New Technique for Tracking Web Site Visitors 590
bigtallmofo writes "According to Jupiter Research, 58% of web surfers deleted cookies from their system in 2004. This has sent a loud message to marketers in regard to consumer's preference as to tracking their online activities. The marketers have responded with PIE. Persistent Identification Element (PIE) is a technology that uses Macromedia's Flash MX to track you even without using cookies. Macromedia has created a page to instruct users on how to disable this."
Not actively deleting cookies (Score:1, Interesting)
Flash(id)blocker (Score:4, Interesting)
Camera / Microphone (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not actively deleting cookies (Score:4, Interesting)
As far as reinstalling operating systems. Do you really think people really reinstall that often?
58% misguided fools (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This gives me a great reason (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This gives me a great reason (Score:5, Interesting)
Vector drawing is one of those things that sounds like a useless add-on until you consider how much time and disk cash you devote to every two-bit logo you see every day. If logos were all vector graphics, they'd be far smaller, far better looking on whatever display type you happen to have (because YOU get to choose how the rendering is optimized for that device) and generally much more usable.
Woefully, this isn't why people use Flash. People use Flash because they want to ANIMATE, and animation is rarely a boon for the end-user.
Even worse, it's often used to hijack the look and feel of your browser, imposing some horrid DVD-like menu system that you have to re-learn to interact with (and have no hope if you're disabled).
Re:Here's another hint... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Just don't have flash installed or activated. (Score:3, Interesting)
I like Firefox, but this is one thing I miss. Does anyone know of a plug-in for Firefox that lets you easily toggle Flash on/off?
If you have to use IE for some reason, try Avant [http://www.avantbrowser.com] [avantbrowser.com]. It's a BIG improvement over the vanilla IE, and it uses the same rendering engine. So Avant works with sites that only work with IE. Not that I want to encourage that sort of thing (IE lock-in), but sometimes you don't have any other choice.
SVG's probably not gonna take off (Score:2, Interesting)
flame away
For your convenience (Score:2, Interesting)
I am particularly thrilled with Mookie's quote, `The user is not proficient enough in technology to know if the cookie is good or bad, or how it works.' Not some users aren't -- no user is. Shame on you, Slashdotters who delete cookies! You're practically stealing from Mookie, and putting yourself in danger besides! Imagine if your favourite site could no longer address you by name!
Stop tracking the easy way. (Score:1, Interesting)
rm ~/.macromedia;ln -s
Re:Here's another hint... (Score:2, Interesting)
So not trying bash Firefox or anything but it's not the be all, end all of browsers. It can be difficult for novices as well since they visit sites that we (more tech-oriented people) don't, such as all the silly humor and greeting card sites that just rehash ancient jokes with images and music. I had a hell of a time getting Firefox to play background wav files on my mother's computer, something that was important to her no matter how silly I thought it was. It'd have been nice if I could have found an answer to this on Mozilla.org/Getfirefox.com but I wasn't able to. I finally figured it out from some developer questions on a forum asking how to get background wav files to play in Firefox/Mozilla. (The solution was installing Quicktime alternative and setting the mime type for Wav files to be associated with it. For some strange reason Firefox wants to use Quicktime to handle wav files. This was highly unintuitive, especially when Firefox would claim a required plugin wasn't available for a page and then say it was Quicktime (which was installed). It took a lot of looking at the source of pages before I realized that the background wav files were linked to Firefox saying Quicktime was needed but not installed on some pages. Some Google searches later I found the forum posts and it all finally made sense.)
All that said, I want to see Firefox improve and continue to challenge IE and take away market share. In the long run we're all going to be better off with the competition. Hell, eventually IE might even end up safe to run for regular users. (OK, probably not but it would be nice. :) )
Wrong conclusion drawn from the results (Score:5, Interesting)
Bad assumption. This could just mean that people value their privacy. Most people don't even know what cookies are, but they do know that when they clear history, cookies, and everything else, then the next person who uses their computer to hit MSN or Yahoo or a variety of other sites won't accidentally be logged in using their cached credentials.
Also, you're forgetting about all the false positives that many corporate firewalls will generate.
This survey is hopelessly flawed. If you want to collect real data, you have to track how many times users actually go into their browser settings and manually clear the cookies, and you have to also ask them why they are doing it.
Will anti-spyware (Ad-Aware? Spybot?) catch this? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Here's another hint... (Score:2, Interesting)
You're not *there*. The developer isn't putting ads on his site, the developer is putting ads on your computer screen. More specifically, you tell your computer to send a request to a server for information. The server sends back information (often an html page) with references to other information: the advertisements and other images on the page. If you don't need or want to see the advertisements, why should you waste your own bandwidth sending more requests to the server and downloading ads?
As far as cookies go, at the "bodega on the corner" the "guy who works there" writes down *in his own records* when you came and what you bought. He doesn't give you a piece of paper and ask you to file it in your records and then bring it back to him next time you visit.
Re:This gives me a great reason (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a double-edged sword, though, and for every site that uses Flash in a decent manner like this, there's a Flash ad with sound effects, and two more with graphics that slide, blink, spin, change colors, and suck up a lot of CPU for no good reason. On top of that, now we have Flash-based click tracking. This seems to happen with a lot of promising technologies; it has an obvious benefit, but the wrong people started using it for the wrong things. Fortunately, at least there's Flash click-to-play.
Re:AdAware / AntiSpy (was Re:Not actively deleting (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:AdAware / AntiSpy (was Re:Not actively deleting (Score:3, Interesting)
all WEB internet traffic is filtered through privoxy.. therefore you can try to show any of us here the same ad over and over all you want. they do not get through and they do not get displayed.
we cut internet bandwidth use by almost 45% by adding a privoxy proxy in front of the corperate proxy.
if we block all your cookies and ad's it's extremely effective.
BTW, you cant track any of us in this company by IP. because it looks like there is one IP address that is surfing a whole crapload of places.
another nice side effect of ad filtering proxies.
I just wish that ISP's would offer a free privoxy proxy for it's users... an opt in for the customer to opt out of all the annoying web content and tracking.
So I can account for several thousand websurfers out there that you can not track and your ad's never get seen by. and I'm betting there are many many more than just the ones that work here.
Re:AdAware / AntiSpy (was Re:Not actively deleting (Score:2, Interesting)
This is just not true. The key issue here that most people are ignoring is email. If the email content is HTML then you can tie someones email to cookies. It requires no hoops or anthing like that. This by the way is one reason that the Thunderbird email client does not allow remote loading of content by default to prevent this privacy hole.
My solution is simple (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously what good at all is Flash ? All it's used for is yet more marketroid spam. Having a flash enabled browser is like inviting an obnoxious teenager to come in your house and yell at you.
So what do I miss not having it ? About 3 mildly entertaining "cartoon" like things (I've seen these on a co workers box and whilst they're quite amusing I don't see my life as being any poorer by not seeing them more often) It utterly amazes me that people will willingly run this crap.
Sorry but I'm old fashioned. The only thing I want from a website is some well crafted HTML/CSS, with some supporting plain "non animated" images, and at the most, some simple client side javascript for stuff like menus (and don't worry I'll be looking at your script first. If I can't see it, it ain't running) You can do what you want on your server but not in my broser.
History has told me that allowing anything else is a disaster waiting to happen (Active-X anyone ?)
But ultimately my message to advertisers etc. is simple. You're not using my resources to advertise at me, to track me, in fact to do anything. You're not welcome to phone me, send me junk mail, knock on my door or stop me in the street. Bother me with your crap and you'll get a simple reply "Fuck off and die".
There that told 'em
Re:AdAware / AntiSpy (was Re:Not actively deleting (Score:1, Interesting)
Uh, this is only true if you are complete and utter idiots. Are you a complete and utter idiot? All you have to do is parse the clickthrough from the URL information and bingo, you can grab unique strings. If you are currently using a cookie to do that, you are stupid. There is much less overhead involved in just putting the link in the URL.
You, sir, are simply spreading bullshit to try to get people to not delete your stupid asinine spyware clickthrough crap. I both block advertising cookies when I can, and use adblock to block ads so I don't have to see them at all. Consequently, I can't click through, because I don't even see the ad. This all works out perfectly for me. Meanwhile you can blow your cookies out your ass.
Opera blocker (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:AdAware / AntiSpy (was Re:Not actively deleting (Score:4, Interesting)
> all WEB internet traffic is filtered through privoxy.. therefore you can try to show any of us here the same ad over and over all you want. they do not get through and they do not get displayed.
Where, in my parent post, did I say anything about blocking the actual ad requests? I have no problem with this, and if you do it, more power to you. I was talking STRICLY about cleaning cookies as a means of fighting advertisers.
> BTW, you cant track any of us in this company by IP. because it looks like there is one IP address that is surfing a whole crapload of places.
Again, my p[arent post goes to great lengths to point out that I know that, and when we cant use cookies, we use IP addresses, which are inherently less accurate for the very reason you repeat for me.
Its funny, the combative tone some of these replies take. I have no problem with anyone blocking ad servers via proxies
users are often instructed... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:AdAware / AntiSpy (was Re:Not actively deleting (Score:2, Interesting)
One small problem tho. You're dead wrong if you're running an ad network. There are some very good business reasons for using cookies to tie the click to the impression, but I'd rather not enlighten you since you're not terribly interested in anything other than:
a) insulting me
b) noting that you block all ad requests, making your input to this discussion even LESS relevant (since the original discussion was about deleting cookies, not blocking ad requests.)
Man, I have no problem with anyone blocking ad requests. I'm sure you'd all love it if I got mad or thought that blocking ad requests was wrong, but hey, if you can do it, more power to you. I dont think your indebted to view advertising, although you clearly wish I did. My only point was that IF you view internet advertising, its in the end users' interest to use cookies
However, if you wanna take a stab at it, try and figure out why using cookies is better than parsing URLs. I'll give you some credibility if you can; otherwise, I'll assume you're a techy end user who is a little out of his industry element.
Re:AdAware / AntiSpy (was Re:Not actively deleting (Score:1, Interesting)
- only the first time I visit a site, after the first load of the page I'll have all the ad-images, iframes containing ads, flash ads, url's of ad-servers I find referenced on the page, urls for javascripts used for tracking or ad related javascripts etc etc blocked via Firefox's very nice adblock extension. You only get info via those sources from me once.
"- we can't implement frequency capping very well. this means you have a much higher chance of seeing the same damn ad, again and again and again. you like?"
- Again, adblock nicely prevents this. No damn ads... I've got hundreds of adservers and thousands of specific images/dirs on sites with adimages etc etc blocked via adblock, I hardly ever see a new ad when visiting a new site (since most get ads from the same few places) and the web has become a much nicer place.
"One thing for sure is that internet advertising isn't going away, and sites that you like (this one included) stand a much better chance of staying subscription-free if the advertiser pays
- AdBlock already gives me less (next to none) ads - I'm happy... Sites may make less money by me not loading their ads, but honestly I don't give a damn, I didn't ask for the ads, I don't want the ads, it's not my problem if they can't find a less annoying source of income. If that means some sites close down, well tough, I think I'll survive.
Ohh, an on the subject of cookies, I do allow some of them - but only if related to the same site as I'm browsing, and only from sites I trust, and in any case they all get deleted when I close my browser.
Choice is a four letter word. (Score:1, Interesting)
Now whether you like it or not I WILL stop you from spewing your damn graffiti onto my hard drive. If you want to keep precious IP tracking data on your drive then that's up to you. I won't let door to door salesmen make chalk marks on the side of my house for later reference either. Why do you find this so hard to understand?"
Choice is all fine and good. Howver were the "choice" crowd fails is in realizing that decisions have consequences, and they don't want to bear them. Is it any wonder the majority don't take the "choice" crowd and their stance seriously?
Re:AdAware / AntiSpy (was Re:Not actively deleting (Score:1, Interesting)
Then get on with it.
I want advertising officially classified as toxic waste and strictly regulated by the government.
Already there are laws against letting your dog shit in the street, against dumping rubbish in parkland, and against playing loud music in the middle of the night. I want the same protection against the torrent of advertising that washes over us like the outpouring of a broken sewer.