EU Patents Won't Stay Dead 410
sconeu writes "Apparently the EC is ignoring the restart directive, and has placed software patents as an A-Item on the Council of Minister's agenda with an aim for approval on Monday." From the article: "The directive is pitched as offering greater protection for software developers. Opponents, including many in the European parliament, fear it will simply provide big players, including America's powerful and litigious software giants, with a very large stick to batter upstart developers and the Open Source movement." Update: 03/04 22:04 GMT by Z : And just as quick as you please Denmark stops things in their tracks. Denmark's objection means that there will have to be further debate before the patents get the stamp.
Well (Score:5, Insightful)
The European computer patent measure seems to be aimed at stifling competition rather than encourage innovation - that is why it's not a good idea.
Unfortunate, the US patent system has the idea right but it's been misused into oblivion (with wonderful contributions from those granting patents, too) - but it was never created for the reasons that the European Computer Implemented Inventions Directive is being created for.
Damn unfortunate.
Re:Creativity stifling... (Score:1, Insightful)
No but India now has software patents thanks to WIPO/US presure.
Ask yourself two things (Score:3, Insightful)
Who has enough money to be able to spend it to get this through because Linux is starting to gain popularity?
I won't answer either but we all know the answer.
Re:Well (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't need to give people the power to stop OTHER people from innovating in order to encourage THEM to innovate.
Protects small developers? (Score:5, Insightful)
How does the patenting of the components and standard processes of computing protect the small developers if the small developers are no longer allowed to freely develop?
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:5, Insightful)
Patriotism has no substance and is always pure rhetoric and therefore invalid, move beyond it.
Re:Well (Score:1, Insightful)
If you are a lone programmer (or a small independent group) who comes up with something that you need to make money out of, patents genuinely help you.
Just as how if you are a lone inventor who comes up with something new and innovative.
You see, the spirit behind patents is to give you complete control of your idea, while at the same time letting others know of your idea so that they can further it independently, but you have complete control over *your* idea for a while and a time-frame during which you can capitalize on that innovation.
However, corporations have skewed that whole thing completely - that does not mean the spirit of software patents is wrong. Folks are misusing it, the idea is still to give you a legal way of capitalizing on your idea.
This is how it always goes... (Score:3, Insightful)
Anytime you put a bad law or tax or whatever up for a vote.
It gets voted down. So the powers that be hold another vote. Repeat until the TPTB gets what it wants. No rule in place to keep you from asking over and over, like a nagging kid wanting candy.
Same thing in my home town over a property tax for schools. Put it up for a vote, and it's a no. Do it again. And again. And finally it goes through. And the school board starts doing backflips. Whee! A mandate from the masses!
Any truly fair system would hold a single vote, on a single topic - and then no more. Not forever, but for say...at least 7 years or so.
Re:Well (Score:3, Insightful)
The idea behind patents is -
Help you capitalize on your idea
Give you a lead over others so that you are the only one who can legally use it for a while
Put the idea for all others to see and extend on
The idea is not to STOP others, but give you a lead over others since you invented it in the first place. Remember, that is not a bad idea in itself because if you are a 16 year old kid in a basement who comes up with your own idea, it can genuinely protect you. On the other hand, it is being misused by folks to patent obvious things and STOP others.
Blame the patent office for granting those patents, but not the idea behind patents in general.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
> something that you need to make money out of, patents genuinely help you.
Copyright helps me, having to do a patent search for every 15 lines of code helps nobody!
> that does not mean the spirit of software patents is wrong.
The spirit of software patents? Some things were excluded from patent protection for a good reason, math, literature and computer software included!
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:5, Insightful)
Decisions made by the Council must be unanimous. The Software Patents directive has been placed on the agenda as an A-list item (one that is passed without discussion unless a council member vetos it). Previously it has been prevented from passing by Poland, twice, and Denmark, once (I think).
It is the Council that will pass the Software Patents directive on Monday, unless another Council member vetos it: stage 5 of the flowchart at http://europa.eu.int/comm/codecision/stepbystep/d
The flowchart says "approves all the EP's ammendments" but (I believe that) the Parliament didn't make any modifications to the directive at the time of the first reading, because it predates any of our lobbying to make them aware of how bad the directive will be for the European software industry.
Political disinterest (Score:5, Insightful)
And it is now SO LOW that corruption rises steeply. This is corruption, isn't it? Not calling it corruption would euphemise it.
Maybe, people still care a bit about what the media say. The media don't say anything about 'smaller political issues', only the important ones.
But the media also decide what "important issues" are. For example they redefine that corruption is about privately using frequent-flyer-miles (not ok, of course, but corruption?), about contacts of politicians into red-light districts (wtf?!)
They let politicians talk about "high-tech", "information economy" etc.pp. But if important laws are proposed in this area, they do not notice or they do not want to notice.
If the Minister for Economic Affairs overrides decisions of the cartel office for apparently no good reason (as it happened here in germany), it's pictured as "saving the economy". Arrrrrrgh!
If they push this through, "we" should not stop trying to prevent software patents. We should lobby for the abolition of software patents then. But this will be hard.
Sometimes, I have the vision for 2020-2030 of some grey-haired FLOSS developers drinking tea together and being nostalgic about the wild times where software development wasn't illegal and fundamental rights were still respected.
But I can not, in any way, accept such a development.
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:2, Insightful)
Is that why the title reads US influence peddling goes world-wide? If I were to say European ass-kissing goes world-wide, would it sound like I was blaming Europe, or just the politicians who accepted bribes?
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:3, Insightful)
But when you try to sell that program, along comes a big business that says "we want to buy your one idea for a small sum of money - oh, and by the way your program contravenes 73 of our patents on trivial obvious programming ideas. So either you take our offer, or else we sue you into oblivion".
Somehow this reminds me of..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Anything and everything just seems to be getting more and more messed up in the world of politics today. My only question is what will be the 21st century equivalent of the guillotine? Laser guns? Oh please, please let it be laser guns!!! =D
Re:Well (Score:3, Insightful)
> something that you need to make money out of, patents genuinely help you.
Nope. In practice, if I patent some software, and then Microsoft rips me off. I have the following options:
a) Sue Microsoft, and run out of money
b) Sue Microsoft, and be sued in return for voilating thousands of their trivial patents
Great choice!
The spirit of software patents IS wrong. You can not patent mathematics.
Furthermore, you can not say that the spirit of patents in general is a good idea. In every field where you want to implement patents, you must investigate, independantly, whether they do more harm than good.
Re:I don't understand (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:5, Insightful)
So the thread title isn't that far off. Even though the US people don't think of corporations first when they see "US", the rest of the world pretty much does (that or the wrong end of an M16).
IF this happens, what next ? (Score:1, Insightful)
remember this is only an example of their undemocratic mindset. removing the people who are influenced by what are essentially bribes from the USA will help prevent same/similar from occuring in the coming few years.
it is essential to record the names of the people under the influence of the US corps. and hold their feet to the fire/defang them in the coming months..whatever happens monday.
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, a shame that these so called "representatives" aren't even elected, so they don't even answer to the citizens of the countries they "represent". Don't you find it odd that the elected portion of the EU repeatedly turned down software patents while these "representatives" are going full steam ahead?
the groupthink here won't allow me to expound on that, so I won't bother.
To counter groupthink, you'd have to first think, but most of the people who blindly defend software patents fail to do that.
What do you think will happen if this EU directive passes, and countries that previously did not accept software patents are forced to accept patents from those countries that do? You ARE aware that software patents are allowed in some countries, and that the EU is acting in its capacity to "smooth out" legal differences to facilitate trade right? Just wanted to make sure you're not spouting off bullshit about things you have no clue about. So what happens when your 5-year-old product meets the 2-year-old patent that suddenly materializes from another country where they didn't care about your software as prior art?
Before you bitch and whine about groupthink, note that this post has nothing to do with goodness or badness of patents, or abuse of the patent system or anything, it simply points out that the change in patent law will allow companies in countries with patents to wake up one day and crush everyone else.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:2, Insightful)
> patent to it.
Any engineer who was faced with the problem would have solved it, just because somebody was the first to solve a problem in a particular way shouldn't prevent someone else from solving the problem and arriving at the same answer.
> I think you're confusing patents and copyrights.
No I'm not, copyright is suitable for protecting literature, music, films and software. Patents are suitable for protecting physical inventions.
Re:To which extent? (Score:4, Insightful)
But those over 30000 illegally issued software patents give us an idea of the future.
They include basic user interface widgets like tabs (EP689133).
FFII has a list of the last 100 software patents they found [ffii.org].
Re:Well (Score:1, Insightful)
This is the myth the keeps the general public supporting patents. How in the world is a 16 year old even going to know if an idea is patentable, much less afford a patent? Then given that, how will this 16 year old get the money to enforce it? Patents don't help inventors they help capitalists. You need capitol to get and enforce a patent, lots of capitol.
Some many people believe in the myth of the lone inventor striking it rich with a great idea. It doesn't happen. It's never happened. Yet, it's used as the excuse for maintaining this stupid patent system.
Becoming a republic won't help. (Score:2, Insightful)
Just look at us: we've never had a royal family in our whole history as an independant country, yet we still have the Kennedys.
Re:Bring on the civil war! (Score:3, Insightful)
Your civil war was a long time ago and you may think wars are a romantic way to solve conflicts. Here in Europe people remember the last two wars we fought, and we don't labor under such notions. We won't go to war over a perceived democratic deficit (which is funny, coming from a nation with only two parties, which are identical anyway), and we certainly will not go to war over software patents.
And before you ask - we don't need liberating at this time. Thanks for asking, though. No, we don't have oil.
Re:This must be stopped (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed it must, but not for that reason. Who gives a shit about European software developers (says I, a European software developer)?
What's really important is that the European Comission (we-the-comissioned as in non-elected b"euro"crats.) put forward this bill. The Concil of Ministers ("we-the-elected") voted against it.
The European Parliment ("we-the-people") ordered a restart of the whole process.
Rewind.
The CoM resubmitted the proposal, this time as a please-rubberstamp-me item, which should be reserved for uncontroversial bills. Only through massive public uproar did we get the EP to notice, and vote down the proposal again.
The EP (as you may remeber, "we-the-people") ordered a restart, again.
The EC, totally against all rules flatly refuses and are now submitting the law again, rubber-stamp-fashion.
No doubt the EC will continue to flout the EP and resubmit the bill again and again until by a fluke it gets voted through.
The EP has only two options. Sit down and take it, or fire the EC. Everyone seems to think the latter would be to extreme, I for one do not.
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm not being anti-capitalist here, I'm just suggesting that there's more to existing in a society than personal profit.
Re:Well (Score:1, Insightful)
> it. It takes skill to solve the problem, and hence the patent.
If they were given time and resources to solve that problem, they would have. If somebody had sufficient interest in solving that problem, they would have. Somebody may still solve that problem independently and be unable to seek just rewards for their skill because of the patent. I doubt that there's anything patentable myself, it's propbably just sufficiently abstracted that the PO can't see the math through the semantics!
> If I find a beautiful island with full of pretty chicks, there is no reason I
> should share it with someone or let someone else use it down the line. Sure, it
> would be nice of me if I did - but there is NO obligation whatsoever.
Poor analogy! I land, set up a beach hut and the chicks come to live with me because I'm hotter. That level of competition is what patents prevent, you have no right to a monopoly on your island. Patents are a deal with society granting a temporary monopoly in return for public disclosure, there's no benefit to society from allowing patents on software.
> That however does not give you the right to stop others from patenting their
> stuff.
Nobody has any rights to a monopoly, we allow patents on certain things because there is a benefit to society in doing so. Individuals not being able to write software because of the patent minefield is not of benefit to society and never will be!
> I can patent a musical method, too, if I can prove it has a utility value and
> it is unique. Same for things like films and many other things.
Good luck with that.
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:2, Insightful)
Link please Mr AC?
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:5, Insightful)
The EU is NOT a fucked up idea, the current organisation is. Of course, the US are not exactly pleased by the increasing power of the EU, but hey...
By the way, software patents are GOOD. They DO protect the small developer. As a small developer who has a couple of software patents that I have successfully licensed, I can PERSONALLY vouch for them. Of course, the slashbots don't want to hear this. The current issue with patents isn't the fact that there are software patents, but maybe the fact that there are cases where they have been granted without a good reason. Saying that "patents are bad" is just silly.Bullshit. Even "normal" patents have bad side effects for the famous "little guy", and we're here talking about SOFTWARE patents, patents on ideas. That's the dumbest thing ever. I doubt that you're saying the truth with your "I can vouch for them" (ie, as an AC I think you're just pulling shit out of your ass), but even if that's the case, you should realize that your situation is the exception, not the norm, and by far. Software patents are used by big company to stiffle innovation. Ask bill gates, he wrote it black on white.
Re:US influence peddling goes world-wide (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Here they are... (Score:4, Insightful)
What is Ireland's stake in this? It used to be one of the poorest EU members, but the IT industry is booming over there. A particular type of IT, that is:
"U.S. investment in Ireland stands at $55.4 billion--more than four times the amount invested in China, according to James Kenny, a Chicago builder who became U.S. ambassador to Ireland last year.
American businesses have created more than 90,000 jobs in Ireland, but more telling, said Kenny, is the increasing value of those jobs. When Microsoft began manufacturing software in Ireland 20 years ago, the average salary at the plant was about $20,000; today that facility has grown into Microsoft's European Operations Center, with 1,100 employees and an average salary of about $65,000." (Chicago Tribune, numbers are stale)
The position of Poland is even more remarkable when you realize that Poland itself is also a potential cheap "European Operations Center" for non-European companies like Micro$oft. I think Poland either doesn't understand yet how modern democracy works, or they are pissed with the US because they feel they didn't get paid well for the services rendered to the US in the 'coalition' that attacked Iraq.
Uh? (Score:2, Insightful)
EU Patents Won't Stay Dead
Euro ministers set to OK patent measure
European Parliament votes to scrap software patent text
EC rebuffs Parliament's patent restart request
Reboot ordered for EU patent law
Open source prepares to kiss EU patent ass goodbye
EU patents vote delayed
EU patent law stumbles, fail
European Parliament Throws Out Patent Bill
My head is spinning. Perhaps, I haven't fully absorb the new Euro government structure and its basic triangle relationship between the EC, EuroParliment and Patent. But these medias aren't helping with their front-page titles.
The only one that I understand is this one article:
Linus Torvalds against EU patent directive
--
Sorry for not putting links in the aboves title. I don't believe in karma whoring.
Re:Well (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the good old "guns don't kill people, people do". It's neither here nor there -- the system is being systemically abused, so much so that the original idea(l)s don't really matter a lot. I'm also not quite sure where you got the idea that EU system was designed to stifle innovation -- I seriously doubt that was the expressed intent. Rather, there was lots of talk about harmonization, and levelling the playin gfield. not that I care much about the official reasonings, but since you imply they differ between US and European systems (which I don't think is the case).
What you are basically saying that EU patent system extension would be just ok, if the rhetorics being used were more noble. I think talk is cheap, and the end result would be the same no matter how eloquently the background ideals were expressed.
Further, I think that there is plenty wrong with patents, as far as they extend to software and business methods. For one they are useless (copyrights are enough); and for another they are dangerous (abuse by companies specializing in enforcing patents instead of building anything based on designs being patented).
I can accept time-limited patents for mechanical inventions, and (grudgingly) for chemical compounds (or, preferably, only for methods for creating specific compounds); but that's because they already exist, and there are some reasonably arguments for them. For software, I'd much rather not have any patentability whatsoever. And I'm confident that this would be to my best interest, even as the "small guy", coming up with innovative software algorithms and designs. I don't need abuse-ridden system to ostensibly "protect" me.
Re:This is how it always goes... (Score:2, Insightful)
It will be almost impossible for them to introduce and pass subsequent law to reverse established law than to pass some law to get what they want from a supposedly "ambiguous" situation (despite the European Patent Convention explicitly stating that software is not a an invention and not patentable). A large part of their argument and support comes from the claim that software patents "is current practice" and that they are simply harmonizing that "current practice".
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Re:Sack the EU Commission? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you'd read the Articles of Impeachment, Clinton was impeached for Lying to a Grand Jury (if I had lied to a Grand Jury at the same time as he did, I'd still be in jail, fwiw).
Also, the President has much LESS "control of the country" than you seem to believe - the economy folding had little, if anything, to do with the impeachment, and much more to do with the fact that people suddenly realized that they had invested a great deal of money in companies with no profits, and no prospect of making a profit in the near future (I wish I were unscrupulous enough to have taken advantage of the dotCom boom - I'd be retired now, and all I'd have had to do is come up with something to sell on the Net, below cost, but made up for with high volume)
The dotCom boom/bust was fascinating to watch - so much like 1929. But it wasn't Clinton who caused the boom, nor was it Clinton's fault it went bust.
What, if anything, has Microsoft invented? (Score:3, Insightful)
You have any doubt? Let us look at Microsoft then as they are the biggest and surely the "most innovative." Which world famous products of theirs have shown them to be the great innovators that all else copy?
MS-DOS? A clone of existing operating systems. They took someone else's idea, made their own implementation, and profited.
Their greatest triumph? Windows OS. So can we assume Microsoft created the first graphical operating system? The first window based operating system? The first point-and-click, mouse navigated operating system? No, no and no. In all three cases they took an existing idea from someone else, extended it and profited.
Which is exactly what small companies and open source projects do. But we're getting ahead of ourselves...
Tell me then, what is the second item Microsoft is famous for? MS Office. So then, did Microsoft invent the word processor? Spreadsheet? Email client? Database? Not one thing that Microsoft is famous for is a software idea of their own invention. In every case they have extended a previous software idea. And have gotten rich doing it.
This is how software has ALWAYS been created... until now.
Software patents are simply a tool for the mighty to beat the young in manners they themselves were NEVER subjected to. If the EU passes this proposal they should be consistent and pass a proposal to allow adults to choke and stifle children, to choke them until they die. Sure, we understand that we became adults because someone else was leanient toward us. Just as the process of creating software was leanient toward today's giants. Should that debt cause us to extend the same courtesy toward those that come after us?
Pass software patents? Let us be consistent then: punish the weak, the poor, the young, the lessers - all they who fall outside the scope of the "master race." Good Nazi's vote in favour of patents.
Re:Well (Score:1, Insightful)
Or do they just not charge extra if the case takes more than a day?
Re:Well (Score:4, Insightful)
If the idea behind patents is clumsy and vague enough that it can't be implemented without the patent office in question granting these disastrous "bad" patents, then wouldn't this essentially indicate some kind of flaw in the idea itself? Because frankly, every patent system in the world so far that allows software patents has granted these bad patents in great number.
It's kind of like, oh I don't know, communism. If Leninism is a good idea so long as you can get an incorrupt and wholly selfless state, but you can't ever get an incorrupt and wholly selfless state, maybe Leninism itself is just not such a good idea.
The patent concept is inherently inappropriate for computer programs. It cannot be implemented in a reasonable fashion, and attempts to implement it through bureaucracy are doomed to spectacular failure.
But software is different (Score:3, Insightful)
Things are different with software. Firstly, you don't need vast resources to mass-produce software. A web site is about all you need; and reasonable servers and bandwidth are within almost everyone's reach these days.
Secondly, there's already something preventing a big company from copying your work and selling it as their own: copyright.
So patents don't work for the little guy in the same way (even when they're working as designed, which they don't seem to be). What do they do for him? Why do you have them? Beats me.
Re:documentation pro patents? (Score:2, Insightful)
I can't think of a single software patent whose invention was popularized by the patent holder and it helped the industry, which knew it was patented. Not one.
See, the thing about software patents: Either you a) know about them, and you do something a different way (aka XOR cursors), b) you know about them, but can't do it a different way (aka MP3 players and one click shopping), or c) you don't know about them, and you use them unwittingly (aka Eolas), or d) you have a cross licensing agreement with the patent holder.
Many times b) starts as c).
There's no software patent that people go 'Well, I don't need to use that patented method, but I think I will and pay a royalty anyway', because it's incredibly easy to create alternate methods. And thus software patents are pretty stupid to start with.
No one in their right mind would ever chose to use a patented method if there was another way of doing something that was just as easy. So all money-making software patents are over something there is not another way to do it, which shouldn't be patentable in the first place!