FBI Demands Logs From Radical Website

sunbird writes "The details are as yet unclear due to a gag order, but apparently the FBI is once again demanding IP logs from dissident webservers. The sysadmin for flag.blackened.net, best known for hosting infoshop.org and the Anarchist FAQ has responded to an FBI request for server logs. Although he cannot reveal the details of the request due to the gag order, the sysadmin has issued an informal press release discussing his reasons for turning over the information. Slashdot articles on similar topics: (1) (2) (3)"

Press Release

[Anonymous Coward]

FBI investigating incidents on subdomains hosted by flag.blackened.net.

OK folks, here's the real deal as far as I can share it legally at the moment. Consider it as a press release if you wish and feel free to distribute it for whatever reason you deem necessary.

I'm under court order not to speak about specifics and have my attorney trying to find out what the maximum penalty for disclosure really is. I hate to have to keep my mouth shut in areas where the Gestapo is involved, but I also have to weigh things against the overall security of flag and it's subdomains and also the wellbeing of my family.

I have been ordered to submit IP info on two separate incidents having to do with subdomains hosted on flag. Both of these are in regard to claimed or threatened responsibility for acts of propaganda by the deed. Both incidents involve topics which are completely out of line for consideration here at flag and really I can only view them in two ways. Either people are simply ignorant about the murderous history of the FBI, or, as is my belief in one case, they are trying to make flag vulnerable to government intrusion.

At this point let me say, in all honesty and conviction, that if I end up dead by strange means - suicide, overdose, drunk driving accident (I never, ever, ever drink and drive), "accidental" gunshot to the back of the head while sleeping ala Fred Hampton, car jacking, or anything else reasonably suspicious, contact the FBI in Chico, California for more details.

I have called numerous friends nationwide, anarchists and otherwise whose opinions I respect and who I know will be honest and forthwith in their opinions to ask them how I should proceed. The unanimous consensus is that I comply with the wishes of the FBI and provide the IP addresses responsible. The only point of discussion, really, has been whether or not I should reveal the specific information in violation of two court orders.

Really, I am not left with much of a choice. Here are my two choices as I see them:

1. Do not comply with the wishes of the FBI. This will most likely lead to the seizure of flag and a compromise of all the sites and information online. It will probably also lead to me being imprisoned, I would guess. I personally do not fear this, but I am the sole support for my wife and infant daughter. There can be no doubt we would probably lose our home as a result.

2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.

Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.

I was first contacted by the Oakland FBI. Many of you know their history. We are talking COINTELPRO for real - not a perceived or mythical fear. They are proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question. Read the history of their disinformation campaign against the panthers if you don't believe me. The panther comic book which they completed and distributed, the fake letters between Huey and Eldridge, the fires of hatred and murder they faked and inflamed between the panthers and the US or "united slaves" which led to the murder of Bunchy Carter and John Higgins in L.A., the list goes on and on.

But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision. I post this mainly to inform you all and give you opportunity to make your own decisions as to whether I've handl

Re:But of course!

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean Orwell of course.....

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[Rei]

While it's more than a touch paranoid to apply it to himself, COINTELPRO [wikipedia.org] , which he mentioned, was quite real [cointel.org], and did some pretty darn nasty things. It's the very reason why the "wall" between the FBI and CIA, and a lot of restrictions on the agencies, were set up in the first place.

Re:Mmmm.. Dynamic

[Nos.]

Hopefully your ISP isn't keeping logs of the IPs your using... oh wait, they probably are... even here in Canada.

They do

[Sycraft-fu]

Whenever the investigation is closed they end, or when the trial is concluded if the investiagation results in trial. Thing is people on /. as well as elsewhere have FAR too short attetion spans to keep up on that. Criminal investigations are often a very slow process. Legal processes are slow. I'm involved in a lawsuit right now, and papers were filed like 6 months ago. Nothing to speak of has happened since then, and it could be a year more before something does.

So if you want to know about these cases, you need to keep up on it. Get the details about it (there will be public infromation form the court, even if the details are sealed) and then check back on status. Eventually the matter will either be dropped or a trial will happen. After that, check the public records.

Re:Automatic log deletion on FBI caller-id

[As Seen On TV]

Yes, that would definitely be material obstruction of justice. You're trying to find some way to actually obstruct justice that's technically not obstruction. Not gonna work.

Justice is blind, not stupid.

Re:One man's +5 funny...

[Rightcoast]

Please, get a grip on reality.

Google "COINTELPRO" for a little dose of reality.
If you don't want to.... It can be summed up by saying the United Staes Government was proven to have used eviction, job loss, break ins, vandalism, grand jury subpoenas, false arrests, frame- ups, and physical violence.

The above and more (according to thier own documents leaked to the press, and later further dug up under freedom of information) were threatened, instigated or directly employed, in an effort to frighten activists and disrupt their movements. Government agents either concealed their involvement or fabricated a legal pretext. In the case of the Black and Native American movements, these assaults, including outright political assassinations, were so extensive and vicious that they amounted to terrorism on the part of the government.

Congress admitted as much and shut down the COINTELPRO (Counter-Intelligence Program)after the leaked documents went public.

I'm sure it's cozy in that utopia though.....

Coral Cache

[AyeRoxor!]

Coral Cache's copy

Click Here [nyud.net]

is working fairly well (better than original link) as of the time of this post. It's going up and down because it's having to start caching when the original link is already fairly crippled.

Just add .nyud.net:8090 to a URL

BEFORE YOU POST IT TO SLASHDOT!!!

and it will be loaded into the cache.

The earlier you do this, the earlier it will start/finish caching, and the faster it will be for all of us.

Re:Is this really news?

[kk49]

Your freedoms cannot be granted, they can only be suppressed. Have you read the Declaration of Independance? The founding fathers understood.

... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. ...

Re:/dev/null

[Mr. Slippery]

You're not free to tell somebody else's secrets. You're not free to repeat somebody else's words without permission (with a few exceptions). You're not free to lie, in may cases; lying to deprive somebody of money or value is fraud, and lying to cause harm is slander.

Copyright, slander, libel, and fraud are civil matters. They are very different from state censorship.

Re:/dev/null

[georgewilliamherbert]

The problem with not keeping logs and telling the FBI you don't have any as a result: They'll just physically take your servers.

This is unreasonable paranoia.

If you don't keep the information they ask for, you and your attorney should explain to them that you don't and show them the configs so that they can reasonably conclude that you don't.

FBI agents will get in internal trouble if they go around siezing computers trying to find data that they have been reliably informed does not exist. Getting a warrant to sieze the computers requires convincing a judge that the information exists and that it's there on that computer. If you and your attorney already provided the FBI with appropriate documentation that you don't keep logs, and the FBI shows that to the judge, the judge is unlikely to sign the warrant. If they don't show it to the judge then they've perjured themselves preparing the warrant, and most judges have a short fuse about that sort of police abuse.

They would have to convice a judge that you and your attorney lied to them about the logs being there, and that's going to require a lot of evidence and effort.

Re:/dev/null

[damiangerous]

Copyright and fraud are most certainly criminal matters. Though it is less common, criminal libel/slander laws do exist in some states (such as Colorado), though the Supreme Court ruled "seditious libel" laws unconstitutional in 1964's New York Times v. Sullivan.

Re:Press Release

[vinn01]

I was taught that proper hard drive disposal is as follows:

The employee will:
- run the company approved wipe program
- remove the hard drive and open its case
- remove the disk platter
- break the platter with the hammer by the disposal bin

The company disposal crew will:
-handle the contents of the secure disposal bin
-send the platter through the grinder suitable for that purpose (a circuit board shredder)
-incinerate all output of the grinder.

... and that is how it's done at a place that takes security seriously.

Re:The Soviet Union collapsed

[voisine]

Holy Crap! You're comparing our government to Stalin's Soviet Union?!? You are aware that Stalin is the greatest mass murdurer in the history of the world aren't you? Hitler? He's only number 3, right behind Mao. I against gag orders and id checks at airports and the other stuff you mentioned of course, but let's be realistic here, we've got a long way to go before we're anything *remotely* like North Korea. At this point the people affected by these questionable practices are relatively few, and they are relatively well publicised. We can discuss them and vote for candidates who oppose them. I don't expect to get drug out into the street and shot any time soon because I voted Libertarian.

Re:/dev/null

[Anonymous Coward]

If you follow the cases you've blathered about, you'd know that *none* of the people we know about in Gitmo were captured on the battlefield. That would guarantee them 'Prisoner of War' status. The pair that are being accused of fighting against US forces were actually recovered from *prisons* where they had been since before the US invaded, and the government has yet to show their evidence to the defense in the case of the 'dirty bomb plot' guy.

Actually, as of the last time I saw numbers in a mainstream news source, there were over 100 people still in Guantanamo who *nobody* but the government knows who they are or why they are being held.

Heck, the court-appointed reviewers just released 38 a few days ago because, despite the fact that the government had held them as 'unlawful combatants' for 3+ years, the government didn't have enough evidence to *charge* them with anything.

In all likelyhood *more* would have been released if they had been allowed to have lawyers present, and see the evidence being used against them.

Just how long is it OK to imprison someone without trial? In normal criminal proceedings, you're talking about a week max. Yet, in the Guantanimo cases, we see hundreds held for years, some of whom claim they have been tortured. Very few of whom have been allowed the 'privilage' of a trial, or contact with a lawyer.

What does it say that under the PATRIOT Act, you can be charged with a crime, and be explicitly disallowed the right to tell *anybody* (including a lawyer) about it. Heck, under a strict reading, you'd become a felon the moment you acknowledged to the *judge* that you've been accused of something.

Re:/dev/null

[georgewilliamherbert]

> They would have to convice a judge that you and your attorney lied to them about the logs being there

They do not. They merely have to execute a search, in order to examine all relevant system logs such as those that are common on most systems that may provide the specific information looked for. Such as the HTTP access log or just the syslog. And for that, they will take the servers.

This entire article is regarding the situation when the FBI initiate contact not by getting a warrant and taking the computer, but by sending the sysadmin a subpoena for the data.

They generally do that to systems whose owners were not involved in whatever activity is alledgedly criminal. ISPs, bulletin board operators, blog sites, etc.

Once they do that and you properly notify them that the logs don't exist, then they have to have proper probable cause to pursue it.

Further:

They merely have to execute a search

Police don't just execute a search. Stop getting your law from bad 70s TV shows.

If the object they believe is evidence of criminal activity isn't on your person or sitting out in a public place, they have to get a warrant to do a search. Judges are not happy about giving warrants to sieze property as evidence when it's some third party's property. It has been known to happen, but the usual approach is for a subpoena for the data or logs be presented to the actual owner.

And if they're wrong, fingers are waggled in their face. If the aggrieved server owner pursues a claim, they fling a few grand of taxpayer money at them to settle. You really believe there are actual consequences?

Yes, police have been known to be suspended, fired, or sometimes arrested and prosecuted for doing things like lying to judges or faking evidence or warrant affadavits and that sort of stuff.

From flag.blackened.net message boards

[Anonymous Coward]

Qoute from Pomegranate on message boards:

i keep http logs around for a few days to track worms etc. which are pretty frequent. i delete them much more quickly than is normally recommended for basic unix security.

none of the information i provided is from an http log. when you post to phpbb, mediawiki, geeklog etc. etc., your ip is recorded with your post. it's not a log, it's built into the software. admins can see it.

if you post here anonymously, i can still see the IP you used every time i read the message. it's permanent and it's not something i can change without changing to different software.

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[Anonymous Coward]

If you visited the msg board you would notice that the logging provided was not http logs but phpbb logs (every post has the ip of the poster embedded in it) and this is what was provided.

DETAILS

[Anonymous Coward]

See the "No gag order here!" comment to this story for more details:
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=144320&cid =12097580 [slashdot.org]

Re:/dev/null

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Wrong.

It is in many cases. Read 17 USC.

Re:Choice bits from the "press release"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm the webmaster for Infoshop News and I've worked with Dave for many years. Most of the comments here are just stupid attacks on a wonderful sysadmin who has kept this server running for nine years. It's thanks to Dave's work that we don't have to worry about hack attacks and other annoyances. The charges here that Dave is seeking publicity are downright bizarre as Dave is one of those guys who is happy to quietly work in the background. Dave is not a publicity-seeker, nor does he need to generate publicity.

Dave does not keep logs. Dave deletes logs on a regular basis. Dave did not cave in--both of us have contacted the EFF, lawyers, and have talked to friends. I think that people will understand Dave's choice of words once the full details about this situation are known.

Chuck Munson
Infoshop News