HP Contract Workers Sue For Recognition 603
manganese4 writes "The Idaho Statesman is carrying the story of 33 local Boise HP contract workers suing HP. They claim that they were expected to perform at the same level of expectations as HP workers and thus should be given the rights and privileges of HP workers. HP claims the suit is without merit." From the article: "The suit seeks to represent 3,000 workers in Boise and elsewhere in the company and could involve as much as $300 million, according to the complaint."
Contract (Score:2, Interesting)
This is nothing new. It seems that at some point or another, all contractors suddenly feel that they are no longer contractors but rather employees. With entitlement no less.
The case is without merit but, not without precedence.
Contract workers (Score:5, Interesting)
Read the contract? (Score:4, Interesting)
contracting at Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
Later Apple did hire me as an employee. At that point since I believed that I was an employee, pursuant to the previously signed statement I wrote a notice and tried to deliver it to Apple's legal department. They seemed completely flummoxed as to why I was notifying them that I was an employee.
Re:Contract (Score:3, Interesting)
They don't like employers pretending people are "contractors" to avoid tax.
The funny thing is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking as a contractor (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm in the UK and I've been a contractor at a big IT company for over 3 years now. Still no sign of getting my contract converted to a permanent one to the company I work in. Not as many days holidays as badged employees. No pension plan. Lately I have been told that I have reached the top wage I can get in my current position and the temp agency policy is no bonuses. ("But you're doing a great job! Fantastic!").
When I signed the contract it seemed that you stayed as a temp for 1 to 2 years before getting a contract with the actual company.
So yeah I totally understand the frustration of those guys.
And the whole contractor thing is only getting more and more common.
Not Contract Workers (Score:4, Interesting)
The contractor vs. employee argument only comes into play when you're talking about true-blue contractors who work for a flat rate under a 1099, not W2 employees.
This was the situation in the famous Microsoft contractor vs. employee case. Contrary to common belief, the contractors were not the instigators in that case. It was the IRS who audited Microsoft and determined that they had incorrectly classified people as independant contractors as opposed to employees, and was therefore liable for back employment taxes (which, by the way, are paid if you're a W2 employee of a contracting company). The contractors then picked it up from there and demanded that, since the IRS classified them as employees, they were due the benefits give to full-time employees.
In my humble, and non-lawyerish opinion, this case is entirely without merit. They were employees of the contracting company, and were given a benefit package that they agreed upon by becoming employees.
Re:About freaking time! (Score:5, Interesting)
HP simply abused the situation. Looks like in Boise they are continuing to abuse a similar situation. This is more the contracting agencies and HP collaborating to screw people over en masse for profit, using dubious contracting methods. I've worked in the situation, and it is certainly NOT as cut and dried as this article makes it out to be.
Not individual contractors (Score:3, Interesting)
If the news story is accurate, these workers are not the same as if you or I worked as an independent contractor. According to the story, these workers were employees of staffing companies. The staffing companies were the contractors. They are no more entitled to be HP employees than the guy who drives around the lawnmower for a landscaping company deserves to be the direct employee of the landscaper's customer.
There are laws intended to protect individual workers from being treated like contractors instead of employees. A company can't simply hire people on a 1099 basis instead of a W-2 and duck all sorts of taxes and liabilities. The law provides for a set of tests to distinguish a true independent contractor from these situations. But the plaintiffs in this suit appear to be getting a W-2 from their employers, the staffing companies.
Re:I never understood.. (Score:2, Interesting)
very few of us would be better off without them.
*now we're supposed to let her renegotiate the contract BACKDATED TO THE START because she's changed her mind?* you don't have to, but then again the laws might state so that you're not allowed to screw them around on technicalities(to save on medical insurances or whatever).
It's a well know fact in some circles.... (Score:3, Interesting)
So HP deserves everything they get from this lawsuit. The previous posts about these guys
being asses and wrecking it for all other contractors, well, they don't know the real story. HP is as guilty as
Microsoft in this case.
Somethings to ponder (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:contracting at Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
What "most reasonable people would have seen" has very little bearing on the legal interpretation of documents one has signed.
If I had failed to satisfy my obligation, Apple would potentially have had grounds to sue me. I don't believe that they would have done so, but I also believe that honoring my obligation was the correct thing to do.
Doesn't make much sense to me (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:More reasons for Outsourcing (Score:5, Interesting)
I've had two positions (two different employers) where I worked on-site with government agencies. I worked side by side with regular government employees and other sub-contractors in both cases. Does that entitle me to full government benefits? I'd love to have some of the health and training benefits offered by government agencies.
In my opinion, contract employees should only receive the benefits offered to them by their employer, not the company or agency they may actually work at. If you don't like the benefits you have, then switch jobs. Companies/agencies hire contract workers for various reasons:
handle extra work
partnering with minority businesses
internal hiring practices may be too strict - hire/fire easier with contractor
cheaper labor rates due to competition between contractors - let's face it, some companies/agencies are "bloated" (i.e. unions, legacy business units from mergers, or whatever other reasons people's benefits/pay increase beyond similar rates by other companies)
Re:Contract (Score:2, Interesting)
However, the dress code, my hours, my responsiblities, even my time off requests are through the company I'm working AT.
My only contact with my company is the paycheck they send me, and the ocassional 'how are you' phone call.
I feel more like an employee of the company I'm working at than the one I'm working for. But I haven't been here long enough to know if this is a temp job or a perma-temp job. If I had been I might feel as these people, because I know I'm much more underpaid then a FTer is. (I presume because my employer charges a full amount for me and takes his cut).
However I decided to move on to a real FT job, not knowing if one would ever open up here. I'd love a FT position, but I just don't know when one would be available.
RE: getting around the IRS rules.... (Score:3, Interesting)
A big offender? Most courier/delivery services. They often use only "contractors" to run all their deliveries - even though at first glance, this might seem impossible. (If the people are driving cars you own, and taking deliveries "on call" for you, then that would seem to immediately make them your "employees" rather than "contractors".)
To comply with the IRS rules of "contractors" though, they do such things as rent the cars out to the drivers (with compensation built into their pay to cover the rental costs), and instead of telling a specific driver to do a given delivery run, they simply get on the radio and "offer" the jobs to the drivers.
Re:They're right, this has no merit... (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyway, I left because I didn't like it. They were real pissed when I left too. They tried to guilt me into staying by saying "But you signed a contract saying you will work here!". Of course the first paragraph of the contract said that I could leave anytime and they could fire me anytime. These idiots always want to have it both ways. Fuck em - I can find work elsewhere.
Re:Time to remove Exempt Status for Tech Workers (Score:3, Interesting)
Yay for me.
If this case goes through BellSouth is screwed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:More reasons for Outsourcing (Score:5, Interesting)
I was a contractor for ten years, and I've been a full-time employee for the last 12. As a contractor, I understood that I got an hour's pay for an hour's work. Period. I arranged my own vacation, insurance, and everything else that employees get as benefits. It was my job to ensure that my billing rate was high enough that I earned a good living after paying all those expenses, and I did. I earned a VERY good living, usually a lot better than my employee counterparts.
I quit contracting because I got tired of doing the lowest-level scut work that nobody else wanted, and now I earn a good living as an employee, but I have no illusions about loyalty or job security.
If I was abused by anybody, it was by the contract houses, who skimmed (or tried to, at least) an excessive amount of my raw billing rate as pure profit for them. Needless to say, when I found a contract house that treated me like I might actually know how the business works, I stuck with them.
Re:I never understood.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you know if a difference exist between "contractor" and "independent contractor"? From what I've read, the people suing HP worked for a company that was contractor to HP so I am not sure "independent contractor" necessarily fits in this case.
This should definitely be changed (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:They're right, this has no merit... (Score:2, Interesting)
There are now laws setup so that after one year of working at the same company you must refrain from working there through any agency for three months. This covers everything from IT through every other contracting field.
The result is that instead of being a permatemp you are in fact a temp that has a 1 year life max and you are now interchangable with the contractor that comes to take your place.
Re:More reasons for Outsourcing (Score:3, Interesting)
There are a lot of these lawsuits going around. Someone works salaried for 10 years, without complaining, with both the employee and the employer content with the situation and of the assumption that it is appropriate under the law. Then there is an unrelated dispute, and some lawyer shows up to demand tens of thousands in back overtime since the employee shouldn't have been exempt. It's a misapplication of the law, and it hurts everyone. Unless there is a record that someone didn't think they should be exempt, they shouldn't be able to sue for back wages.
Sure, the law defines what a contractor is, and companies should not be allowed to violate that. However, when someone willingly enters into a contract for specific compensation, they shouldn't be able to change the terms of the contract midway through and demand retroactive pay. It seems that our whole society is turning into vindictive, money-grubbing pricks who screw each other for a buck. Companies hate employees. Employees hate their companies. Customers hate the companies they buy from. Vendors hate their customers. All because some people have no integrity, and would rather make a little money they didn't earn than to be forthright, honest, and civil.
Then again, I might just be bitter.
Re:More reasons for Outsourcing (Score:2, Interesting)
I think you may be ignoring a large number of the 'contractors' out there who are not the type of employee you seem to think they are.
I myself am a 'contract/temp' employee, and getting paid abysmally low compared to my peers(When you include benefits, company product discounts, and retirement funding; without counting all of that it's only a couple dollars/hour difference.)
I am fullfilling a specific role, but I am not getting the kind of benefits I 'should' be getting.
That said, I'm in an area with a completely horrid IT job market, and this is my first post-college job, so I'm glad to HAVE a job, and the people I work with are pretty cool, so I'll live with it to build my resume.
20-year contractor speaks, so LISTEN, DAMMIT! (Score:3, Interesting)
"Miller said she was employed by HP in Boise from 1989 to 1995, when she took a severance package and left the company. She returned later in 1995 as a contract worker and worked at HP until March 9. Part of the time she was a contract employee through Veritest and Manpower Professional. Her jobs included testing software for HP printers.""
Something about this sounds wierd. Every employer I know of has had a strict time limit on length of contract: ChipZilla's is one year, with a minumum of 6 months off the payroll before you can be recontracted. A series of contracts doesn't equal a permanent employment.
Re:20-year contractor speaks, so LISTEN, DAMMIT! (Score:2, Interesting)
I understand the labor market in Boise is limited (I live only a few hundred miles from Boise). I suck it up and fly to San Jose. You will be doing similar when HP shuts down, so list your house for sale now and beat the rush.
I guess I could litigate my way to employment, but for some odd reason I'd rather just compete on my skills.