Kutztown Students get Felony Charges 825
gone6713 writes "The 13 students from Pennsylvania who were accused of hacking the iBooks provided to them by the school (Slashdot had a previous story on them back in June) have offically been charged. It seems that the admin passwords were taped to the back of the iBooks!"
Human error (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I'm really not surprised to hear this. Despite all the precautions companies/ institutions take, it's typically human negligence or social engineering that leads to many compromises. While doing a spot check of security at work, I was surprised to find many employees had taped their passwords to the bottom of their keyboard or mouse.
Rule#1 make sure your users (employees, admins, etc) understand the importance of confidentiality.
Taped? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Human error (Score:5, Insightful)
Forcing people to have different passwords for different systems that change on different timetables is just asking for them to break Rule #1.
retardville (Score:2, Insightful)
Surely the best route of action... (Score:5, Insightful)
Make sure to slap the hungry monkey's wrist that sees a stick next to an ant hill. Does wonders for intellectual development on a macro- and microscale.
Re:Taped? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hack? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, they may have used the computers in way which they shouldn't but, they didn't have to hack them.
I know, I know... the average Joe couldn't tell the difference between anything remotely technical but the media shouldn't be encourage it.
I think I'll go let Windows Hack into my neighbor's unsecured wireless access point.
Re:Taped? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes and no (Score:4, Insightful)
But the fact that the passwords were on the back of the iBooks does not mean everyone was free to use them at will.
I can tape the key to my house on to the front door of my house, and while that is extreme stupidity on my part, that does not give you permission to unlock the door and come inside.
More than just using the taped password (Score:4, Insightful)
Now that's not the only thing that the kids are accused of doing, they also turned off the monitoring software (Apple Remote Desktop?) and even used it to monitor the admins. In addition, they're accused of using hacking tools to find the new admin password when it was changed from the password that was taped on the back of the machines.
Also, if you click on the little update link at the bottom of the story, you'll see that the kids were also found to be downloading pornography. Might sound innocent to some of you, but adults / the school can get in trouble for "allowing" them access to X-rated material.
Now, a third degree felony sounds harsh, but they still need some punishment. If they had stopped at using the password taped onto the back of the computers I'd feel sorry for them, but they were spying on admins and using other means to get the password once it was changed.
If a warning label was attached to the laptops... (Score:1, Insightful)
"Acceptance of this laptop may expose your child to FELONY charges"
Would any of the parents allowed their child to have one?
This is only the beginning... (Score:5, Insightful)
At what point does "Hacking" begin (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd assume they'd WANT me to know the admin password if it was taped to the back of the laptop.
They are taking this too far, IMHO. (Score:1, Insightful)
Hell, if the admins are taping obvious admin passwords to student computers, how lax is the security on the rest of the school's network, where data like student names, addresses and grades are kept? I think the school district/board/admins/whoever are going after these kids with such zeal to keep the spotlight off what would be, in any other industry, criminally negligent network administration and security.
I think we should all take a moment to be thankful the network admins at that school district aren't working anywhere where their incompetence would cause serious trouble, like a financial institution.
Re:Yes and no (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:More than just using the taped password (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't that qualify for breaking and entering?????
These kids aren't angels...and whoops - there was consequences for their illegal actions..oh and to make sure everyone here gets that. These kids committed a crime. They KNOWNINGLY violated the machines by using the admin password they weren't suppose to have. Look - if I leave my house unlocked, does that make it any more wrong for someone to enter and start taking my things?
The other issue is that these are still kids, and if they're under 18.... it isn't on their permanent record. If you guys are constantly going to make excuses though about oh- it wasn't that bad, then the rest of the rules of society might as well fly out the window as well.
This is obviously what the parents want (Score:5, Insightful)
Whoever taped those passwords to the back of the computers needs to be fired. Whoever gave that person a job needs to be fired. Whoever has the authority to demand that the people above must be fired immediately but hasn't needs to be fired.
But this isn't happening. Rather than start demanding even a fleeting glimpse of intelligence within the public schools the parents simply get together and whine that the people they voted for have their heads so far up their rectum that you can't distinguish a fart from a whistle don't engage in sphincter-yoga.
Yes, there is the possibility that these parents didn't vote this particular schoolboard (and mayor , who allowed this particular police chief and DA to make such stupid decisions), but I'll hedge my bets and say that either they voted for them or didn't vote at all.
Are they demanding the resignation of the board? No.
Are they demanding the resignation of the DA? No.
Are they even promising to vote for somebody else in the next election? No.
So if they don't care enough to actually DO something about the situation, why should anybody else?
abusing admin account was only the beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
Afterward, they went on to monitoring the admin.
This is their defiance of authority and that's the message here.
On one hand, I think it's "harsh" what is being done to the kids -- I really do. But there's a larger picture here that should be acknowledged.
How many times have you been completely and utterly insulted by children who know there's nothing you can do about it. That is, in essence, what has happened here. When it was realized that the kids were breakign rules, they were essentially given the chance to straighten up when they were discovered and their admin passwords changed. The kids responded by being even mroe defiant and even aggressive about it.
We have a cultural mess on our hands. I'm just sick enough of defiant children to endorse the reaction we are seeing here. You can't spank children any more. Somehow it became a crime. You can't even talk "mean" to them -- it's somehow psychological abuse as well. As a culture, we cannot control the children. And it's clear that most parents will not regulate their offspring as well... (at least without fear of criminal problems much of the time)
I have two sons of my own and at the moment, my biggest problem is getting them to tell the truth. I haven't seen evidence of anything worse... not yet anyway. Respect for authority is a critical lesson in life that needs to be learned. If we have to make 13 examples of these kids, then so be it. It could help in changing the path for millions of other kids out there... kids that will one day grow up and lead this world. And if you think I'm over-reacting myself, look around you at the many "adults" out there who are early evidence of the things to come... people who never actually grew up and took responsibility for themselves. Examples are not hard to find.
Respect, in general, should be restored as a key value in our culture and at the core of respect is fear of what might happen if you don't.
Really illustrates the problems with this law (Score:4, Insightful)
Then again it really shouldnt surprise me that incompetent people in the I.T. field wind up blaming everyone around them for their faults. In this case it seems they managed to get a sympathetic ear out of their local PD. Its sad that, you can have people harbor a child molestor and not be charged with so much as obstruction of justice, but here you have children being charged with unauthorized use of devices placed in their possesion.
IANAL but the fact that the schools handed the PC's to the students, said use them to do their work will probably knock down any charges concerning them. It will be really hard to prove unauthorized access when they were handed the quipment and given access to the network. Taping the password the back of the machine should also throw out any claims that the systems were meant to be secure.
This case shows what happens when legislators make law without understanding what they are trying to legislate or considering the consequences. If this application of the law is held valid it will allow any corporation, organization or group to take revenge on any employee or member that uses its computers and is disliked. To do so, all that would have to be done is change an employee manual or circulate a policy memo in a way that it would either not be read or misunderstood, and then call the police when someone keeps on doing what they had been doing.
Re:honesty (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, so punish them, sure, but felonies? Do you also favor beheading as punishment for jaywalkers? Their punishment is so ridiculously disproportionate to the "crime" it's galling.
And still extreme overreaction (Score:5, Insightful)
So a rational adult would simply take the laptop away from them. Either play by the rules or take it away.
To me, this is the equivalent of sending your kid to reform school because he talked back one too many times. Its overreaction and really, its an admission of failure by the school authorities.
Everybody in Kutztown should be ashamed of themselves.
Re:More than just using the taped password (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right. Hardened felons, all of them. Criminals. Malcontents. Society can't possbily function with these kinds of challenges to authority... much less the status quo. Fly out the window, indeed! Thankfully, this kind of spirit has been identified early and, we can only hope, properly quashed. The last thing we need is any of the kind of insanity that lead to the shennanigans in Silicon Valley.
Re:Taped? (Score:2, Insightful)
You go to downtown Miami at 2 a.m. in your brand new BMW. You brought your 18-year-old son with you, and since you're going into a bar to have a few drinks, you give your son the keys.
You tell him he can drive around, but not to go more than 5 blocks away from the bar. While you're in the bar, he drives 8 blocks away to a convenience store to buy some soda.
When he gets back, you have him arrested and charged with a felony.
Re:Taped? (Score:4, Insightful)
In civilised countries kids who use a password TAPED to the computer have their computer privleges revoked, a lecture, and a meeting with their parents and the administration. They are NOT turned over to the police. In civilised countries the authorities know that children, even older teenagers, sometimes do stupid things and need more help and guidance than adults. When children screw up treating them as criminials just makes it more likely that they will become criminials.
Many countries have (even some states in the USA) have programs for first time offenders that diverts them from the normal criminal law courts. The diversion usually involves an apology, restitution, and community work. 90% of first time offenders that are diverted this way never commit another crime.
USA highschools, as reported in the media, are the most screwed up institutions on the planet. Scholastic achievment is punished, sports achievement is lauded, minor incidents are harshly punished. It is like some twisted Kaffkaesque prision.
Re:abusing admin account was only the beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
However, I disagree with your assessment of how to respond to the issue. Over and over again you are talking about "controlling" children - about "respecting authority". You bemoan the demise of spanking and complain that you can't "talk mean" to kids.
Now, I am not a psychologist nor have I studied child rearing - as I said, I'm only 18 myself. But what I would like to suggest, for whatever it is worth, is that respect isn't something that is instilled by control. It's something earned and taught. My parents never tried to control me and my siblings. We were never spanked, punished, or yelled at for things we did "wrong". Rather, they gently explained our error and, if necessary, had us make amends. Our parents raised us with respect for *us* - and helped us learn to respect others as well, by being living examples. I am not saying this approach necessarily works with all children (or all adults - some of y'all need to to think about the example of respect you're setting!). But I was dismayed by your advocacy of what is essentially parental authoritarianism, and I felt that a counter-example might be worth writing.
I would also dispute your statement that Respect for authority is a critical lesson in life that needs to be learned. Why? I agree with you that respect is an important lesson, but I would argue that respect should simply be for people and for property in general. Why should we respect authority? Teach kids to think for themselves, and educate them in moral principles so that they can make responsible decisions in their own right.
In closing, your post states:
Respect, in general, should be restored as a key value in our culture and at the core of respect is fear of what might happen if you don't.
I cannot say loudly enough how much I disagree with that. Respect isn't about fear at all. It's about doing what is right. It's about holding others in high enough esteem to want to treat them well. Heck, the good old "golden rule" is a simplistic but reasonable enough definition of respect - treat others the way you'd want to be treated, set their rights equal to your own. But fear of retribution? Where is the moral strength in that?
My 47.5 cents.
Re:abusing admin account was only the beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
If the kids won't follow the rules then take away the toys. If they are flounting the school rules then use one of the normal school punishments to deal with it. Even after repeat offensives of this type the school and parents should be able to deal with it without resorting to trumped up charges of "hacking". This is the school being vindictive.
Re:abusing admin account was only the beginning (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Please Understand the Context (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the equivalent of writing in a library book, except that re-imaging the hard disk on a laptop is actually easier than removing writing from a library book.
Anyone recall the scene in "Ender's Game" where the kids are virtually encouraged to mess around with their computers, in part so that the school can keep an eye on who's got creativity and daring and who's just a boring by-the-rules follower?
We won't be raising the kind of smart kids we need to be defeating aliens and saving humanity with the Kutztown school district's attitude.
As a parent (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you're presented a false set of choice here. The choice isn't "accept lack of respect" or "send them to jail"
Generally, if the administration is in a position where it feels that it can't control the children properly, it's the adults fault. Lets face it; Kutztown isn't exactly "The Blackboard Jungle". These are basically middle class kids who will do either the right thing or wrong thing depending on the situation. Honestly, if you taped the admin password to a laptop you loaned me, I might use it.
Ineffective leadership and ineffective parenting usually happens when parents/leaders lead by refusing to have small consequences and as a result are forced to have large consequences when things finally become unmanageable.
This is a perfect case. When it was discovered the kids had compromised the laptops as a result of the password written on top, the administrators might have (a) Punished the children in a small way... perhaps detention...perhaps removal from all extracuricular activities... parents should have been notified (b) the administration should have reimaged the laptops and changed all the passwords. (c) Warn the children that next time, they would have their laptops taken away and that their parents would be liable for the cost of reimaging all the laptops once again. Put all this in writing and have the parents of the children acknowledge this.
And here's really the key... you have to follow through on every "threat". That is, when it was discovered they'd hacked the laptops again, take their laptops away and send a bill for the cost of reimaging to the parents.
I'm telling you, these administrators almost sound like they heard the phrase "computer hacker" and it frightened them so much they felt they had to teach the kids a lesson.
Re:Human error (Score:4, Insightful)
I have to change my passwprd once a month and I always write down a password hint
So if my password was 'omg_this_is_hard_password!' i would write down 'you will never guess this months password, it's hard!' and that would be enough for me to remember
Don't think. Just do........what we say. ..or else (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Additionally (Score:3, Insightful)
If software requires that the admin knows the user's password to do basic administration, then you need to consider alternative technologies.
Re:Taped? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not sure if it would be making better criminals, but someone needs to explain to these kids about booting in target disc mode. Get a firewire HD shell, preferably a laptop size, a HD, and a copy of Panther of ebay for $30. Then, when they want to do their evil and nefarious iChatting, they can simply reboot off the external HD. Circumvents everything, lets the kids explore (while not at school), and the school should be none the wiser for it.
For about free, they could use an ubuntu live cd. Either way, non-destructive, untraceable cirvumvention is the key for these students.
Saner policy that would have prevented this: (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly.
"Listen up, kids. You will be given a laptop to use on school premises only. The laptops will be handed to you in Homeroom and must be turned in every day at the end of the last period of classes. If you go off campus for lunch, you must either turn your laptop in for safekeeping at the office or keep it securely locked away in your locker.
"Abuse of your laptop will be grounds for losing laptop privileges. You will then have to do your school work that requires use of your laptop in the computer lab up until the end of the year. Abuse of your laptop entails downloading porn, music, non-authorized software, or vandalizing your laptop or the laptops of others. Circumvention of the security systems used on campus (Dan's Guardian, Deep Freeze, etc.) will be grounds for losing laptop privileges.
"Due to security concerns, bringing your own laptop or handheld computer to school is expressly forbidden. Those violating these rules will have their laptop or handheld confiscated and their parents or guardians notified about how to pick up the confiscated property.
"If you break your laptop and it is determined the breakage is accidental or the result of mechanical breakdown or some other intrinsic failure, you will receive a working laptop in exchange for the disabled laptop. If the breakage is determined to be caused by negligence or vandalism, you will lose your laptop privileges.
"With privileges such as these come responsibilities. Don't come crying to us if you break the rules and find yourself without your school-issued laptop, because you knew the rules in the first place. To assure us that you do know the rules, you will be given a paper copy of the rules with a form to fill out. Those of you who need assistance with reading the rules or filling out the form will receive the assistance. Only when we are sure you completely understand these rules will we issue you your laptop."
There. problem solved. Next earth-shaking issue, please...
You want to wake up (Score:5, Insightful)
You want to wake up, son. Lets put this in context, shall we? We are talking about a felony, that is entering children into the criminal justice system because the school admins didn't have clue one about how to secure their own systems from... children. The mini emporers in academia need a taste of their own medicine. Honestly speaking, a previous poster pointed out that taping the password to the backs of the computers was tantamount to incitement and solicitation of a minor. I wouldn't just use it as a threat though, I'd go afer the little hitlers until every man jack of them had spent a few months trying out the local prison facilites. Such irresponsible and knee jerk reactionists should under no circumstances be educating children.
Don't get me wrong, I know some kids are wretched creatures that shouldn't be in general education, but in this case I think an example does need to be made. Of the so called teachers.
missed point (Score:2, Insightful)
I thought teaching and parenting were a partnership? Screw that. Teachers are underpaid, administrators are over paid. And parents are treated as children. That is the message sent out and the kids see this.
Had this been my kid and the school contacted me after the first inccident, the problem would have been solved to the benefit of child and the school district.
Re:abusing admin account was only the beginning (Score:3, Insightful)
These kids repeatedly violated the rules of use of the machines. So take the machines away from them! The only unbreakable security strategy is to prevent access to the system.
Each time the machines were returned to these kids constituted a challenge to them to crack the new level of "security". From what is written, it seems obvious that they demonstrated that they know more about computers than the admin at the school district. If the IT admin staff were only part-time (because they have more relevant obligations, like teaching), why shouldn't we expect that they are less informed than a collection of people who can provide "full-time" energy to the activity? Their mistake and criticizable failure was in not taking the student's machines away from them.
Moreover, if i give the keys of a car to a drunk, i suspect (warning: IANAL) then i have liability if that person commits a crime (kills someone with the car, etc.). I believe this falls under aiding and abetting a crime. If the school's admins knew that these people were continually hacking the systems yet continued to provide them with the tools to do so, aren't they also liable?
Re:Additionally (Score:3, Insightful)
Not the mention, the more inconvenient it is for a user to change his/her password, the less likely it is that s/he will do it.
Re:More than just using the taped password (Score:4, Insightful)
A computer is NOT a house. A computer can essentially be restored to its original (software) state with minimal effort. I highly doubt all six hundred laptops were individually configured, and instead had some sort of imaging or automated network install, so any broken installations could be restored easily. From what I have been told about Mac OS X, there is an option to reinstall the system without deleting user profiles, so students wouldn't even have to lose files (if they weren't stored or backed up on a network.)
But if I walk into someone's (unlocked) house, and steal their TV, jewelry, and other items of value, they've lost them. They can't go restore the backup. They can't put in a few CDs and reinstall their stolen TV and jewelry. Their only hope is to have the items recovered somehow.
Re:Somebody remind me.... (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't see any sense in limiting children to Microsoft products though which is what most school boards are doing. KDE/Gnome and Open Office contain 95% of the same functionality as MS Office but with easier administration and better security. Eliminating the license fees for MS Windows, MS Office, Windows Server, Visual Studio, MS Backoffice, and all the client access licenses to connect to MS server products would allow the district to purchase many more bare-metal commodity PC's within the same capital budget.
And for teaching programming before college, Linux is a dream. There are a plethora of programming tools and compilers for every language under the sun, and most of them are free. Linux has taken the server market by storm and is also becoming the standard for small devices. School administrators should look 5-10 years down the road at when these kids will be college graduates and prepare them now for the Open Source future they will be living and working in.
Re:Somebody remind me.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Human error (Score:5, Insightful)
When I was 11 or 12, in public school, we got computers (TRS-80 CoCo's, which dates me I guess). The first day we had them, the teacher told us to turn them on, then don't touch anything until she told us to...
Well, I turned mine on, and the monitor just showed a black picture. So I turned up the brightness (it was down all the way), and fixed it. It never occurred to me that "don't touch anything" included the brightness control; I'd had one of those on my TV for as long as I could remember. I thought she meant "don't type anything"...
So I got suspended from school for a week. For turning up the brightness. Looking back on it now, I can see that I deserved *something* for disobeying a direct order... detention perhaps, or losing computer privileges for a week...
Of course, back then I thought of being suspended as a great vacation. I got to stay home and play with my computer (Atari 400, which I liked better than the CoCo anyway).
The thing was, when the teacher saw me tweak that knob, the expression on her face was one of *terror*. Not surprise, or anger... Utter, abject fear. I can only assume it was the machines she was afraid of, not me (I was big for my age, but not known for beating people up, especially not teachers).
Then and now, the teachers and administrators probably resent having to have the computers at all. They don't understand computers (well, OK, most people don't), but they *do* understand that the kids know more about computers than they ever will, which makes the adults feel like they're not in control. The type of person who becomes a school administrator is the type who hates being out of control, so they use (or abuse) their authority to make sure the kids are too terrified to step out of line.
Not too long ago, I did a contract job for a school system, setting up routers and proxy (censoring) software. One day the boss (former English teacher who was put in charge of the school's IT dept) asked me what I was doing, so I told her. I don't remember exactly what I said, but it was probably something like "I'm installing Apache so you can use this CGI script to configure your whitelist and blacklist for the squid proxy". Her response was, "Don't use all those technical terms with me! How would you like it if I used educational jargon when talking to you?"
It almost made me crack up laughing... but she was dead serious. So I calmed myself, and I told her (and not in a smart-assed way either): "Well, if you used words I didn't understand, I'd ask you to explain them. You're a teacher, so you're probably pretty good at that. I was trying to communicate with you, not confuse you, so tell me what I said that you didn't understand, and I'll try to explain it."
She got *pissed*. I mean red-faced, white-knuckled, and shaking. She stormed off...
A week later my company was officially fired from that contract (possibly *only* because of that incident, but probably not: we were behind schedule, partly because we kept having explain basic networking concepts to the school's IT employees, who were supposed to be supervising us). Since then, I've avoided public schools like the plague, and been happier for it. If I ever have kids, there's no way I'd send them to a school where people like that English teacher have authority over them.
If these "hackers" were my kids, I wouldn't punish them, but I would take them aside and explain that the mundanes are terrified of them, and ask them to hide their brains when in such company. I'd tell 'em not to worry, the cream always rises to the top... I'd also send 'em to a good private school, even if it meant a second or third mortgage on the house.
Re:Human error (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, so, issuing a kid free computer hardware as part of their education, telling them not to screw it up (and not to risk infecting the network that that their fellow students and staff rely upon), and then, when the kids explicitly do exactly the thing they know they're not supposed to, getting them in trouble for that... that's "pushing them around?"
How is that different than the kid taking high school driver's ed deciding he's going to take the Toyota Corolla for which he's just been handed the keys, and deciding to "explore" the soccer field with it? He knows he's not supposed to, and he knows that if he's that interested in screwing around with cars he can get a job or ask his parents to buy him his own "exploration" platform to which he can do whatever he wants.
will be detained, beaten, fined, and thrown in jail.
Really. So, you hate the boss's rules about not, what - wasting printer paper? - and if you somehow rebel, you get beaten and thrown in jail? I see. Now, we get non-stop, round-the-clock cable news coverage and lawsuits when someone gets roughed up by a security guard at Best Buy, but no non-crazy-blog coverage of this sort of thing? Any chance that perhaps your personality or judgement has had a grating way of pissing off a lot of the people with which you've interacted? It sounds like you consider your "microscopic sphere of influence" to be the "most important thing in the universe." Any chance that's part of the friction? Even a part of it?
I say "Keep it up!" The American Empire is going the way of the Roman Empire.
Because, what, the institutions and operations that make things like the internet you're using right this minute even possible will somehow work better for you when there's no expectation of consequences for people's attempts to damage it?
Re:Human error (Score:3, Insightful)
How do you "hack" a laptop given to you? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Human error (Score:3, Insightful)
What, you'd have every possible apparatus, tool, supply, or pointy object in a school setting come with a laundry list of every single thing that you shouldn't do with it? How about giving the average kid enough credit to know that intentionally doing something they've been asked not to do is bad news, period. And that actions deliberately taken to cause harm (like, shoving a pair of school scissors into the radiator fins of a school air conditioner unit) still aren't OK even though the students weren't issued any paperwork or lectures on that specific bad act.
For as many times as students have acted to do felony-worthy things like vandalize networks or corrupt things like academic records or obtain payroll data on teachers, etc, it's certainly reasonable to have a single rule that says "only use this equipment in the way we've described, and that includes not installing stuff that's not already there."
Just because the staff lounge isn't locked doesn't mean that it's reasonable for a student to wander in an hose the place up or look for private papers in someone's briefcase, or find a phone with which to make long distance calls to Peru.
No, HELL NO, they must redirect it to the little guys
No, the "little guys" are the people who are using the school's equipment in the way they've been asked to, and who may or may not be hacking their way to glory on their own home equipment on their own time, with someone else dealing with any support fallout. The people who decide that the school's equipment needs some new communication software installed on it, despite being told not to do that - they are not "the little guys," they're the guys that presume the rules set up to avoid all sorts of potential legal problems, sensitive data loss, expensive equipemnt maintenance, and classroom disruption don't apply to "explorers" such as themselves.
I'm all for exploring. Do it in the computer lab, and show the instructor the cool thing you want to try. Or do it on the free one-generation-old PC that is sitting out on the curb of every suburban neighborhood in the country. Don't raise my property taxes so that the school can afford to pay the new IT guy they just had to hire because there are no consequences for deliberately Pnwing school hardware and systems.
Re:Human error (Score:4, Insightful)
She obviously had some sort of control issue.
If my kids ever got a laptop from school... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Human error (Score:3, Insightful)
But of course if a bunch of your son's friends wants, as a game, to find out if any cars in the lot are unlocked, your son, being smart, will find an excuse to stay away from that activity.
Re:Human error (Score:2, Insightful)
Never change a password before a weekend, holidays or other period of longer than usal absence.
Re:Additionally (Score:3, Insightful)
The only thing it achieves is to make pointy-haired cretin bosses warm and fuzzy and the admin's life miserable. Keyloggers, fancy stealth rootkits etc etc. If a competent admin goes "rouge" watch out. Windows is a system by idiots for idiots and I cringe everytime I have to use the thing in serious environments, alas, I have a little choice. Bill has us all cornered with the deep penetration of the business world combined with unimaginable, self-reinforcing inertia. That and the fact that most users/developers for Windows are idiots to begin with.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:abusing admin account was only the beginning (Score:2, Insightful)
If you don't respect your mom already, and you still need to be spanked when you're 15, then the problem is probably with your mother (as well as with you).
Your freedom? What the hell? It's a privilege, not a right, to use laptops provided by the school. If anything, they're taking away the schools freedom to use their equipment as they see fit.
The diffrence between this and installing Linux on your iPod is that you do not own the laptop. It's not for your enjoyment, it's for school purposes only.
These kids deserve what they get.
No, they need to learn there are consequences (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean look, if someone has physical access to a machine, they can get root, period. Any barriers you put in the way are only superficial and will only slow them down, if anything. We always operate under that assumption at work. We don't try and pretend we have an unhackable system because there's no such then when someone is physically at the computer. Rather we put in place as good a system as possible, and if someone insists on breaking it we take action which can range from having the department head talking to the to calling the police.
So it sounds like these kids were given plenty of chances, but they decided that there was just no real consequences so they'd just keep doing it. That's a very similar mindset to vandals that go around bashing in car windows and so on.
Now if they actually try and lock these kids up till they are 21 or something else, then yes I'll call it an overreation. However I don't think facing criminal charges is unreasonable, and if they get community service and probation, I think that's fine.
I won't give the kids crap for messing with the laptops initally, when the password was on the laptop, I mean even though it's technicly not allowed, it's just too tempting. If I leave my front door hanging open, it's still tresspassing to come inside, but I really can't blame a curious kid that does that.
However when the passwords were changed and the kids not only broke in, but disabled the school's administrative access, well that's another thing entirely. Now we are talking about kids who disable the security system on my windows, come in, and try to mess with my door lock so I can't get in. That's serious.
I personally don't think taking away the laptops is a severe enough solution. I think it would just reenforce the idea that it's ok to cause trouble on comptuers, since nothing will ever really happen to you.
We encounter those kind of people on campus peridocly, they think they can just break in to other people's systems and it's ok, because it's just computers and no real consequences will result. We had one kid that took out the main library's network several times, trying to get Cain and Able to work right. He was convicted of a crime, by the way. Right now we have someone who's pretty clearly on campus, but smart enough to route through a system outside that is methodicly trying to break in to UNIX systems all over campus, with some success. It's likely to be a rather large sentence when they catch this guy, as it has caused a lot of problems and lots time and the guy just won't quit.
I think tech savvy kinds need to learn that it's not ok to just disregard people's rights to their computers. It's not ok to break in to something just because you have the technical ability. And it's not a case of "Don't do this or we'll make it harder for you by taking away your access" it's "Don't do this because it is wrong, and there are real consequences".
Re:Human error (Score:2, Insightful)
How is that different than the kid taking high school driver's ed deciding he's going to take the Toyota Corolla for which he's just been handed the keys, and deciding to "explore" the soccer field with it?
Well, for one, you're pioleting a 8 pound piece of laptop in a fashon that's not going to break it (you can ghost it...), instead of a multiton vehicle...I think most kids have the intelligence not to rampage around in a multiton vehicle in a fashon thats going to break it( and if they don't you teach them).
He knows he's not supposed to, and he knows that if he's that interested in screwing around with cars he can get a job or ask his parents to buy him his own "exploration" platform to which he can do whatever he wants.
Ok, so if the school lets him piolet one of their vans, then it's not allright to give the school a lawnjob. But if he buys the car himself, it is allright?
I'd bet the soccer team would have a problem with that...
Look, the only reason I know what I know about computers is because I haven't been afriad to break them. These kids saw the admin passwords on the back of the machines, entered them in, and began exploring (the school probably didn't even tell them not to screw with it). It's like putting a do not enter sign on a door then leaving the key in the lock. If the cops can search your vehicle if you leave the door open, then if you leave the key in the lock can't that also be construed as a come on in signal?
If I were the principal, I'd get someone to take the admin logins off of the back of the machines, change them around to new ones, give the book to the IT guy for safekeeping and keep one myself in an office safe, then I'd sit down with the kids, tell them not to do it again, explain to them that it causes us headaches when they screw with the machines, then I'd hand them fliers to 2600 meetings and college computer courses or something for them to dabble in so they get some exposure to their own kind and how mature adult hackers act.
And trust me, you sit these kids down with a real hacker and the guy begins teaching them politics and computer science, and you've got a good thing going on.
Re:STFU, neocon (Score:3, Insightful)
I firmly believe criminals must face justice but I also believe the punishment should fit the crime (and "crime" doesn't really fit in this case). Felonies used to be for the worst crimes... murder, rape, or gunpoint robberies. Now they are about some small town school principal trying to prove that he is still in control.
Disclaimer: I don't know for a fact it's the principal of this school driving this stuff. You get the point, though.
Re:abusing admin account was only the beginning (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:Human error (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd like to see the signed agreements, the one the parents got and the parent approved version signed by the students, can't have minors entering into legally binding contracts without parental approval. I'm guessing if there was one it was as full of holes as a bad shrink/click-wrapped EULA.
What happens next year if parents refuse to allow their kid to accept the school's iFelony machine? Will they scrap the program and sell the used ones for $49.99?
Re:spect for authority necessary (Score:2, Insightful)
People in power should be given authority because they have already earned the respect of those who they will have authority over. People in power also must continue behave in a manner that remains worthy of respect under scrutiny.
In the case of your police example, if a police department consistently and fairly enforces the law, responds rationally and appropriately to threats, and quickly weeds out any corruption in its ranks, then, when a police officer shows up at my door and informs me that it is an emergency and I must evacuate I will trust and quickly comply with this command.
On the other hand, if a police department is seen as corrupt, unfair, inefficient, or irrational in its response to threats then, when a police officer shows up at my door I will have grounds to be suspicious, ask questions, and possibly not comply with what I am asked to do.
All respect is earned and can be lost.
Looking back on it....I can see that I deserved... (Score:5, Insightful)
Looking back on it now, I can see that I deserved *something* for disobeying a direct order... detention perhaps, or losing computer privileges for a week...
No. You deserved no punishment whatsoever for turning up the brightness on a monitor that had the brightness all the way down. Making that sort of adjustment is common sense.
In fact, anyone who would suggest that displaying common sense is a crime, or that military-type jargon such as "disobeying a direct order" is something that we should be using to educate school children, is not thinking correctly.
In fact, the whole idea that public schools should be run like a semi boot-camp type environment, with "direct orders" and "zero tolerance policies" and a complete and utter disdain for individual creative thinking, is just plain wrong.
I was in the military for many years, and I know exactly what military-style training can and can't achieve. It's excellent for turning out people who will do things EXACTLY as ordered, and PRECISELY according to a pre-determined plan. It's really not that great at teaching creative thinking, or instilling a system of personal ethics that aren't imposed by an outside authority. It's great for cranking out infantrymen, and pretty darn awfull for instilling any sort of American democratic and egalitarian ideals.
Heck, if the teacher in charge of that class had bothered to do her jo, and pre-check each machine and each monitor before class to ensure that the basic settings were correct, then the problem wouldn't have arisen in the first place. Oh, but wait, that would require people in positions of petty authority to take RESPONSIBILITY for their own actions.... definatelly a part of the military tradition that school authorities would want to run from like the plague ;) I mean, making KIDS be responsible for their actions is cool, but actually holding teachers and administrators to the same standard? Heh.. it'll never happen.
Re:STFU, neocon (Score:3, Insightful)
I've found it possible to talk to those who became conservative by the first two paths, though we have some fundamental differences.
Sadly, Rush and O'Reilly appeal to the last of these groups. And the behavior of the school authorities in this case seem to fit that profile: fearful, arbitrary, disproportionate. Why are they coming down like a ton of bricks on these kids? Because they can, and because administering punishment turns them on.
Re:More than just using the taped password (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Human error (Score:3, Insightful)