let's say that you, and a bunch of people of your culture (whatever that is) were displaced to, say, China. The Chinese government built a high-rise ghetto for you all. Schools would not
Re:Pandering Rewards? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you aren't ready to immigrate, then don't immigrate. Period. Don't go to another country, and expect them to learn your language so that they can teach you in schools, and don't expect them to change their TV programming so that you can understand it. None of these people were displaced. They came voluntarily, and instead of assimilating, they're trying to do the assimilation. Hence the friction. I feel very little for them. I sincerely doubt that every other minority group in France is
Re:Pandering Rewards? (Score:4, Informative)
Instead, racism in France was always something you did quietly. Many HR managers in low level industries throw applications with north african sounding names directly into the reject pile. If you're a brown skinned male in a white neighborhood, you cannot sit next to a white female on a bus or train or you'll always risk getting beaten up by some white power vigilante group. The police go around immigrant neighborhoods and beat up and arrest youths with the always convenient justification of them "resisting arrest".
If you call anyone up on these occurances, they will brush accusations of racism off and claim they're not happening. Even us college educated north african immigrants who "made it" and generally don't have to deal with racism as much are reminded at least once a week that we're somehow less equal than others either in dealing with random people on the street or the especially fun police harassments.
Re:Pandering Rewards? (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes , obviously its their colour. Though all those indians doing well in
france obviously must have painted themselves white and used false names
when they went for job interviews, right? Or perhaps you're just dishing out
the usual racism rant because you're as dumb as the rioters and think all
their problems are caused by Nasty White People. Moron.
Ok, one thing. (Score:3, Interesting)
The ban on religous headwear was not and is not a case of the muslims being "singled out" or discriminated against. I
Re:I always try to find blogs with pertinent info. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Islam religion of peace... (Score:4, Informative)
That's pretty much it, folks.
If the American media want to blame this on their latest Islamist bogeyman, you might as well go the whole hog and blame the Watts and LA riots on radical Islam too...
Re:Islam religion of peace... (Score:4, Interesting)
It sure is. Turkey is very keen to join the EU as soon as it possibly can. The existing membership is split on the issue, but France is probably the strongest opponent. It's in Turkey's interest to portray the French government as anti-Muslim, because then the other nations in the EU will come to perceive France's opposition to Turkish membership of the EU as a product of an anti-Muslim mindset, and will be less likely to support France in that matter.
What the French are actually against, of course, is the accession to the EU of a country with a population bigger than theirs. The Turks would quite naturally have more seats in the European Parliament than either the French or the Germans, and would tend to vote for policies benefiting the poorer countries of the East who have recently joined. In order to defeat such policies, the French and Germans might actually have to come to agreements with the British... Clearly this is inconceivable if you happen to be French :-)
Re:Islam religion of peace... (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't you even bother to evaluate "factoids" before throwing them out to "support" your arguments?
Do you really believe fifty years ago that half of Turkey's inhabitants were atheists? When did the great Secular Turkish migration/exodus occur? Do you believe fifty years ago that America's population was only 50% Christian?
Re:Islam religion of peace... (Score:5, Informative)
Remember, the Bible and the Coran (not sure of the english sp.) have the same roots, you can find heinous passages in both of them. But both of them have proven to be able to be the basis of a viable morality.
We share more than most think.
Re:Islam religion of peace... (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Get the facts (Score:5, Informative)
As I understand it from reading the news today, those blogs (ran by kids respectively 18, 16, and 14 years old) were taken down and their authors were arrested not because they expressed opinions but because they called for more violence and murdering of police officers (namely by setting them on fire).
Which is illegal according to french laws.
Law broken. Law breaker arrested. I fail to see what the big deal is.
Re:Get the facts (Score:3)
Vive la France libre!
I've been to Paris, Dijon and Vannes. France from what I saw is an open and inviting country. The locals were always helpful and pleasant [with a few exceptions in Paris near the Orsay..
Frankly if these immigrants can't adjust to living in France it's because they're not willing to me
Re:Thank god for France! (Score:5, Insightful)
Anita Coney is a smelly poopy-head.
That's opinion.
Anita Coney should be shoved through a meat-grinder because he's such an idiot.
That's a threat.
Understand? You can state opinions ("France sucks!") but you can't try and get people to attack France.
By the way, the US works in exactly the same way. It's often refered to as "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" but you can bet that the same blogs would be shut down by US authorities.
Re:Thank god for France! (Score:3, Informative)
Here's a link from The First Amendment Center [firstamendmentcenter.org]
And here is the Wikipedia Entry [wikipedia.org] for Brandenburg v. Ohio, which was the Supreme Court Case that set the predicent.
Re:Thank god for France! (Score:3, Interesting)
The U.S. Supreme Court reversed Brandenburg's conviction, holding that government cannot constitutionally punish abstract advocacy of force or law violation. The unanimous majority opinion was per curiam ("signed" by the court as a whole rather than by individual justices): it was orginally drafted by Justice Abe Fortas before he had been forced to resign in the midst o
Re:Thank god for France! (Score:4, Interesting)
"Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."
His conviction was overturned because hate speech is still protected, and the assembly was peaceful.
Re:Thank god for France! (Score:3, Interesting)
And furthermore, as I stated, even if the statement is specific enough, there has to be some physical movem
I'd like to make a point (Score:3, Interesting)
Raping None reported. And god knows that if there were only rumors, far-right would cry it out loud
killing people Zero rioters killed. Zero policemen killed. One (and probably two soon) innocent bystanders killed (which is in the average criminality for a quiet week)
Number of shots fired during the first week : 4. (I didn't followed the events during the second week where I knew there has been shotgun shots in one suburb,