VLC & European Patents 421
CaptScarlet22 writes " VideoLAN is seriously threatened by software patents due to the
numerous patented techniques it implements and uses. Also threatened
are the many libraries and projects which
VLC is built upon, like
FFmpeg, and the other fellow Free And Open Source software
multimedia players, which include
MPlayer,
xine,
Freevo,
MythTV,
gstreamer."
Re:Weren't they aware of this during implementatio (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, considering the nature of software patents, I should think we're looking for a place that is more legally forward-thinking...
Greed vs. Societal Advancement (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me be the first to say... (Score:5, Insightful)
One modern video codec is as good as any other. They're just all different implementations of the same basic mathematics. They all produce similar quality from similar file sizes. Businesses do the same stupid thing every time: patent one particular method (which is not necessarily better than any other method) of encoding, distribute EITHER the decoder to recipients or the encoder to content producers, whichever is easier for your business, and thereby bully the other group into paying for the use of your amazing "technology."
Gah. It's all bullshit.
Re:Weren't they aware of this during implementatio (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the number and scope of multimedia patents, the only way to clean up any potentially infringing code would involve rm -rf...
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, I suppose that's one way to kill OSS (Score:5, Insightful)
While it's probably not what DTS is after, they really don't compete with MPlayer, perhaps other companies will try it.
I'm just surprised DTS would even bother. After all, if your decoding capabilities are built-in to the most commonly used players, wouldn't that give prospective clients more incentive to use DTS? *shrug*
Vip
Re:Since when did algorithms became patentable (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Weren't they aware of this during implementatio (Score:4, Insightful)
You can't "clean up" code. (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, unless your company is so big that you can use your huge patent portfolio against all equal-sized or smaller companies, you're hosed. This is a game that only multinationals can win - and that's why IBM and HP lobby for Software patenting in Europe despite their affiliation with Open Source. It's more important to them to be able to dominate the entire computer software industry than it is to work with us.
Bruce
it is time to make a difference and take action (Score:2, Insightful)
The European parliament will now be taking the last stand against software patents in a voting for which an absolute majority is needed. Such a majority is hard to come by in a parliament with a low attendance level.
But not all is lost yet as long as you decide it is time to make a difference and take action. This is our last opportunity to fend off software patents worldwide, there will be no second chance for the foreseeable future.
Signing petitions [eurolinux.org] will not suffice. Contact your local EU representatives and educate them why software patents are a bad idea in the first place [mit.edu] and why they must attend that parliament session to vote against them. Make it clear that they need to stop the machinations of the EU council [ffii.org] and reaffirm the power of the EU parliament, the only democratically elected EU institution. For in-depth information and starting points to get active visit the software patent page of the FFII (Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure) [ffii.org] and NoSoftwarePatents.com [nosoftwarepatents.com].
Fair Use? (Score:2, Insightful)
We need a Sugar Daddy (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:The solution (Score:1, Insightful)
Please don't do this.
What you describe is a world where such compression algorithms really become primarily the tool to steal copyrighted works; not unlike Napster and Kazaa.
Sure, there (as with Napster) there might be non-infringing uses - but if the primary use is theft, all the F/OSS formats and algorithms will be made illegal just as Kazaa was. If you'll be breaking laws anyway stealing music why are you squeemish about using the patent-encumbered algorithms anyway.
Please reserve the unpatented/open formats for non-infringing (creative-commons - licensed) movies and music.
Re:Weren't they aware of this during implementatio (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Well, I suppose that's one way to kill OSS (Score:2, Insightful)
No, because DTS sells decoding licenses on a per unit basis. If they stand by and let VLC use it for free, then the big boys like Sony and Pioneer will see no reason to pay for their license either.
It's not about competing with OSS. It's about protecting their revenue because they make money on the decoders... not the content.
Many of you still don't get it (Score:3, Insightful)
The real question is not if, but when the moment arrives, are we ready to act as pirates? Because that's the point "they" are leading us to.
Re:what about MS patents? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is incorrect. You're thinking of trademark law. In the United States (and presumably elsewhere), patents can be selectively enforced to the heart's delight of the patent holder.
Which is, IMO, one of the biggest failings of patent law. It allows the patent holder to sit tight until someone with a lot of money (or political differences) comes along and only then "pounce". Hardly the spirit and original intent of patents.
No threat (Score:3, Insightful)
This website plastering is just scaremongering, FUD of the worst order, to
try and make people run off frightened and contact their local politicians
about it.
Nobody threatened VLC, MPlayer or FFMPEG with shit. If anyone wants to use
the code commercially they will no doubt buy a license to do so, the advantage
here is that there is a simple way to get some working code, which allows more
people to get to a point where they need to license.
It's a distinct advantage to patent holders (no requirement to maintain their
own source code base etc., and an entire market of willing customers which
would otherwise not exist) and the patent holders know it.
Neko
I think the FAQ misses the point (Score:2, Insightful)
This is what I feel is the main problem with software patents, they patent the actual process, NOT the way the process is actually carried out by the code. eg. method by which text is highlighted in a document by encasing the text in quotation marks... This is a process, the way it's implemnted is the patentable bit, the actual code use.
Obviously you'll need programmers to compare code to make sure people aren't simply copying it, but surely this isnt a problem in closed source anyway?
It's like Ford making the first car, and then Toyota making a car... "hey, you're infringing my patented idea of motorised transport!" Where the hell would we be now if this were the case? Ford would be very rich....
Re:im confused (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, I would say that if indeed all these politicians are against software patents, they should add a rule to the directive that states "Software patents are not allowed". Instead, you get lawyer-speak.
So, does the directive allow software patents, or doesn't it? It is actually not so difficult to determine. The big companies that are very much in favour of software patents, want this directive. The directive has been designed by patent lawyers who have much to gain by allowing software patents. And the European Patent Office is very actively lobbying for this directive, while they are also very much in favour of software patents. It seems pretty clear to me what this directive is about...
Re:No threat (Score:1, Insightful)
If a person is walking around the streets (the software industry) carrying a gun (a patent) and is willing to use it (litigation) then I think all the bystanders (software developers) dont need to be specifically threatened to be worried for their safety (existance of their project).
Would you feel safe if some random crackpot was waving a firearm around the streets?
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would like to repeat this ten times to drill it into your head, but I will save space and just repeat it once. In the world we live in, being sued for patent infringement will destroy your business and your life. Ordinary small business do not have the resources necessary to invalidate any patents. The ONLY way to save them is to not grant them in the first place.
Now return to your scenario. Is it better to have a vague patent, or a non-vague one? Clearly the vague patent is better, because it is easier to start a lawsuit. Sure, you'll probably lose if they fight -- but who cares, only one in a hundred is stupid enough to fight.
I suppose you could argue that in a hypothetical world where the legal system was affordable, this would not be the case. Well, sorry. We don't live in a hypthetical world, and we write rules to fit with the world we live in.
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:5, Insightful)
You can trust that I sleep just fine at night, mainly because I see first hand that the vast majority of the Slashdot/geek/media communities' complaints about the USPTO are, at best, baseless.
Hmm?
We claim: "The USPTO grants ridiculous software patents"
You claim: "The USPTO grants ridiculous software patents"
From what you say above it seems the
Cheers
Stor
You all have the Power to change This (Score:1, Insightful)
solution #1 Take out microsoft -quit buying their fucking products.
Solution #2 Take out Riaa -quit buying their fucking products or downloading them.
Solution #3 If they can't sell what their patenting , they won't use patents anymore.
They want your dollar thats it,bottom line, and thats all they want, they don't give a flying fuck about you.
If we would all do this, in 6 months we would have nothing to discuss on slashdot.
Thank You
Gunillablue
ps:The real power is in your hands.
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:5, Insightful)
Can you explain to me how it could have happened that the USPTO has granted a patent on something which is mathematically impossible? I'm thinking of the compression algorithm which claims to losslessly compress any input to a smaller size, in a way that the process is reversible (US patent #5,533,051).
Seriously, if you can think of any explanation besides incompetence of the patent examiners how such things can happen, please offer it.
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:4, Insightful)
Props for giving us an inside look though
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:3, Insightful)
And that patent is obvious to practitioners in the field...
question for the pro (Score:3, Insightful)
It would be nice to hear a professional opinion: Were those patent decisions correct at the time they were made, and can one really defend their continuing existence now?
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:4, Insightful)
Rather than fill this post with links to a myriad RLE and other compression patents, discrete transform patents, Djikstra algorithm variants, memory management algorithms etc. etc. I'll just say this: Congratulations! - it's not every day one comes across someone who knows more about computer science than Donald Knuth. [mit.edu]
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:4, Insightful)
High-profile people do have a higher chance of being modded up because moderators notice their name.
But the related side-effect is that high-profile opensource people are usually more likely to write lucid, intelligent, and possibly even well-informed posts. Usually because if they bother to post to slashdot at all, it's on an area of interest. And it appears patents, especially software patents, are interesting to Bruce.
But in regard to the geek-patent-examiner-AC's comment - well, he did put a smiley at the end of the sentence. Ha-ha only serious. The only minor shot he was taking at Bruce's comment was that he thought it contained some FUD. And he (the AC) actually backed up that opinion with some actual evidence (rare on slashdot, I know).
Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you don't respect them. And conversely, just because you respect someone doesn't mean you must agree with them on everything.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that it is a cost of doing business is a failure of patent law to meet its constitutional mandate to further the progress of science and it is and will continute to hold back innovation in the US and other countries where patents on software are permitted.
Software doesn't need patents, copyright provides ample motivation to software developers. The only people I know that have sought software patents only even thought of doing it after they had developed their "invention", thus the patent did not serve as a motivating factor for them, meaning society suffered the cost of the patent monopoly with no benefit in return. In my experience this is always the case with software patents.
Re:You can't "clean up" code. (Score:4, Insightful)
> Did you know that IBM held a patent for highlighting an input field in a user interface to indicate to the user that the field is mandatory?
Could you explain why in the world that patent was granted? There is no check on something being obvious anymore? Or does the fact that something happens to involve a computer automatically make it new and non obvious?
Just to be utterly clear here, hilighting mandatory fields on a paper form has been used for longer then computers exist.
Could you explain how Microsoft managed to get a patent on using xor to make a cursor blink? (this is an obvious method for anyone who ever did a little bit of assembler coding at the very least)
Can you explain the famous Amazon one click patent and it not being dismissed inmediately because of being utterly obvious? (this seems to be the most valid one of the 3 mentioned in this post actually)
Can you point us at any software patents that actually comply with the requirement of providing enough information so that a practiser in the field the patent applies to can reimplement it based on the text of the patent?
Thanks for your corrections but it still makes no sense at all.
GSteamer's good but your post is not as good (Score:2, Insightful)
First of all I would like to thank you for bringing to my attention the fact that Fluendo are working hard to support proprietary plugins. Hopefully this will work out and will have a happier ending than other commercial forays into open source / commercial collabortion. Of course what will be interesting is what the eventual licence of these plugins will be (if I pay for a plugin on one distro and I migrated to a free solution do I have permission to copy my plugins across too?)
However I take issue with some of the points in your post:
It is no coincidence that projects like mplayer, vlc, and xine do not get shipped by most distributions...
Xine was shipped by SUSE (at least up to 9.2) and Mandrake/Mandriva (up to 10.2RC2) last time I checked. Red Hat are not the be all and end all.
GStreamer platform is pluggable to the point where the libraries can be put in or taken out without breaking the applications
Both SUSE and (old) Mandrake (watch out Mandriva) shipped Xine without potentially dubious plugins. A while ago I added Theora after the original install.
(If the BBC can do it [make content available in free formats], so can they
Are we thinking of the same BBC [bbc.co.uk]? The BBC I'm thinking of does not make much (Radio 1 [bbc.co.uk], Listen to 6Music [bbc.co.uk]) of its content available on free formats. Where are you getting this from? Last I saw the BBC had dropped its ogg trials [bbc.co.uk] never to return. This is surely a damning example of how Free media formats are doomed to failure. Nice to see Novell using those Free media formats [novell.com] too eh?
I concede that there is a slim chance such formats may become popular on devices like mobile phones but I think between patents and big media companies if they did get a toehold then they would eventually be squeezed out.
The basic problem though is that people (big or small) don't want to provide content in formats that most people can't already play (notice the shift away from RealPlayer towards Windows Media). Without DRM support and the promise that it won't be broken (whether those promises can be kept or not) there is no reason for big media to look at Free formats and almost no Free media format will have critical mass like MP3 did (which itself was not Free). Grassroots stuff is nice but most people aren't listening/watching it and don't really care to.