Lycos Germany to No Longer Store IP Data 237
quaker5567 writes "The Register is carrying the story that Lycos Germany says it will no longer store dynamic IP addresses of its customers. According to the German Tele Services Data Protection and Telecommunications Act, ISPs are only allowed to store communications data for accounting purposes. Apparently, there is no requirement for German ISPs to keep a record of IP addresses. A decision by German ISPs not to keep logs on IP addresses would be extremely controversial as the entertainment industry is increasingly demanding that ISPs disclose the names of suspected file sharers."
Options (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Options (Score:3, Insightful)
So what's your opinion of Morgan Stanley being fined over 1 billion for not keeping email around? It seems like the same sort of case, yet the sentiment there was they were probably guilty, so it was ok. With copyright infringement, the sentiment is, the users are
Re:Options (Score:3)
OH WAIT!
And nobody is "probably guilty," we're all innocent until proven otherwise.
Re:Options (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh shit. They're not storing IP data...? Oh shit.
Cue the Russian hacks-for-hire..."Germany Boys...and quick..."
No ISP is"guilty"if there's no user to incriminate (Score:5, Insightful)
BTW, bear in mind that data protection is nothing less than part of a constitutional civil/human right in most civilized societies, making it illegal (even for the state to tolerate) that unnecessary records are being kept on anyone by public officials or private entities. Thus creating (let alone preserving) traffic logs by flat-fee ISPs (other than for very short-term performance/quality assurance or intrusion detection) that can only be used for spying on users or clandestine gathering of data for unsolicited commercial exploitation have no legitimate purpose whatsoever.
Re:No ISP is"guilty"if there's no user to incrimin (Score:2)
The "safe harbour" provision for common carriers sort of implies that the ISPs are expected to deploy reasonable efforts to keep accurate logs in case of ulterior litigation - these logs are the only way ISPs can 1) prove that the IP address was spoofed or 2) identify who had that IP address when asked by the courts.
Re:Options (Score:5, Interesting)
That's a great point. IMO, the fine is wrong. Here's why: Assuming Morgan Stanley IS guilty of whatever the hell they are accused of doing, keeping records to prove your own guilt is nearly a violation of the 5th amendment. Or, at least, preventing such self-incriminating evidence to come to light could be considered exercising ones right to plead the fifth.
On the other hand, Morgan Stanley is not a person so these rights do not (should not) exist for them so fuck 'em.
In conclusion, my opinion is that ISPs should be required to destroy that data as soon as it's only purpose is to inform against their own customers. I think that because I constantly see advertisements for high speed internet access telling me that I can download music and movies faster that freaking ever. It's almost as if these ISPs are enticing me to download movies and music that I would otherwise not download because I would not have able to because my internet connection would not allow it to be possible. That's close enough to entrapment for me to *form my opinion*.
So, that is my opinion.
Re:Options (Score:3, Informative)
There is no such rule regarding the internet and it's users' IP addresses... at least not yet.
Re:Options (Score:4, Insightful)
In principal, I agree with you. However, as a server admin trying to fight off attacks from the Russians, Koreans and Chinese script kiddies, I disagree.
It's a fool that believes that the internet is like air, in that once you speak something it should evaporate into the air as vibration. A fool. It's not the record companies you should be worried about, it's the script kiddies and the real crack-ers. If you only knew what they do, you would want a way to track them.
I know that the people, not unlike yourself, who use the internet for downloading "Star Wars" think that everything should be anonymous and so forth but, truth be told, there are other uses for bandwidth. Like making money. If you can't track people posthumous, you're dead. It's the last line of defense between you and a would-be cracker. The only thing stopping most people who COULD crack-n-hack is the fact that they know they can be found out.
It would be like you being able to walk around, completely invisible. The thing stopping you from robbing a bank is the cameras right? (oh wait...you've probably got morals)
Of course, I guess you could log IPs from the other side but...but...but...
Re:Options (Score:2)
Re:Options (Score:2)
Re:Options (Score:4, Insightful)
You're wrong on that point, but I certainly can't fault you for that assumption considering where we are.
Of course, I guess you could log IPs from the other side but...but...but...
Hmm... well, this would help you if all you needed/wanted to do was try to stop the next attack. It's useless (as you are well aware) if the ISP that owns that particular IP has no idea who used it. It's also useless in preventing the next attack if it is a dynamic IP unless you are willing to block more than
I empathize with the desire to make the internet a safer place. I really do.
But tracking everyone's actions on the internet does not make the world a better place. It has the potential to make *your* job/bottom line/whatever better and that's not something I care about. (Nothing personal)
Re:Options (Score:2)
Of course, depending on *when* you do it, it could also be considered at attempt to pervert the course of justice and/or destruction of evidence.
Re:Options (Score:2)
I am neither a lawyer nor an American but I see it this way (and suspect the US courts do too, it's the whole basis for discovery in a trial). The relevant clause from the fifth amendment is, "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself". Any document you wrote and which the court requires you to provide is technically the witness, not
Re:Options (Score:5, Insightful)
Nonsense. There is nothing at all similar about the two.
Morgan Stanley was trashing e-mails, likely so that they could not be used against them in court, at least to some extent. It might be argued that if it weren't for the possibility that they could be used against them, it would be something that might be valuable for them to keep.
There is nothing valuable about the IP data for the ISP after some reasonable period of time. It has a very short shelf life. Neither is there anything in it to use against the ISP. There is no reason to keep it longer than necessary. Any ISP who was concerned about the privacy of their customers would dump it once it was clear they had no need of it.
My ISP doesn't keep the information long term. There is no intention to create problems for anyone. It's just that once the data is no longer necessary, it is dumped.
Re:Options (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Options (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Options (Score:3, Insightful)
If you do this, you have to promise not to complain when their DHCP server starts churning out new IP addresses to you ever day or so, screwing the folks who use dynamic DNS to run servers. Just something to keep in mind. Some people do get benefit out of static addresses.
Then resolve... (Score:3, Insightful)
Aside from the fact that this would never happen in the US you've brought up essentially a stupid, non-point.
Re:Options (Score:2)
But if it were, I think the RIAA, the MPAA, or anyone other such organization would want the user's name and address, not the MAC address of the network card on the user's computer.
Re:Options (Score:2)
Re:Options (Score:2)
In other news... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Obsessively? You'd think moving to Germany once would be enough.
Re:In other news... (Score:2, Funny)
Oh, it's actually quite addictive.
Re:In other news... (Score:2, Funny)
Only if you sign up to a 24 month contract, whereby you move to Germany once a month.
Just to play devil's advocate.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Just to play devil's advocate.... (Score:3, Insightful)
They're going to haul their laptop, equiped with Wi-Fi, to some random unsecured access point on the far side of town and do it there. In a situation like that, logs are almost entirely useless.
Re:Just to play devil's advocate.... (Score:5, Insightful)
They're going to haul their laptop, equiped with Wi-Fi, to some random unsecured access point on the far side of town and do it there. In a situation like that, logs are almost entirely useless.
And here it is. Of course this explanation would appear, despite the fact that if this was the case then this story wouldn't be an issue at all. All of the file sharers could just grab their laptops and head to a wifi location.
Of course we know that is nonsense - criminals generally are dumb, and the police endlessly bust child-porn rings, as well as find people who communicate with children through IM services, via trusty IP logs and warrants. Even outside of this, though, forcing a criminal to go to a specific wifi point, itself easily identifiable, is vastly more of a lead to go on than "somebody in the state of New York". If you know that somebody sent a serious death threat from Joe's Coffee Shop at 2 in the afternoon, you can connect the dots and build some evidence.
Re:Just to play devil's advocate.... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Just to play devil's advocate.... (Score:2)
Re:Just to play devil's advocate.... (Score:2)
One Radio Shack salesmoron tried to justify that to me by claiming that if the merchandise is used illegally, it makes it easier for the police to track you down.
One time I bought a battery for a bicycle spedometer at a Radio Shack and when they asked for my name, I told the salesmoron that they didn't need it. As I was walking to my car, I glanced down at the sales slip and did a quick u-turn to go back inside.
I
Re:Just to play devil's advocate.... (Score:2)
Used to, I would give them the number and address of another Radio Shack across town (and use the manager of that store's name).
Re:Just to play devil's advocate.... (Score:2)
>serious than steal music, are they just going to
>look the law enforcement trying to get
>information and shrug?
Don't know, what do the post office do when the police calls and wants to know what was written in letters they delivered, they need it for this murder case?
2 Sides to Every Coin (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:2 Sides to Every Coin (Score:2)
In most cases, I bet one to two days retention would be more than sufficient.
I for one... (Score:5, Insightful)
On the minus side, it is very likely some kind of political backlash will occur and a law will be passed requiring ISPs to keep much more detailed records than they do even now...
Re:I for one... (Score:2)
Re:I for one... (Score:2)
The downside is that such ISPs will have no ways to identify customers with infected Windows machines, disconnect them (or put them into some kind of "walled garden"), and tell the customers to clean up their PCs.
Sad state of affairs (Score:5, Insightful)
It is quite a sad state of affairs when a company does something that is popular with the people, and yet there is controversy because another company doesn't want it to be done.
This is the most artificial sense of the word "controversy," because it is completely artificial.
Sad, sad state of affairs.
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:2)
I think a larger proportion of the "populace at large" uses P2P.
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:5, Insightful)
Can we PLEASE for once keep the kiddie porn stuff out of an argument? I'm really getting sick and tired of the 'me too - I'm on the right side of the fence - I'm against kiddie porn' crap.
You know, it's pretty easy to win any argument on the planet by pulling out the child pornography card. If anyone challenges you, all you have to do is say that your challenger supports child pornography.
How about this. We do the following:
- make cars illegal. It has turned out that nearly 99.5% of all kiddie porn is at some point transported by a car, therefore if we make cars illegal we can illiminate child pornography.
- make incandescent light illegal. 99.5% of all kiddie porn is at one time or another observed by incandescent light. If we illegalize incandescent light, that should take care of that problem.
- require the Postal Office to keep a perfect log of every piece of mail that they sent. 99.5% of hard-copy kiddie porn is being handled by good ole USPS, better keep track of that.
- do I need to go on?
Now, everybody point at me and scream 'OOOHHH!!!'.
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:2)
The problem is that the ISPs are all too ready to just give the info when requested, without a warrant. Heck, they sold my email address the same day I opened the account, before I was even connected (oh, but, you can always "opt-out" - fuck you, I shouldn't have to opt out you motherfuckers). Haven't checked my ISP email in ove
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:2)
U, dude, I'm posting FROM CANADA, and Videotron was arguing before the courts that it should be able to release this information.
The courts disagreed.
Just because its law doesn't mean they're always going to follow it, otherwise we wouldn't need courts. Also, CRIA is definitely going to try again, and t
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:2)
First off, IP addresses are not evidence that will result in a conviction in court. Just ask the guy in Britain who got off because he was able to argue that "a virus must have done it". Yes, it was his computer. Yes it was his IP. But prove that it was him? Nope. You need a lot more than an ip address matched with an account-holders' name for criminal liability, same as you need a lot more than a license
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:2)
To use your example, if the person hasn't reported the card stolen, its his signature, and he still has it, ...
BTW: carpet fibre evidence is not admissible any more in most criminal cases because its been proven to be totally unreliable.
As for the "account for actions on the night in question", nobody is required to. That's one of the nice things
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:2)
All right, then. Let's apply a little traceability to cars, since 99.5%* of children who are kidnapped to make porn are transported via car. Everyone who buys a car must submit their fingerprints to the government, and every car must have a GPS unit installed to record the car's position
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:2)
Oh, sorry.. I guess that's a little too much traceability for you. Interesting. If I were running for office against you, I might suggest that you had something to hide - after all, I'd say, who but a criminal would be opposed to a simple database check on people who want to use the internet, to make sure that known
Entertainment? (Score:5, Insightful)
Entertainment industry be damned. What we should worry about is network and systems security, DDoS, botnets, zombies, and of course SPAM and PORN. I hope we will not have to block *.de on our SMTP relays and TCP/IP firewalls like we had with *.cn and *.ne. Hopefully Germans will know how to be responsible with their privacy and lack of control. Only time will tell.
Re:Entertainment? (Score:2)
I hope we will not have to block *.de on our SMTP relays and TCP/IP firewalls like we had with *.cn and *.ne.
You probably mean the RIPE address blocks assigned to Germany. All german ISPs offer .com/.net/.org and all other global TLDs as well to their customers.
Re:What? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What? (Score:2)
whoo. who. stop there. Hang on a minute. You're a normal woman who likes programming. Yeah, right. sure. Come on now Dave, its not funny anymore, I know you're a bloke pretending to be a woman on slashdot. I've seen it before, it won't get you a date and no-one will think its clever.
On the other hand, a kyu of 20 is better than my Go ranking. Oh, and show me a woman who doesn't
Potential to become a hotspot (Score:4, Insightful)
If this IP block is known to be safe from identification, its certainly possible that crackers could choose to scan the area more heavily for exploits and rootable machines, making the block a source for malicious traffic.
On the other hand, it should make quite a selling point for tech-savvy customers in the area when in comparison with other ISP's. This may be effective protection against copyright lawsuits, providing enough obscurity that the regional enforcement agency choose not to pursue cases.
It should be interesting to see if this trend continues to other ISP's, and what effects occur as a result of this change
Law Enforcement? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Law Enforcement? (Score:2)
A German friend had exactly this problem: some guys bought online services from a company and charged his credit card for it (id theft). The only trail leading to the fraudster is his dynamic IP address stored on the credit card processor. The police has no chance to track the IP down to the subscriber if his ISP doesn't store the logs for a reasonable period of time (typically 8 weeks or so).
So, basically, protecting privacy is a great idea. But not storing such data for at least a small period of time i
I pledge allegiance to the flag, Michael Jackson (Score:3, Funny)
Alleged child molester, RIAA recording artist, same thing. [google.com]
Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:5, Insightful)
People like Gestapo-minister Otto Schily and his lackey Brigitte Zypries as minister of justice
don't give a flying f... about the constitiuon and everybody applauds.
Besides from DMCA-like plans to give "Copyright holders" the right to request customer data from ISPs,
they are pushing laws to require ISPs to not only store IPs but also all communication data including visited URLs. email header info, IM data, SMSes, telephone connection data and much more stuff.
The only thing they aren't sure about is how many years ISPs and telcos will be required to store all that information and who pays for it.
Btw. they are also pushing to build nationwide DNA- and fingerprint databases.
The East-German STASI and the Gestapo would have had wet dreams about the infrastructure that is going to be created.
I think it isn't necessary to point out that all this is done "to fight islamistic terrorism"
and to "protect our freedom".
Apropos: because of their severeness the anti-terror laws passed after 9/11 were limited in time and to be reevaluated after five years.
Since they were such a success (not proven), now minster Schiliy and others suggest to keep them forever without a mandatory reevaluation and even extend their scope/power.
Do I even have to conclude this rant by saying that I am much more worried about
the actions of our politicans than about terrorist attacks?
But hey, as long as you have nothing to hide..
Re:Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:3, Insightful)
And the worst thing is, Schily backs those antiterror laws about like that:
Schily stands somewhere in the wood and repeatly hits a drum.
The Germans ask: why are you doing this?
Schily answers: to keep the elephants... err... terrorists away
Germans: but there are no terrorists in Germany
Schily: see, it's working!
Re:Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:2, Insightful)
Examples: When was the last time you have seen a public CCTV in a German street or public place? In London (where I live) there is nearly no street left without one, and the Authorities now want to introduce microphones as well.
Yesterday, we read [slashdot.org] about a Professor being fired for stating his opinions in public. In
Re:Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:2)
When was the last time you have seen a public CCTV in a German street or public place?
Hah! What about the toll collect system on the hiways? There are already plans to extend this to monitor ALL cars in addition to trucks; and not only for toll collecting purposes but also for the so called anti-terror laws.
And what about all those surveilliance cams in the public transportation system (trains, stations, ...). Are they used just to thwart vandalism?
Re:Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:4, Interesting)
That's right, they are not that common here, although the usual suspects every now and then talk about installing some more.
Yesterday, we read about a Professor being fired for stating his opinions in public To get somewhat offtopic:
Reading that I was upset like probably most people but thinking about it later, I really would like some more information about that case.
There was an interesting comment on the professor's blog that he announced (probably to the university and even to the Spanish RIAA equivalent as he said he told them about the lecture) to download some copyrighted works and then explaining why that wasn't illegal.
Now, if he was wrong about it being legal (who knows..) or it being doubtful, perhaps the university was threatened to be held liable for knowingly supportig copyright infringement.
So maybe this was more a cover-your-ass-reaction from the university('s legal department) than censorship.
Who knows (I don't understand Spanish) if they said something like: "Uh, well, go ahead talking , but you are not allowed to download Episode III using the university's network".
Don't know if that happend, but in that case it wouln't surprise (and upset) me that much..
As to the personal ID cards. I don't think the nationwide DNA databases you mention will be coming anytime soon
I didn't mention the ID cards. I was more going in the direction of lowering the requirements for taking DNA samples of suspects,
like dropping the need for an judge to approve this, widening the number of cases that allow taking DNA samples.
I read an interview with minister Zypries where she herself had to admit after continuous inquiry that her proposed law changes
would technically allow the taking and storing of DNA samples in cases like repeated shoplifting or even repeated riding-the-bus-withou-paying.
Well, and the public support for all this after the murder of Mooshammer a few months ago..
(To paraphrase comedian (is there something like "political cabaret artist" in English?) Matthias Richling:
"With all those supporters for extending DNA-collection jumping out of the woodwork and the backing they get now,
you could think that Mooshamer was murdered by a hired killer of the CSU"
P.S. I also don't think that the Personlausweis (without RFID chip for fingerprints and DNA)is a bad idea; not sure about the legal requirement to have one, though.
Re:Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:2)
There are plenty of copyrighted materials that you can downlo
Re:Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:2)
Yes, I know,
And because we aren't the only ones that know about that, I am guessing that he most likely didn't inform that Spanish RIAA-like group:
"Hey, I'm going to download the latest Debian and show that it is legal. Eat this!"
That wouldn't be much of an issue, more likely is something like:
"Hey, I own $CD with $track from $artist and I am going to download $track from P2P in class and show that it is legal because of x,y
Re:Privacy and copyright in German law (Score:2)
Meanwhile, spammers rejoice (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Meanwhile, spammers rejoice (Score:2)
Loss of Internal Audit Trail (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Loss of Internal Audit Trail (Score:2)
Re:Loss of Internal Audit Trail (Score:2)
A port scan isn't an attack or a theft of services.
If a port scan is an attack or not depends on the legislation of at least two countries (which could be the same): The country of the scanned and the country of the scanner.
Logically, a port scan shouldn't be considered an attack, since all it does is discovering services that a machine offers to the outside (wether on purpose or unintentionally is irrelevant here). But laws are not always logical, right?
Re:Loss of Internal Audit Trail (Score:2)
Oh, the irony... (Score:2, Interesting)
Oh, wait. They've seen this before, haven't they?
-- Alice Uber Deutchland
Re:Oh, the irony... (Score:2)
This is complying with German law, FWIH (Score:5, Interesting)
These actions would just be extending that to the ISPs themselves. If they have no need for the data, it must be disposed of, or not collected in the first place.
Of course, given that this means there is no accountability through the ISP for the actions of users, I know I won't be allowing random IPs from Germany to connect to my email servers!
Re:This is complying with German law, FWIH (Score:3, Informative)
In other words I would not be surprised to see this extend in some form or other to ISP's in other parts of Europe as well.
Re:This is complying with German law, FWIH (Score:3, Interesting)
Information can't be collected without your consent, and can only be used for the purpose for which it was collected. The fine us up to $100,000.00 per INCIDENT, so keeping excessive data on just 10 people could in theory cost a company a million bucks.
Yeah, but what if... (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't believe all this crap I'm hearing about "what if somebody does something bad and the ip address isn't logged" shit.
What fucking country did you grow up in where monitoring your every move IN CASE you MIGHT break a law was tolerated. When did we let our privacy and freedom get JACKED from us?
Real IDs, IP monitoring, etc... This kind of shit was UNTHINKABLE here in the US before the 1980's, and now, because we believe everything we're told about bad things happening if we don't do it, we've given away all of our freedoms and tolerate monitoring and intrusion that was considered science fiction material 20 years ago.
Other countries are NOT following our example- Spain didn't turn itself into a police state after the train bombings, politicians there went as far as to say "we are NOT at war", whereas, hear in the US, politicians say just the opposite, and we buy that shit!!!
Land of the Free, my ass....
</flame>
Re:Yeah, but what if... (Score:5, Funny)
Your lack of docility has been noted, along with your IP address. Please be advised that to continue to disagree with the State is an abomination in the sight of God, and is prohibited under the same law that requires approved identification for airplane travel.
You are ill. For your safety and convenience, please take increased doses of the low-level neurotoxins we have been marketing as artificial sweeteners, right away.
The Constitution is only an historical document, it is not relevant to your life. Ignore it. This is in the interest of National Security, Democracy and Freedom.
Calm down. Have another diet cola. Watch Fox News.
Sleeeep...
Re:Yeah, but what if... (Score:2)
Logging of IP addresses won't prevent (or aid) monitoring. What it will do is assist in after-the-event investigation of an incident.
It will be almot as bad as the real world!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Can you imagine all the possible marketing information I squandered selfishly by not informing a central database about this action (this report not included). The cash I used was totally UNTRACEABLE!!! it could have come from anywhere. Not only that, but the person behind the counter was happy to undertake the transaction without me identifying myself (obviously some kind of terrorist).
I could have been going to use the milk for a BOMB!, would the authorities have had any way to check this? NO!!!!
When did everything become like this?
Oh wait - it has always been like this in Democracies.
Holger Voss (Score:3, Interesting)
"no requirement to keep a record" (Score:2, Informative)
Apparently, there is no requirement for German ISPs to keep a record of IP addresses
There is not only no requirement to keep the data, the ISPs (and everybody else) are prohibited to keep personal data (which includes anything that might identify an individual) unless immediately required for conducting their business or explicitely allowed by the customer. In other words, people are suing because the providers are not complying to German Datenschutz (data protection) laws.
How would it be controversial? (Score:4, Informative)
How is it controversial to treat customers with respect by not recording information not absolutely necessary to provide service to them? When I go into Office Depot, I can buy supplies, pay cash and leave. They don't ask me my address, my religion or my political opinions; all they care about is that my money is the right color, as it should be. Other business should consider doing the same thing: If you don't need the information in order to provide the product or service, don't ask for it. If you don't need to retain the information once the product or service is provided, don't keep it.
I have run my businesses that way for years; it saves a lot of paperwork hassles. Too many businesses see additional information collected from customers as a business asset they can sell. Which turns it into more data that can be prostituted into use for other purposes, not all of them good. Correction, most of them definitely bad.
Re:I'm moving (Score:1, Funny)
Re:I'm moving (Score:2)
Yeah, as in choosing to invade Russia on the very same day that Napoleon did, June 22nd.
Re:I'm moving (Score:2)
Re:Nazi Germany did NOT start with Poland. (Score:2)
Re:Incase if gets slashdotted (Score:2)
Tentacle?! The rest of the article has pretty good english, so I'm puzzled by this odd interjection of what appears to be machine translation.
Re:Incase if gets slashdotted (Score:2)
Re:Incase if gets slashdotted (Score:2)
Re:Where do I sign up? (Score:2, Funny)
Germany, I think.
Re:The sword cuts both ways... (Score:4, Insightful)
24/7 camera surveillance in your (not "you", specifically) would be another.
Re:The sword cuts both ways... (Score:2)
This doesn't hinder real, criminal investigations. Getting a the person allegedly behind an IP address isn't good enough, too ea
Re:The sword cuts both ways... (Score:2)
We should also keep video security footage archived indefinately to allow us to track the movements of suspects before they were suspects.
Not indefinitely. That's exactly the rub here. Keeping records for short periods of time is probably okay (8 weeks or so), allowing for criminal investigations to trace people and gather evidence within a reasonable time frame.
Everything longer than that would be opening pandora's box to all kinds of state monitoring, profiling, and all that fascist crap that so man
Re:The sword cuts both ways... (Score:2)
It's just like screaming "if you allow that, the terrorists will already have won" - only that it also seems to work on Slashdot, where people are (usually) able to see through the "terrorism" argument at least.
The funny thing about all this is that the ISP is merely trying to *comply* with *existing laws*. It's not even like they have a choice in the matter reall
Re:The sword cuts both ways... (Score:2)
Maybe "you people" don't convict them, but we do .
Re:Great. (Score:2)