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Tor Named One of the Year's Best Products

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  • Such hypocrisy. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by King_of_Prussia (741355) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @03:25AM (#12787760)
    How does slashdot get away with publicly lauding Tor as the great application that it is, while simultaneously blocking over 90% of the nodes from posting to slashdot? Try it now, it took me thirty tries to post a comment to slashdot using Tor the other day.
    • Re:Such hypocrisy. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by stormcoder (564750) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @03:37AM (#12787785) Homepage Journal
      I've complained repeatedly about this and I haven't gotten a response.
    • Re:Such hypocrisy. (Score:1, Insightful)

      by noneloud (891263)
      If people wouldn't abuse it, they wouldn't have to.
      • So you're saying that having no crapfloods or troll posts (which can be filtered out with the moderation system anyway) is more important than some oppressed chinese guy getting his opinion out on a part of the web banned in China?

        The editors have gone beyond a simple lack of faith in the moderation system, they are actively undermining it with broad account* and IP bans. For a website that makes such noise about being anti-censorship these are pretty funny actions.

        *fun fact: if you log out and request

        • Re:Such hypocrisy. (Score:3, Insightful)

          by noneloud (891263)
          Let me ask you something: If we have too many crapfloods, and trolls, how will anyone's voice be audible over the white noise. Yes, anonymity is important expecially for people in China and other restrictive places you talked about. However, If people abuse a system too much (including the moderation system...which they do as well), then that system can't sustain itself.
          • However, If people abuse a system too much (including the moderation system...which they do as well), then that system can't sustain itself.

            So why not just give out mod points more often to moderators with a good track record?
          • Slashdot either eliminate "Anonymous Coward" posting, or else allow posting from TOR nodes?
            • Re:How about... (Score:1, Insightful)

              by Anonymous Coward
              The ability to post anonymously is actually very important. It allows for posts to be taken at their content value, instead of coming from some suckup or karma whore who's just parroting the statements of the current popular political party (currently the Dems in the USA).

              Of course, the ``Anonymous Coward'' option is only anonymous when you draw the system line around the forum; you aren't really anonymous. This is fine for having a technical discussion where people add their own experiences, but not g
              • ...the current popular political party (currently the Dems in the USA).

                Either you've never been to the USA, or you spelled 'Republicans' wrong. Democrats are vilified and hated here (for good reasons - they're almost as bad as Republicans, only they act all wishy-washy about it).

            • Re:How about... (Score:5, Insightful)

              by caluml (551744) <{slashdot} {at} {spamgoeshere.calum.org}> on Saturday June 11, 2005 @07:39AM (#12788301) Homepage
              Slashdot either eliminate "Anonymous Coward" posting

              No - it should leave the ability to post anonymously, but only if you are logged in to an actual account.

          • Only one point, though ( the other one disappeared, it seems)

            --

            More seriously, that's an accommodation of humanity: it's more convenient to erode worth than to grow it, and if one wants to get one's own gain, then one has to be more aggressive a predator-of-worth than Others are, so. . .

            The only problem with that equasion is that there are different /kinds/ of worth, and some are worth more to any individual than are others.

            I find autonomy, quiet, harmony, freedom-of-intelligence, spiritual freedom, etc
        • I bet you he'd still just write "First post" with it.
        • Re:Such hypocrisy. (Score:2, Insightful)

          by drsquare (530038)
          For a website that makes such noise about being anti-censorship these are pretty funny actions.

          There's nothing wrong with censorship on a private site. Complaints about censorship apply to governments and other authorities stopping people exchanging certain information, i.e. passing laws banning obscene material. That's completely different from say a shop refusing to sell porn magazines. Slashdot has no obligation to post anyone's comments at all, but that doesn't mean that government censorship is accep
          • "There's nothing wrong with censorship on a private site."

            Unless that site prides in portraying itself as anti-censorship. See: Hypocrisy.

            "Is anything really changed by some Chinaman..."

            "Some Chinaman"? Enough said.

            • Unless that site prides in portraying itself as anti-censorship.

              When does slashdot portray itself as a site against censorship on private sites? Articles about censorship on here are generally about government censorship. Your point is invalid.

              "Some Chinaman"? Enough said.

              I'm sorry I don't follow.
          • Is anything really changed by some Chinaman bitching about being opressed?

            Dude, "Chinaman" is not the preferred nomenclature... Asian-American, please.

          • This always comes up: it private it's ok to censor.

            Well I have a problem with that because the information content and flow it less and less controlled by goverments and more by private corporations. So tell me : when all information is controlled by corporations that can do whatever they want with it, where I'm going to find unbiased information?

            Try to find a website that is not is some way using a corportion equipment, network, software or OS.
            • Well, tough. No private site is obliged to store and transmit your information. The sense of entitlement around here astounds me.
              • I think you're missing the point.

                Let me illustrate with an example from the UK.

                Here it is legal to protest in public places: eg roads in towns, town centres etc.

                However a number of town centres and ostensibly public places (like the centre of Stevenage) are now owned by corporations and demonstrations are banned. So where do people protest when there's no public place to do so?

        • > more important than some oppressed chinese guy getting his opinion out on a part of the web banned in China?

          Slashdot would probably be the last place he would turn to to get his opinion [about the regime] out. First, one sane voice would not be heard among thousands of screaming kids, and second, the Chinese undercover state security officials would mod him redundant within seconds. ;-)
    • Re:Such hypocrisy. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by sinner0423 (687266)
      Because Tor works, apparently.

      It's the same with any other internet service - give it a few days, and watch the abuse roll on in. Web, Email, Chat, they can ALL be used for great things but the perpensity for abuse lurks just around the corner, and Tor isn't an exception to this.

      If they allowed 100% of the Tor connections, the comments would be flooded with more ascii goatse pics, GNAA Postings, tubgirl links, and all kinds of wonderful trollish crap. It already is bad to a certain degree, and that'
      • Re:Such hypocrisy. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Tim C (15259) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @04:35AM (#12787919)
        If they allowed 100% of the Tor connections, the comments would be flooded with more ascii goatse pics, GNAA Postings, tubgirl links, and all kinds of wonderful trollish crap.

        That's what the moderation system is designed in part to deal with. (Of course, with the addition of friends and freaks, and score modifiers for them, it's turned into more of a way of ensuring that your world view is never disturbed by reading things you don't agree with, but I digress...)

        There's also nothing stopping the editors from deleting such crap. The ASCII pics and GNAA posts are easily seen at a glance, and it'd be trivial to produce a private interface that had a "delete this shite" button against each comment (or checkbox and single "Delete the shite" button, or whatever)

        I'm all for internet anonymity and free speech, but there are very few reasons why someone would need to visit the slashdot comments section with a proxy.

        Corporate whistle blowers, people in countries with oppresive regimes commenting on stories about some aspect of that regime (eg net censorship in China), people discussing first-hand experience of illegal activities, etc. No, it doesn't happen very often, but when it does it could potentially lead to very interesting comments.

        All of that is beside the point, however. It most certainly does seem rather odd that the Slashdot editors praise Tor while simultaneously seeking to prevent access to the site with it. It's effectively saying "Yes, annonymous internet access is necessary and good, but not to *my* site!"

        So, what, other sites should allow it, but not /.? "Do as I say, not as I do"? If you want to convince people that something is good, allowing it yourself is generally seen as a necessary first step.
        • There's also nothing stopping the editors from deleting such crap. The ASCII pics and GNAA posts are easily seen at a glance, and it'd be trivial to produce a private interface that had a "delete this shite" button against each comment (or checkbox and single "Delete the shite" button, or whatever)

          Well yeah, but I don't think slashdot would spring for the resources to check every single comment for a troll just because they've allowed all connections. It would be trivial to do so.

          It is hypocritical o
          • Re:Such hypocrisy. (Score:3, Informative)

            by Aeiri (713218)
            It's not that difficult to change your IP address. All you have to do is change your virtual MAC address and reconnect to your ISP, their DHCP server recognizes you as a different computer.

            To change your virtual MAC address under Linux, given you are using the primary ethernet adapter (not sure in Windows):
            ifconfig eth0 hw ether NE:WM:AC:AD:RE:SS

            Tor has a limited amount of IPs, and if trolls are using it in order to post, they are doing it the wrong way.
        • "people in countries with oppresive regimes commenting on stories about some aspect of that regime (eg net censorship in China),"

          what's the bets that possession of the TOR program on your computer in one of those oppressive countries will be seen as evidence of intent

      • I'm all for internet anonymity and free speech, but there are very few reasons why someone would need to visit the Slashdot comments section with a proxy.

        If traffic is being traced, the authorities might figure out who's posting critical commentary.

        For example, China has sophisticated monitoring of the internet.

        As another example, a company with aggressive surveillance might retain data being posted, to be analysed. If Slashdot had an SSL connection, that risk might be avoided, but they don't.

        • One side-effect of TOR is that packets arrive and leave multiply encrypted.

          They enter multiply encrypted. If the requested protocol is HTTP, they exit unencrypted, just as if the exit node had made the request itself.
          • They enter multiply encrypted. If the requested protocol is HTTP, they exit unencrypted, just as if the exit node had made the request itself.

            I think he's referring to the actual computer using Tor.

            PC -> Multiply Encrypted and Bounced Through Network -> Non-Encrypted to Server -> Non-Encrypted Back -> Multiply Encrypted and Bounced Through Network -> PC

            It comes BACK encrypted, and that's his point, I believe.
          • Aeiri's made my point.

            I'm taking a PC, rather than data-centred perspective.

            Also the context makes it fairly clear: it goes though the (company|country) checkpoint in encrypted state. Or else, you can't check where it's really ultimately from, if they do get to read it.

            It does after all end up unencrypted, on Slashdot, after all! So keeping the data safe the whole journey serves no purpose.

      • Because Tor works, apparently.

        It's the same with any other internet service - give it a few days, and watch the abuse roll on in. Web, Email, Chat, they can ALL be used for great things but the perpensity for abuse lurks just around the corner, and Tor isn't an exception to this.


        No, it's because Slashcode lacks support for anonymous use. Until someone adds said support, Slashdot will not be anonymously usable.

        If everyone created an account, no problem.

        The thing is that Slashdot's codebase uses blackli
        • Any other mechanism that uses expensive IDs that can function in an anonymous environment will also work.

          You maybe do not need them at all. Just a combination of the OCRable letters (or a similar measure) with indication in the title of the post that the post is from an anonymized IP, and allow assigning users a modifier for anonymous posts (one more criterium in addition to already existing ones).

          Anything that involves a non-anonymous IP breaks anonymity and can lead to the Goons With Guns coming and r

      • If they allowed 100% of the Tor connections, the comments would be flooded with more ascii goatse pics, GNAA Postings, tubgirl links, and all kinds of wonderful trollish crap. It already is bad to a certain degree, and that's with a publicly moderated rating system and IP filtering already in place.

        Easy remedy. Do not ban posts from tor IPs. Just indicate in its title that it was posted through anonymizing service, and let the moderating system deal with it.

        Maybe, for improved results, have more heavy t

    • Huh? (Score:5, Informative)

      by poptones (653660) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @04:29AM (#12787903) Journal
      I don't understand why you would need tor to hit here. Just put slashdot on the "exception list" in your proxy config and it works great. The ads still get killed (if you are using privoxy) but the content is fast and complete.

      You might also trying setting up your tor config file. You do not HAVE to use the "trusted gateways" for the final drop, that is only how it is configured OOTB. Add "exit" to the untrusted gateway nodes permissions - heck you can even remove "exit" from the "trusted nodes" permissions. Now you're not connecting via those "known tor nodes."

      BTW it ain't just slashdot. Lots of sites still use IP information instead of session variables and it will drive you nuts trying to post to one of them or even stay connected without having to log in again every two minutes. Simple solution is to just add those sites to the "don't proxy these sites" list. May not be the solution you want if it's a "controversial" site that could lead to leagal attention, but if you're really worried about that sort of thing you're a fool for using tor for it anyway.
      • by TCM (130219)
        You might also trying setting up your tor config file. You do not HAVE to use the "trusted gateways" for the final drop, that is only how it is configured OOTB. Add "exit" to the untrusted gateway nodes permissions - heck you can even remove "exit" from the "trusted nodes" permissions. Now you're not connecting via those "known tor nodes."

        1) With the development version of tor, any node whose port is reachable gains some "half verification". This means it can and will be used as an exit node. It can not,
    • I complained about this, and the support monkey who responded said "Are you the administrator of Tor Network?" Then I explained it, and never got a response back.

      If Slashdot wants to be a bunch of dicks about it, then they should stop lauding the software.
    • how do you get away with claiming that /. is lauding tor just because they post a story about it?
    • a few days ago I submitted a story about anonycat.com [anonycat.com], which is an open source anonymous surfing proxy that you CAN read slashdot with (plus you don't even have to download it if you dont want) and it was rejected in favour of a story about Google finding a new way to take a sh#t. oh WELL!

      and BTW anonycat need a few good mirrors, if any slashdotters are interested.
  • tor blacklists :-( (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Adult film producer (866485) <van@i2pmail.org> on Saturday June 11, 2005 @03:27AM (#12787770)
    These lists will become more and more common as people figure out what Tor is.. it's a nice idea but..

    Even freenode has banned known tor connections. But that's what happens when you give 12 and 13 year old uber el3et linux hax0rs more power than they deserve.
  • by Critical_ (25211) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @03:28AM (#12787771) Homepage
    I have been a Tor users for a very long time and, to a certain extent, the fact that it is not very well publicized has kept the system relatively free of the possibilty abuse. When I say possibility of abuse, I am talking about the media saying that Tor is a way to do anonymous torrents of copyrighted material, transferring child porn, etc. As Tor becomes more publicized, will I have to deal with articles from self-proclaimed experts accusing Tor of being a vehicle for such activity? Will I then see some politician try to pass legislation against anonymizer type software? Maybe I'm being alarmist, but these days anything is possible.
    • I am talking about the media saying that Tor is a way to do anonymous torrents of copyrighted material, transferring child porn, etc.

      Just look up.

      KFG
    • Any plans in the TODO for steno-tor in the near future ? I don't really keep up with the dev list to know what's going on with the project anymore.
    • Will I then see some politician try to pass legislation against anonymizer type software?

      Well, it's already happened. I can't remember the details but some court in the USA ruled against some guy who had encrypted stuff on his box *because* he had it. The reason: you have suspicious stuff -> you are guilty.
      So the real question is not "will they pass such legislation" but "how long until the whole world adopts china's standards of sentencing you to death for the mere possession of unapproved software?
      • Uh, no kid. A judge ruled that having encryption software can be used as evidence of intent in a specific child pornography case.

        Let's draw out an analogous case. Person A, who seems to be midly retarded, goes to a store and steals a pack of gum. Person A is arrested. At the trial, Person A pleads "Not of sound mental state." Now suppose the prosecutor gives evidence showing that Person A scored 95% on a quantum mechanics test the day of the theft. Person A is obviously not retarded. The prosecuter
    • Tor is a way to do anonymous torrents of copyrighted material, ...
      I've already heard of people trying to run Bittorrent with Tor. The bandwidth requirements quickly lead to the exit node blocking Bittorrent traffic.
    • What do you use it for?
  • Tor Router App? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by HeX314 (570571)
    Anyone know if there is (or will be) a Linux Tor binary for NAT routers? I have a Linux router, and I'd like to use it as a client in the Tor network but a server for local computers (behind the router).
    • Anyone know if there is (or will be) a Linux Tor binary for NAT routers? I have a Linux router, and I'd like to use it as a client in the Tor network but a server for local computers (behind the router).

      They have the source freely available for you to download and compile.

      Your situation is easily solved by using iptables to only accept incoming connections locally to the server, and open the ports required for the client.
  • by Gopal.V (532678) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @04:20AM (#12787880) Homepage Journal
    Tor uses something called Onion Routing [wikipedia.org]. But interestingly the original system was heavily patented and Tor had to work around all of those with something called "Telescopic Circuits". The problem (as far as my feeble brain understands) is that this is suitable for connection oriented data, but not for routing each packet a different way - seriously I'd love to run Tor as tun0 so that my IP packets head a different way and do point-to-point, but that seems to be a distant dream. Right now it seems to be just protocol proxying.

    And the problem with onion routing is that it is neither high-bandwidth or low-latency - just anonymous. Sharing files over Tor is a blatant misuse - but tracker comm over it is perfectly valid (Azureus already has a plugin - though I like dht better).

    Interestingly, I2P [i2p.net] calls them Garlic routers [i2p.net] (the pun is not lost on some of us).
  • Windows Media Player 10 is 47th.

    "Version 10 combines a compact interface with an innovative DRM technology for enabling music subscriptions that you can take with you on your MP3 player."

    Better DRM features help Microsoft onto the list?

    I wonder how many advertising spots MS buys through PC World?

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 11, 2005 @05:14AM (#12787991)
    It seems one of the first companies to jump on the Tor bandwagon is VPM. They are selling a Linux desktop on a 128MB USB stick [newsforge.com] with everything preconfigured to connect using Tor. Sounds like a neat idea even though you could make it all yourself without paying $45.
    • yes, but part of that $45 is for the USB stick and the rest would cost me far less than my time would cost to do the job myself... and some of that $45 goes to upkeep of TOR servers

      Think about it... $45 is cheap considering what it is. I'd like to see an autorun QEMU CDrom version as well.

  • by XO (250276)
    If they'd just let the things I wanted IRC to do before there was a split from one unified IRC network, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
  • Tor very happy to win award. Make Tor happy. Tor not smash now.
  • Using Tor can help you anonymize web browsing and publishing, instant messaging, IRC, SSH, and more.

    Don't we have enough problems with script kiddies trying to SSH into our machines without making them anonymous?
    • yep,

      Don't we have enough dissidents or journalists who want to tell everybody about our so called 'censorship' on information ?

      --
      Chinese gvt information minister.

      PS: depending on your preferences, replace "Chinese" with "North Korean" or "Iranian" or even "Japanese" or "French" ...
  • It complains that libevent isn't installed, which it IS... Seems the rpms are for fedora, and the source won't compile because of the libevent problem..

    help?
  • by hey (83763) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @09:26AM (#12788602) Journal
    page 1 [pcworld.com]
  • Tor is ok, but (Score:3, Interesting)

    by blue_adept (40915) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @10:37AM (#12788836)
    if you want to surf anonymously without downloading and installing stuff, check out anonycat.

    http://anonycat.com/ [anonycat.com]

    it's open source, so you can download and run it from your own computer if you want, but you can also just surfy anonymously from the main page.

    it's pretty good for viewing slashdot, too, which you can't do with Tor.
    • Re:Tor is ok, but (Score:4, Informative)

      by ldd23 (94367) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @02:26PM (#12789849)
      That's not exactly anonymous. The anonycat server knows your IP address and what page you're browsing. The whole point of the TOR, I2P, etc. anonymizing network systems is that no other entity on the network can determine both your IP address and what content on the network you're using.
  • Every time tor is mentioned on Slashdot, the networks gains speed thanks to a surge in runnin server numbers.
  • Firefox won Product of the Year! Congratulations to the Firefox guys!

    Hopefully this will help further "legitimatize" Firefox to those who are reluctant to switch to something "underground".

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