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Patents

TiVo Buys Six New Patents From IBM 128

Posted by CmdrTaco from the i-heard-ibm-patented-thumbs dept.
Thomas Hawk writes "TiVo reported in an 8-K filing today that on March 31, 2005 they purchased six new patents from IBM. The patents purchased reportedly have to do with audience research and measurement, integration of television signals with internet access, automatic rescheduling of recordings, content screening, enhanced program information search and electronic program guide interface enhancements. For those of you privacy advocates out there you will love Patent No. 5,872,588: Method and apparatus for monitoring audio-visual materials presented to a subscriber. " The link has very little additional information.
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TiVo Buys Six New Patents From IBM More

TiVo Buys Six New Patents From IBM

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  • Interestingly (Score:5, Interesting)

    by 2.7182 ( 819680 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:36PM (#12168687)
    One of those patents actually depends (in IP sense) on patents bought by IBM from RCA in the 70s.

    • Re:Interestingly (Score:1, Flamebait)

      by ZephyrXero ( 750822 )
      This is exactly the problem with our patent system! You should not be able to buy a patent!!! The whole idea of a patent is that an inventor has came up with something new and needs a time of leadway (not permanent) to get his product to market before other people and businesses try to compete with him. This is also why corporations should not be allowed to hold patents...it defeats the entire reason behind them existing in the first place! (And in a 100% capitalist society there would be no patents, so don

      • Re:Interestingly (Score:3, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        You're a communist shit.

      • Re:Interestingly (Score:2, Insightful)

        by tlpalmer ( 800391 )
        What if I invent something, patent it, but don't have the funds to develop it further? I could make my money by selling the patent to a firm that is able to put in extra resources, and hence be compensated for effort I put into inventing it. Surely that's the reason people are allowed to buy/sell patents.
        • Special exception: Individuals (and I personally don't count corporations as individuals) may sell patents to corporations.

          We still need big-time patent reform. There's no talking your way around the problem.
          • What then if myself and some particularly inventive friends invent a thingy together, and form a company that then gets a patent on the invention. If patent-selling is restricted to individuals, then we can't sell it to someone able to take it further. Don't you think that, whilst stopping large companies from messing with everyone, limiting patent selling to individuals would cause smaller businesses to lose out?
            • You're right, of course. That's why the "corporations shouldn't own patents" idea is so stupid--everyone assumes "corporation" means IBM instead of meaning guy who incorporates himself to protect himself from liability.
            • liscense it, but do not outright sell it.

              Arn't IBM's patents purly defensive? I would expect that means Tivo doesn't actually need them.
          • "and I personally don't count corporations as individuals"

            I agree, but it's too bad the US government doesn't... [thecorporation.com]
        • Don't sell your patent, licence it... You can sell these companies the right to produce your product without selling them the patent.
        • You could license it to other firms.

          If pattents were limited to how to do something rather than simply an idea that something could be done, then licensing would not be nearly as big of a problem. If someone didn't want to pay you, they could still figure out a better way and get a patent on that even if both are acheiving the same goal.

  • Confused (Score:2, Informative)

    by Travelsonic ( 870859 )

    The patents purchased reportedly have to do with audience research and measurement, integration of television signals with internet access, automatic rescheduling of recordings, content screening, enhanced program information search and electronic program guide interface enhancements. For those of you privacy advocates out there you will love Patent No. 5,872,588: Method and apparatus for monitoring audio-visual materials presented to a subscriber. "

    This all slipped by me like water, so now they control

    • I mean internet controlled video content methods, and how people recieve media via that, and standard television methods, and how the interface is made?

    • ...so now they control a method of how people reciecve and view content online/on TV?

      Now they have another six arrows to fend off competitors like DISH Network (against whom they've an ongoing lawsuit.)

      It's a little suprising that IBM sold them outright. Corps usually cross-license patents. Either TiVo didn't have much to offer that way, or they think they can use them to good (litigious) effect.

      • Re:The "Why" (Score:3, Insightful)

        by SpaceLifeForm ( 228190 )
        This may be more about defending attacks on Tivo than fending off competition.

        Indirectly, it then also becomes a defense against attacks on Linux.

        So, it may actually make sense that IBM would sell these patents outright. They have more utility being used by Tivo than directly by IBM.

  • Some more information... (Score:5, Informative)

    by TripMaster Monkey ( 862126 ) * on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:37PM (#12168709)

    The link has very little additional information

    No kidding. In the interest of promoting more discussion, here's the abstract from patent #5,872,588:


    Method and apparatus for monitoring audio-visual materials presented to a subscriber

    Abstract

    A method and apparatus for content coding of Audio-Visual materials is presented. The content coding can then be decoded by a home station where the content coding is collected and processed. The content codes are utilized by the subscribers home station to collect information on the subscribers selection of AVM streams and record information on which AVMs have been presented to the subscriber. An audio-video material distribution system is described for supplying AVM streams to home station via a local distribution network. The home stations decode the content coding from the AVM streams and collect the encoded content codes. The collected content codes are then sent to collection centers for processing. The encoded information may also utilized to provide management of an upstream channel between the home stations and the video distribution node.


    • I know a guy who used to work at Neilsons and this was one of him primary jobs. Working with broadcasters to get them to put codes in their programs to indicate show information/timing and where commerical breaks occur. Neilson wanted it for its automated ratings system, the broadcasters didn't want to put it in and were worried about assistig commerical skip technology. Shrugs.
      • This could be related to some research that Neilson and TIVO are up to. I've got DirecTV TIVO and not too long ago was asked if I would give my permission to allow them to collect viewing statistics from my account. We know TIVO already does this and it looks like they are trying to bring something together with Neilson to allow TIVOs to become ratings boxes too.

        While it opens up concerns about privacy, etc. Personally, I don't mind letting the ratings types know what I watch, considering I've had a f
    • were they bought? or licensed?

  • The best patents. (Score:5, Funny)

    by krbvroc1 ( 725200 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:38PM (#12168716)
    One of the patents appears to be "A method for diversion of eyeballs in conjunction with the suspension of sound during commericals".

  • Close ... but not quite (Score:4, Informative)

    by stinerman ( 812158 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:38PM (#12168722)
    The link has very little additional information.

    Well its the submitter's blog. I was about to call a Roland Piquepaille on this, but there aren't any ads on the site.

  • I don't need to give you any steenking subject! (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Here you go! [uspto.gov]

  • These are patented (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Telvin_3d ( 855514 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:40PM (#12168746)
    Every time I see any sort of list of the things IT companies have pattented, I have to shake my head in wonder. Is it just me, or is half this stuff common sense, not a breakthrough in tecnology. If they can give a pattent for 'enhanced program information search', I am surprised that Google hasn't simply gone through the dictionary and patented a search for every item that has an electrical signal. These things should be features, not patents.
    • Please pay me a licensing fee for the idea that I just patented: a method for revenue generation whereby the company solicits licensing fees for patents that were obtained by randomly generating words.
    • It's not just tech companies though. Ever made a sandwich, spreading both slices of bread with butter (or peanut butter) to keep it from getting soggy? Turns out that's patented [msn.com]:
      Smuckers actually has a patent on the peanut butter shield, to stop the jelly from soaking into the bread, unlike a sandwich with peanut butter on just one side, which gets soggy when the jelly gets through.
      • If they don't get a handle on these types of patents then at some point there is going to have to be a real house cleaning. Depending on how much worse it gets, any serious buisness will move outside of North America where the patent system is friendlier to inovation and competition.
        • No, no, you don't get it. The US is quickly muscling other nations to adopt its policies regarding intellectual property, so that the same general set of laws on copyrights and patents will apply across the globe. There will be no place to run to get away from the corporate masters.

          Why? Because American and European growth is dependent on IP almost as much as it is on oil. If a significant portion of the world could trade with a nation that didn't respect "our" patents, our economy would fall over a cliff

  • Prior art. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:41PM (#12168747)
    > For those of you privacy advocates out there you will love Patent No. 5,872,588: Method and apparatus for monitoring audio-visual materials presented to a subscriber.

    "The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live--did live, from habit that became instinct--in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."

    - Some dude, prior art, ca. 1948

    Even as a junior employee, George was always better at writing functional specifications than literature.

  • Six "New" patents (Score:4, Funny)

    by panaceaa ( 205396 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:41PM (#12168751) Homepage Journal
    How are the patents "new"?? Patent #5,872,588 was filed in February 16, 1999 ... that's over 6 years old!

    IBM must have hired a really good cleaning crew to make TiVo think it was shiny and new :).

  • Legal Trouble? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:41PM (#12168752)
    Woah for a second there I read:

    TiVo Buys Six Packs From IBM

    and was very scared for both the legality of an older company selling beer to a younger company and also I was worried how that might corrupt an innocent little company like TiVo.
  • Will any of these Patents help Tivo with competitors, and their long term survival?

    • Will any of these Patents help Tivo with competitors, and their long term survival?

      From a quick glance at a couple of these patents, I'd say at least some of them relate to the upcoming pop-up ads (while fast-forwarding) which TiVo seems bent on providing to their paying subscribers. That, and reporting which ads get watched (or better, rewound and re-watched), and which are skipped.

      After last year's Super Bowl Janet Jackson boob slip-up ... er, slip-out... TiVo was able to provide very good statistics

      • I love it when I get, or see a response that is very well educated and makes good sense,... well said Generic Guy.

        Although I am against pop ups... they are what is needed to help make Tivo profitable. I mean that is how TV networks get much of their main revenue.

        Lets hope when Tivo is Profitable, they will start expanding to better and newer hardware and new features, while keeping mainly with the Tivo way of life.

  • More info here (Score:5, Informative)

    by MarkGriz ( 520778 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:43PM (#12168776)
    There's more info on the 8K filing here [hoovers.com]

  • TiVo Recommends (Score:4, Interesting)

    by teiresias ( 101481 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:43PM (#12168782)
    I assume most of these patents were bought with for the TiVo Recommends functionality. I'm sure they can (and will) be used to gather information about the end user but that's not what I'm concerned with here.

    As an owner of two TiVo's, I've always disabled this feature. It's not that I don't want to know what TiVo thinks I might like, that could be interesting, it's that for the most part, this feature has always been pretty wasteful. It's recommended shows that relate to other shows I've only recorded once. Instead of recording the shows, a Tivo page with suggestions and say the teaser would be much more helpful.
    • I keep it enabled, but mostly as a free space indicator. The TiVo will will all availible space with suggestions, and they are always deleted first. If I have 30-60 suggestions, I know those would go away before the TiVo deletes my shows.

    • Yeah, particularly when you have one roommate who watches nothing but Discovery Wings or The Military Channel as it is called now. My TiVo suggestion thing became absolutely useless because it was inundated with garbage about Navy Seals and F14 Fighter Planes.
    • I'm sure they can (and will) be used to gather information about the end user but that's not what I'm concerned with here.
      I don't understand that statement. A patent doesn't enable you to do something, it just stops everybody else from doing it also.

      Since most of the patented "features" appear to be odious to customers, it would be ironic if buying these features lead TiVo to sell an inferior product.

    • for the most part, this feature has always been pretty wasteful

      Actually, the suggestions automatically recorded by TiVo don't waste anything, because they are automatically deleted if the space is needed for a scheduled recording.

      I figure the Tivo records enough stuff for me so that it deserves to get to watch what it wants the rest of the time. ;-)

      Oddly enough, my two TiVos have very different "tastes," presumably reflecting their different recording histories.
    • I've got a series 1 tivo and the service has always had a recommendation page that lists programs it thinks you will like. It's always done this. I dont understand why by default it automatically records these, but I also turned this off right away. Why bother using up space when you can just browse the list by hand.

  • As if we'd RTFA... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Reignking ( 832642 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:47PM (#12168835) Journal
    The link has very little additional information.

    Well, you've done it now -- now we're not going to RTFA!!

  • Maybe... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by CDarklock ( 869868 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:53PM (#12168906) Homepage Journal
    Maybe this will make my Tivo smarter about recording programs. Right now, if we tell TiVo not to record something on a season pass, we have to go into the TiVo and tell it to record later when the same show plays again. But some shows have no descriptions, so we can't tell which of the upcoming episodes is the one we want to record.

    However, TiVo might be able to distinguish between them using some kind of internal identifier. If it was smart, it would respond to "don't record now" by rescheduling the recording for the next time the same episode was on. I'd like to see it get smart.

  • This makes sense... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by LaughingLinuxMan ( 872028 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @03:58PM (#12168966) Homepage
    As everyone and their brother/sister jumps into the timeshifting business (even FLOSS), Tivo needs to stay viable. They can do that with marketing information. Correct me if I am wrong, but these patents look like they have to do with collecting data about viewing. Such market information is worth quite a bit to advertisers. I expect Tivo to use these patents to force cable providers who also do timeshifting either to take no marketing data from their services or to pay Tivo royalties for the privledge.

    -LLM
    • Contrast this announcement with the *other* recent announcement that they're going to be replacing commercials in saved programs. I thought that one didn't get enough attention, that they're going to be the only company who can keep advertising revenues going in spite of time-shifting. A big deal, though I don't like the pop-up idea if it actually comes to fruition.

      Anyway, some of these patents seem to hook up with these ideas. The other ones point to some more announcements and refinements in the future.
  • Who owns a TiVo? Does the user own it, or lease it from the company? Because if TiVo maintains ownership of the box, they can do damn near anything they please with it.

  • it's funny-- I read where it said "the link has (Score:3, Funny)

    by way2trivial ( 601132 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @04:02PM (#12169006) Homepage Journal
    little further information"
    and immediately checked to see if it had been submitted to /. by roland pipquille
  • Why that's very best kind of information! We can fill in all the gaps with our hopes, fears and dreams and then argue endlessly about them. Rock on Slashdot! Rock on.

  • seems like (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Sv-Manowar ( 772313 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @04:04PM (#12169029) Homepage Journal
    Seems like TiVo are working on keeping ahead of the cable providers who are chasing them down on their market.

    If they can keep working on new things to make TiVo more desirable to the consumer, purchases like this will pay off in the long run.
  • That's the problem with patents and copyrights, they should be held by the originator for a set time then expire, not be passed on or sold repeatedly.

    One of the biggest weaknesses of the West is this kowtowing to big corporations like Disney and IBM.

    If I could change one thing in America it would be the removal of a corporation's rights, as they are not people and should not be able to do so much as they do.

  • Here's what they're up to: (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 07, 2005 @04:10PM (#12169104)
    It's fairly obvious to a direct marketer like myself (ducks) that these patents are preparatory to turning TV into a direct-response medium (dodges).

    Specifically, they will be able to track viewership in real time, at the individual level (sidesteps), and link that viewship to Internet use (cringes), i.e. knowing how many of the 321,456 males age 18-35 who watched your commercial for the new Ronco Sex-o-Matic actually went online and ordered one.

    On the plus side, it shouldn't take too long for the system to fine tune itself to your tastes, and show you mostly commercials for stuff you actually want to buy (feigns unconciousness).

  • oh please (Score:4, Informative)

    by Lord_Dweomer ( 648696 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @04:12PM (#12169133) Homepage
    "For those of you privacy advocates out there you will love Patent No. 5,872,588: Method and apparatus for monitoring audio-visual materials presented to a subscriber."

    Oh please. Privacy advocates nothing. I am as big of a privacy nut as the rest of you, but I'm also in the advertising industry so I know that in order for tv to work the way it does today, this patent is important. You see, the main reason you have "free" television is because advertisers are willing to shell out MAJOR dollars for air time. Now, if you were spending that much money, wouldn't you want some way to know your ad ran when they said it would? And keep in mind that you typically don't buy ad space for a SPECIFIC time, but rather a "time-slot". This patent is clearly related to how networks track the running of ads so they can give assurance to advertisers that they were getting what they paid for.

    Now, if they had technology to monitor audio and video OUTSIDE THE TV (ie. watching what you the viewer do and listening to what you say), that would be a different thing, although I'm sure Neilson would find many people willing to be monitored like that in exchange for big bucks.

    Hey, I should patent that idea.

    • And I should patent the device I invent to block all outgoing signals. It will be "a method of using a computer firewall on a TV".
      • You own the tv, not the signals. Interfering with signals that YOU decided to accept into your home would violate some sort of agreement I'm certain (well, with cable providers at least).

        And why do you care so much that they know you are watching X at Y time? Can you please give some serious reasons as opposed to just "Because I said so"?

        • Hmmm...Let's see...They can make up any rules they want just because "they say so", but I can't? Very interesting.

          If this agreement states that you cannot block any of the signals they transmit without their authorization... Emphasis mine

          What did I say about messing with the signal that they transmit? And why for goodness sake are you taking this so seriously?? I know there's no privacy in anything I do. I don't care anymore. The majority doesn't want privacy. I'll assume that means I not allowed to have

    • Re:oh please (Score:4, Funny)

      by stinerman ( 812158 ) on Thursday April 07, 2005 @05:28PM (#12169879)
      I am as big of a privacy nut as the rest of you, but I'm also in the advertising industry

      DOES NOT COMPUTE

  • Could be a bad thing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ruprecht the Monkeyb ( 680597 ) * on Thursday April 07, 2005 @04:44PM (#12169487)
    So long as IBM held the patents, there was a good chance they'd stay out of the hands of Microsoft, Time Warner, Comcast, etc. I doubt Tivo has the cash to hold off a determined effort by any of those companies. Should those patents fall into the wrong hands, it could put a serious crimp not only on stand-alone PVRs, but even the PC boards that have equivalent functionality.

    • So long as IBM held the patents, there was a good chance they'd stay out of the hands of Microsoft, Time Warner, Comcast, etc. I doubt Tivo has the cash to hold off a determined effort by any of those companies. Should those patents fall into the wrong hands, it could put a serious crimp not only on stand-alone PVRs, but even the PC boards that have equivalent functionality.

      What makes you think IBM is the "right hands"?
      • IBM has zero interest in being a media company, in selling PVRS, etc. Likely the patents would have sat on a shelf gathering dust until someone had the temerity to sue IBM for something related, at which point they would have been brought out like a rolled-up newspaper. OTOH, a Comcast or Microsoft could decide that they could be a strategic weapon to force competing PVRs off the market, or to expand their cable service because they could offer something the others couldn't.
  • What do all these "method to" patents mean for anyone who wants to make a competing product? For example, if someone were to sell mythtv boxes?
    • They simply license out the technology for each unit sold. Tivo already owns a billion + 5 patents on DVRs as it is. This is just a couple more.
  • where RTFA is -1:Redundant
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Now the big question is...why not seven?

    m

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