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Patents IBM

IBM Calls for Patent Reform 292

daria42 writes "IBM has called for tighter regulation of patents and a review of intellectual property ownership issues in collaborative software development. The company is one of the largest patent-holders in the United States. IBM executive Jim Stallings said examining patents for prior art should not only be the job of the patent office but that the wider community should be involved. Stallings also called on the industry to stop what he calls "bad behaviour" by companies who either seek patents for unoriginal work or collect and hoard patents."
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IBM Calls for Patent Reform

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  • by foobsr ( 693224 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:03AM (#12199246) Homepage Journal
    ... is that "they" have quite a wide scope of view.

    Presumably a prerequisite for "culture" in general.

    CC.
  • by NZheretic ( 23872 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:12AM (#12199297) Homepage Journal

    On February 24, 2005 [blogspot.com] I tried to pose some questions to USPTO [uspto.gov] On-Line chat for Independent Inventors today, however the digichat java applet does not appear work with any combination of Linux Galeon/Mozilla/Firefox jdk1.5.0/j2re1.4.2_07 or MacOSX Firefox/Safari. Here is what I tried to ask:

    I understand that the discovery of prior art and the evaluation of the obviousness of an invention are difficult tasks for the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) patent application examiners to perform. The percentage of patents being overturned under the scrutiny of the courts leads me to believe that the process is not quite as accurate as could be desired. In a few recent cases the existence of publicly accessible digital content has played a part in disclosing prior art. The public, technical and scientific communities use of Internet has to a large extent replaced printed media such as journals for the public disclosure of new ideas. To what extent does the current USPTO patent application examination process take into account public accessible website content? Do the patent examiners currently use Internet search engines such as Google ( http://www.google.com [google.com] ) to locate instances of prior art? Is the changeable and unverifiable nature of some digital content a barrier to its being cited as prior art in the patent application examination process?

    The USPTO patent application examiners task could be made more reliable if the examiners could consult one or more public online registries that document cases of prior art and public discoveries. The online registries could provide a means for the public to retroactively point to cases of preexisting prior art for pending patent applications and a means to proactively document publicly known ideas and concepts. Although websites and digitally stored content in general is changeable, individual entries and changes in an online registry could be legally authenticated by means of digital timestamping ( http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=234 7 [rsasecurity.com]). An online registry could be hosted by the USPTO as an adjunct to the existing online public patent and patent pending databases. The USPTO could also publicly recognize other individual registries hosted by third parties such as a commercial entity or a non-profit community similar to Wikipedia ( http://www.wikipedia.org/ [wikipedia.org] ). An individual adding an entry to such a publicly online registry does not involve granting that individual any form of monopoly, therefore the action need not have any artificial barrier involving fees or payments. Would the existence of digitally timestamped public content overcome any objections by the USPTO to its citing as prior art? Has the USPTO any plans to add some form of publicly accessible feedback mechanism to the patent application process?

    It has been nine years since the USPTO updated the Guidelines for Computer-Related Inventions ( http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/hearings/soft ware/analysis/computer.html [uspto.gov] ). Since that time has the USPTO undertaken, commissioned or evaluated any studies on the effects that granting software related patents has had on the progress of science, useful arts and the software industry in general? If no such study has been performed or evaluated, why not? Can the USPTO point to any instances where the granting of software related patents has been an actual benefit to the progress of science, useful arts and the software industry in general? In a similar vein, can the USPTO point to any instances where the granting of business method related patents has been an actual benefit to the progress of science, useful arts and industry in general?

  • by bardothodal ( 864753 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:13AM (#12199298) Homepage Journal
    I thought IBM had more patents than any other entity. What does it say when the wlfe complains the hen house is too wide open?
  • Simple. Be done with patents alltogether. Businesses have proved they can't use them properly anyways so the real harm here is that the smaller companies... MAY STAND A CHANCE....

    Tom
  • Re:Hello kettle... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by LiquidCoooled ( 634315 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:17AM (#12199317) Homepage Journal
    Maybe, if your such a big company and actively have researchers doing things, then maybe, just maybe those 10 patents are actually justified.

    They are wanting to rid the world of rediculous patents, not totally shutdown the patening process.
  • Re:Hello kettle... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by tomstdenis ( 446163 ) <tomstdenis@gmGINSBERGail.com minus poet> on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:20AM (#12199333) Homepage
    Have you performed a patent search in the last 15 years? ...

    People patent basically anything. I'd be surprised to learn that LibTomCrypt didn't violate at least a half dozen patents. Heck the kernel probably violates a good dozen or more.

    Companies like MSFT and IBM patent every itty-bitty thing they do in the hopes of using it to crush competition. Oh, we put the chip on at an angle, must patent that because it will give us a 0.00001% market boost!! yes!!!

    Tom
  • Related article (Score:5, Interesting)

    by whovian ( 107062 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:23AM (#12199345)
    Yesterday's New York Times had a related article [nytimes.com] (do not pass Go, sell your soul). One of the points was that IBM is sharing some of its patents so that others may build on them. Collaboration is more economically efficient (ie. profitable) in the global business-space.
  • by putaro ( 235078 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:24AM (#12199349) Journal
    Prior art challenges can go back to the applicant who can then put together a rebuttal. They want the patent, let them do the work. Also, more money will go to the patent lawyers, so this proposal is sure to be adopted!
  • Re:Hello kettle... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:25AM (#12199355)

    Companies like MSFT and IBM patent every itty-bitty thing they do

    Can you give a specific example of IBM doing this? And don't forget that you can't count the 500 patents IBM gave up voluntarily recently.

  • by lmnfrs ( 829146 ) <lmnfrs@noSPaM.gmail.com> on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:26AM (#12199360) Journal
    You're right about the flood of prior art challenges that would come up, but in many cases it wouldn't be hard to see which patents needed closer examination. In the public patent review system, there could be a choice: patent is 'new' or 'prior art exists'. Then if the patent office sees that 80% of the reponses say 'prior art exists' that tips them off that the patent is widely believed to be invalid and probably should be investigated.
    What about idiots and others who wrongly affect the ratio of new:exists? A simple account system could be created. You need an account to comment on the validity of a patent, and if a person is discovered to repeatedly be wrong about the final decisions they could be given warnings, then their accounts could be disabled, for some time period or permanently.. That's another discussion though.
  • by krishn_dev ( 781739 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:29AM (#12199373)
    Yes, but you have to look at their contribution to the computing world as well.

    IBM is, for sure, one of the best organizations striving for excellent quality hardware and software . Their contribution comes through highly professional and research oriented team (unlike MS). They indeed have invented loads of things. Just google a bit and u get their achievemnets and contributions.

    Calling IBM wolf is not correct because of the same reason. (I might have agreed if u use this for MS, who was trying to patent IPV6, some time ago).

  • by bmw ( 115903 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:38AM (#12199416)
    Don't forget what IBM is. They're still a business and businesses exist to do one thing: Make money. Just because they've become a knight in shining armor for the open source community doesn't mean that they aren't still acting for their own benefit. It just so happens that they saw a way to both benefit and help the community. There was a time when IBM was not such a friendly entity in the community and there's no guarantee things won't change again. In fact, it's just the opposite. Change is inevitable so don't put too much faith in IBM always acting benevolently.
  • Concerned parties (Score:2, Interesting)

    by galdur ( 829400 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:43AM (#12199440) Homepage
    Part of the brokenness stems from the fact that concerned parties (e.g. Open Source developers) may not have vested interests or be aware until after the patent has been granted and the owning company goes after those developers.

    Shouldn't the patent office be involve and look at claims of prior art from defendants in patent cases, especially when the claims haven't been tested before?

    What IBM's proposing is more akin to a polling architecture and I think it sounds rather inefficient.

    Best of all, throw software patents away.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:44AM (#12199448)
    Most of them have been pressured into filing patent applications instead of just writing papers. Run a uspto query on your favorite researcher and see. It seems to have kicked off about two years ago so you see the most of the stuff show up in the published applications search. A lot of them seem to be based on papers written and published before the application. I wonder how they pull that off. Earlier provisional patent applications perhaps?

    I myself keep a file of patents I think are interesting for one reason or another. Usually it's patents I think are on prior art. There a couple of issues here. One is that it's extremely difficult to read a patent. They're not the most clear technical explanations sometimes. This makes it a problem in proving that it is actually prior art and not just some minor enhancement or some special case. But that same vagueness lets patent owners sue anybody and everybody for patent infringement. Sure, you could eventually prevail but not everybody has the resources to defend themselves. I think we need to shift the burden of proof somewhat. Perhaps create a patent status that allows a challenges to be filed. The patent would remain valid but extra steps would have to be taken before anyone tried to enforce the patent. This could be abused by patent challengers but you could take care of it by requiring a bond of of sorts. Individuals can't afford this but the the EFF or IBM could.

  • by erroneus ( 253617 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:52AM (#12199505) Homepage
    I have a little trouble with IBM's stand on this in terms of motivation. What business edge would this give to them?

    Their not-so-low profile thier sponsorship of open source stuff, releasing all of their patents to OSS projects and their professed patent protection (that was IBM right?) leads me to think they are attempting to woo certain crowds. These same crowds who are a bit fearful of patent issues with OSS perhaps?

    Maybe they are truly pushing for an OSS marketplace... for IBM, it would tend to make a great deal of sense since they are primarily a service oriented business now. They still have products to sell, but mostly, it's the service agreements that make their bread and butter. If they get everyone thinking that way, it would put a serious hurt on people who sell software as a product.

    Generally, I am inclined to agree with this perspective on things -- what slashdotter wouldn't I suppose? But if they are willing to divest themselves of thier patent practices, I wonder what else they have in mind to follow-up on this? After all, it is "patent trading" that often keeps big businesses from tearing at each others throats with patent litigation every 5 minutes. It has been generally accepted practice not to question or try each others' patents as they will be exposed to the light and probably die from exposure. This serves only to keep the little guy from growing though...

    well anyway... any guesses what IBM will follow with next?
  • by jonwil ( 467024 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:57AM (#12199537)
    For cases like that where building a model may be cost-prohibitive (or unfesable for other reasons), require a blueprint or something. Even if you cant actually afford to build the new thing you have invented and want to patent, if you dont at least have some kind of blueprints, schematics or designs then you probobly shouldnt get the patent.
    At minumum, such a proposal would mean that you are showing the patent exact steps to build/make whatever it is you want to patent.

    For software patents, they should require that actual runnable code implementing what it is you want to patent be submitted to the patent office.

    For example, if you have created a new compression algorithim for video data, you have to show something that can compress and uncompress video with your new codec. I would even go so far as to suggest that perhapst this "reference implementation" of the patented item should go on file with the patent. (although whether that is fesable would depend on what it is that has been "invented" and what the working example is/does).

    If the patent makes claims over things that the submitted code doesnt implemented, the patent should be rejected (or the claims that arent present in the code should be rejected)

    This requirement would not be overly harsh to those who dont have lots of money since (unlike the cost to demonstrate a new kind of sattelite or whatever), the cost to produce a working prototype implementation of a new software thing you want to patent is not huge.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 11, 2005 @08:58AM (#12199543)
    This is a VERY good point. A company that I worked for ran into problems, for example, where we were applying for a patent on a truly unique and innovative process. The problem was tha the examiners didn't understand it well enough to distinguish it from other patents that seemed, to them, to establish prior art. In the end, they relented under the weight of our responses from PHDs who disagreed with them, but that means that someone who should NOT have gotten the patent probably would too.

    Now, if the prior art "volunteers" are carefully selected for specific areas of expertise, then this might work. There are precidents for this (e.g. public defenders, who are often regular lawyers with a normal practice, being paid only enough to cover minimal expenses).
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 11, 2005 @09:10AM (#12199607)
    The blue chips are starting to realize that there is the potential of a stealth bomb which can't be defused with reciprocal licensing. The companies which are actually manufacturing and trading things are at a deadly disadvantage compared to pure intellectual property shops. If you don't build anything, you don't need a license. If you thought that Microsoft, IBM et al are bad news patent-wise, watch until SCO-like lawyer-run patent hoarders without real products turn the market upside down.
  • My solution (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Virtex ( 2914 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @09:16AM (#12199639)
    Reforming the patent system should be something that requires less work from everyone involved. My solution is to limit the number of patents a company or individual may own. Set it to something low -- say 5 patents -- and anyone who has more than that must pick the 5 they want to keep and give up the rest. When a patent is given up, it becomes public domain and cannot be patented again. If a company wants to patent something new, but is already maxed out on their patents, they must choose one of their existing patents to give up before patenting the new idea. This would force companies to only patent their best ideas, and would prevent them from hoarding patents.
  • by olddotter ( 638430 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @09:20AM (#12199685) Homepage
    Frankly I wouldn't be suprised if that alone wouldn't regect 70% of applications.
  • patent system change (Score:4, Interesting)

    by iive ( 721743 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @09:26AM (#12199714)
    Well the patent system does need a change.
    I was wondering what do you think about such change:

    Only an limited number of patents to be granted every year. Let's say 500 patents.

    This way only really important inventions (not innovations) will be honored with `limited goverment granted monopoly`. The patent office will throw faster the obvious and broad patents, and will have more time to focus on the really good candidates.

    As a side effect the less probability of granting patent will discourage the firms to fill as many patents as possible.

    The really good thing is that there will be an limited number of patents that could be checked more easy (e.g. only 10'000 valid patents at any time)

    The only question is what to do with already granted patents. I think that limiting their life would be good idea. For example cutting to half the rest of their life would be an good option. So if patent is just issued it will have 10 years, but if it would have 4 more years left, it will last only for 2.

  • by ozmanjusri ( 601766 ) <aussie_bob.hotmail@com> on Monday April 11, 2005 @09:41AM (#12199824) Journal
    This will seriously hamper inovation BAD IDEA

    Why?
  • by Lonewolf666 ( 259450 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @10:02AM (#12199960)
    I'd like to add one more point:
    If later research proves that the proposed implementation does not work, the patent should be rejected retroactively.
  • by Electric Eye ( 5518 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @10:10AM (#12200035)
    I have to come to the defense of the Patent Office on one public case last week. The morons at Smuckers tried to patent the "process" of sealing the edges of its Crustables "crustless" PB&J sandwich. The patent office told them to go take a hike, as the process has existed for years (ravioli, pie crusts, etc). They appealed to a US district court and the case was tossed. Score one for common sense.

    However, it's pretty clear that things have gotten out of hand. Too many people were/are making too much money on bogus patents and now that you have more lawyers involved, we're seeing what happens. As with most thing, they (lawyers, sharks, ambulanc chasers) destroy it.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 11, 2005 @10:24AM (#12200167)
    IANALOAK (of any kind), but the scenario you described is an abuse of the patent/judicial system, not the scenario it is designed to protect. (Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.) Eliminating the fees may help people such as you describe. Another improvement would be to change the judicial system to minimize the costs of defending yourself in lawsuits. (Cost is an impediment to the poor-- those the system should be defending.) Additionally, any proof of prior art should be a slam-dunk in court, with automatic remission of costs, plus a penalty for frivilous lawsuit.

    Said impoverished developer could have benefitted from a well-implemented patent system. By patenting his innovations, he could do like MySQL, giving away a FOSS version under a GPL, with dual licensing for commercial application.

    In fact, patents (if done right) should be a benefit to any developer. They should stimulate people to work hard at developing new ideas, so when they share them, there can be some personal reward (or at least a payback to cover the investment of time and effort).

    In summation, the problem isn't with the patent concept itself, but with its implementation-- benefitting the powerful to the expense of the individual. I agree with you that the way the system currently works, it is detrimental to society as a whole as well as individuals and even corporations generally. Small changes could make a huge difference, IMHO.
  • by ites ( 600337 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @10:50AM (#12200405) Journal
    I'd add that patents on ideas that are highly likely to be reinvented by other teams are also highly likely to be unoriginal - with or without prior art.

    Patents on such ideas do not just curtail the economically-sound interchange of such ideas in the future, they actively remove people's rights to the fruit of their own labour, the copyrighted works they produce independently.

    A broad software patent can, at a stroke, turn a life's work into something with no value. Unlike patents on physical inventions, this is not unlikely... in fact it's going to become more and more common to hear about such stories.

    The patent offices are, basically, in a corrupt symbiosis with patent lawyers, stealing ideas from the "commons", and turning the real inventors into peons. It's a classic abuse of the "tragedy of the commons", in which corrupt officials argue that the commons need "their protection" when in fact there is a well-functioning economy already in place.

    It's much expropriating property - someone's house, or a park, or public lands - for business reasons.

    Parkinson's law: officialdom will always expand to consume its budget. In the case of the patent offices, the budget is limitless.

    The patent offices, and the patent lawyers, are IMHO the real villains of the affair. I am quite surprised that no-one has yet launched a lawsuit against the USPTO for larceny.

    I don't think you will get many useful replies from the patent lawyers who read this.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 11, 2005 @11:14AM (#12200625)
    Hmmm, I work at one of those "top customers" - an investment bank - and they are extremely pro-open source.

    Not to deny that IBM has possibly conflicting attitudes to open source, and of course they have a huge patent portfolio. It's a big company with history.

    But if you look at where IBM is heading for, it's definitely banking on using Linux, Apache, and other open source as its future platform.

    Look at the value IBM gets from Linux, and the amount it spends on it. Now compare the value IBM gets from its own operating systems, and the amount it spends on those. You very quickly see that Linux is incredibly profitable in the sense of creating business at a low cost.

    Stallings is possibly presenting a strategy, rather than a current reality, but it's a strategy that makes business sense.
  • IAAPL (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 11, 2005 @11:55AM (#12201152)
    IAAPL. You should be arguing that patents in general do more harm than good.

    Why should software authors have to worry less about patents than independent mechanical designers, chemists, or electrical engineers?

    What's the difference between your hypothetical and a guy who designs a new engine on paper, proposes a new synthesis on paper, or sketches a new circuit on paper, and posts it on the web, whereupon some third party company picks it up and mass produces it, and the guy is threatened for inducing patent infringement (yes, there is such a thing)?

    There is not much difference. I have heard the arguments that say software is special for various reasons, but you have to have already drunk the koolaid to buy them.

    Remember, if you want to take the position that patents in general are bad, that's a very legitimate position.

    But there is very little that is special about software patents. All inventions are mere conceptions, and it's all done on paper (except for drugs, which have their own ethics/cost/benefit problems).

    Just FYI, in the U.S., there is a special "personal use" escape clause for "business methods" (which would be most algorithm/data structure type things). It is insanely worded and also limited. 35 U.S.C. 273. You probably want to know how that works. The same kind of "prior user" defense exists in more rational form in many countries.

    I'm sorry. I can accept that patents in general may harm the penniless dreamer. But software is not special, and there is no credible reason to exclude it. The (unproven) net benefit is the same as it is with all other technologies(a disclosure for exclusivity bargain).

    Freedom of expression - a red herring. Free speech is a very good reason to restrict copyright, especially for artistic works. However, software was treated as "expression" as a convenient legal fiction to shoehorn it into the existing copyright laws. But really, that makes no sense. You can't argue simultaneously that an algorithm is both a discovered law of nature and unique personal expression.

    In summary, patents *are* a threat, but a 200-year old one that every other kind of technology has had to deal with. The reason to change is that the disclosure isn't doing anyone any good, so we (society) are giving something (a patent) for nothing (a worthless disclosure). That is not unique to software.
  • by David Off ( 101038 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @12:08PM (#12201321) Homepage
    The Google filing on the 31st of March for a Patent on Information retrieval based on historical data [uspto.gov] reminds me of a lot that is wrong with BP and software patents.


    The filing looks like they had an on-line brainstorming session about all of the historical data that could be discovered about a Web document. Someone then wrote this up with some waffly tech language and came up with a few formula and then filed as a huge patent that appears more to be staking out a massive claim on the search engine algorithm space. I guess that this patent is about having bargaining chips with MSN Search and Yahoo! when the great search engine shakeout comes. I don't blaim Google for using the system as it stands; now they have shareholders they have fidicual duty to be evil :-).


    There are some interesting ideas in the Google Patent and a much narrower filing with some specifics might merit a patent but talk like: a link has a creation and eventual destruction date, the rate of link creation to a document may be an indicator of the document's freshness, doesn't strike me as an invention more handwaving.


    Given that the patent office is not up to the task at least restrict the lifetime of software patents to around 4 years.

  • by Tuffnutz ( 195983 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @12:10PM (#12201339)
    Why should patents be transferable? The only real reason for buying patents is to build legal ammunition to take down rivals; ie. to suppress competition.

    If the original inventor can't be bothered to enforce his own invention, it should become public domain.

    Plus, this would kill off those companies whose sole business plan is to buy patents and sue people; nobody would miss those companies.
  • by UnanimousCoward ( 9841 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @12:36PM (#12201670) Homepage Journal
    Is this a troll? Can I call bullshit? IBM is itself was a mafioso-like offender of patent strategy. They have been known to go to a company armed with their patent arsenal saying: "you are violating a through z" forcing a company to do an exhaustive time-consuming, money-spending investigation. A company eventually ends up paying IBM what amounts to "protection money." The following statement from RTFA should tell you give you some hints about their continuing practices:

    IBM was granted 3,248 patents in 2004 alone and made US$1.2 billion from associated royalties. According to the Stallings, IBM have over 10,000 applications for new patents in the United States awaiting processing and many thousands more around the world.
  • Pot & Kettle (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 11, 2005 @12:49PM (#12201830)
    I am semi involved in one small part of IBM's massive patent system. They are getting software patents for any solution to any problem they find. It is totally rediculous. They are churning out patents on crap. For every program you write, if you were to abstract the flow out and submit a patent on it, that is what IBM is doing. I believe they are going to help lead to the downfall of the patent system as it currently exists, at least I hope so.
  • by WillerZ ( 814133 ) on Monday April 11, 2005 @01:48PM (#12202700) Homepage
    OK, let's dissect your post a bit.

    IBM can only force a company to determine if it is infringing one of their patents by bringing suit against them. To bring a lawsuit, they must list the patents they think are being infringed in the filing. If the company being sued ends up paying anything to IBM that implies that they _were_ infringing at least some of the patents in the lawsuit.

    IBM would be breaking the law if they failed to use a patent which they knew could be profitably used -- publicly traded companies are obliged to do the best they can for their shareholders.

    I'm sorry to burst your bubble but IBM generally does what it _has to_ under the rules in place today; and I think it took a fair amount of corporate and personal courage to come out and say "we don't like the way things are". However, even if they don't like the rules, they still have to play the game.

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