Microsoft's 'IsNot' Patent Continued... 566
An anonymous reader writes " According to the patent application--filed in mid-November by Paul Vick, lead architect for Visual Basic .Net at Microsoft; Amanda Silver, a program manager on the Visual Basic team; and an individual in Bellevue, Wash., named Costica Barsan--the IsNot operator is described as a single operator that allows a comparison of two variables to determine if the two point to the same location in memory." This article continues the tale started last november, and here is an eWeek story on the same subject.
Oh please! (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh please. I remember our programming instructor in sixth grade teaching us about this logic operator is BASIC. This is simply an effort (albeit transparent) for Microsoft to continue to duplicate pre-existing code for Microsoft specific code to ensure that programs written with Microsoft specific tools will maintain future market share for the company. In other words, the creation of a Microsoft specific "equals" means that code years down the road will require Microsoft specific tools to edit/change/run this code. I call shenanigans! This is not innovation in any technical sense and indeed is not even innovation in a business sense.
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Insightful)
Doubleplus recursive ungood (Score:3, Insightful)
You forget the most humerous part.
Microsoft is patenting an operation which basicly is CMP at assembly level. This means that Microsoft is patenting something they are using obvious prior art to acomplish. Now, if this goes trough, Intel and AMD will have to pay Microsoft royalties, for Microsoft to have an OS on the x86 platform!
As far as patent abuse and patent chaos goes, this is without a doubt the best, the most stupid and most tailbiting shit I've seen so far.
So far, because I don't rule out
Re:Oh please! (Score:3)
But I bet it IsNOT too far until they do.
And I think this IsNOT a far-fetched scenario. Face it, Billy. The world IsNOT meant to be run by one company.
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Insightful)
On the contrary, it seems that being able to slip surious patents through the system is an important business skill these days. If something isn't done to clean up the USPTO it might even become an essential skill for any business's survival.
Re:Oh please! (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Find something that is well known and patent it.
2) Sue some big company for using your patent.
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Insightful)
3) ???
4) Profit!
Where '???' probably involves ensuring you can pay at least as much for your lawyers as the big company you sued.
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Insightful)
The business plan of this decade:
1) Find something that is well known and patent it.
2) Sue some big company for using your patent.
Actually, the business plan for several decades has been:
See Patent Nonsense [fourmilab.ch] for an example of how this happened to Autodesk just before they went public.
Rich.
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Funny)
sed -e 's/isNot/!=/g' msCode.c > ./gnuCode.c>
Re:Oh please! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Insightful)
Ask the Virtual Dub guy what he did when he got his cease-and-desist letter in the mail from Microsoft.
Re:Oh please! (Score:4, Interesting)
What are you talking about. Both Ballmer and Gates have said publicly that they intend to "defend their intellectual property vigorously". That's CEO speak for we are going to sue. Furthermore according to Perens MS has told HP that they intend sue open source projects for patents and sendmail was mentioned by name.
Finally just google. Ms has sued many people for intellectual property violations. Remember Mike Rowe? If Ms is willing to sue a 16 year old boy you think they are not going to sue for patent infrigement?
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Insightful)
Well then, why don't they lobby to get software patents banned in the U.S.? If the only reason they want patents is to protect themselves from patent lawsuits, then why don't they lobby Congress to get all patents, both theirs and those of others, stricken invalid, levelling the playing field in one swoop?
Money drives Congress. Is it logical? Is it popular? Is it right? These things are usually given shorter shrift than whether some interest
Not quite (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Oh please! (Score:2)
Re:Now look here... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, the USPTO seems to have a large rubber approve stamp to use on all MS patent applications. Microsoft has already receieved several patents of dubious merit, many of which have been talked about here in the past.
People are still getting too caught up on the wrong thing. The problem isn't even what MS is getting a patent on. The problem is a system that allows anyone to patent software at all. Software is already protected by copyright, it had no need for patent protection as well. By allowing people to patent software, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Innovation will grind to a halt. Who wants to spend years reviewing a large program for potential patent violations? The only companies that will be able to write software will be those that have obtained cross-licensing agreements with one another. In other words, the big companies like MS and IBM. The day of the small programming shop are numbered.
Very few companies innovate. Most have climates that stifle innovation rather than encourage it. Large companies are good at buying up small companies that have made innovations and then turning those innovations into money makers.
If we eliminate the small start ups that are responsible for the majority of innovations in our country, we will be giving away even more of our jobs to other countries who have more rational approaches to intellectual property protection.
In the event we manage to force everyone to acknowledge and enforce software patents throughout the world, we'll slow the pace of innovation in technology at a time when it is needed more than ever.
Re:Now look here... (Score:4, Insightful)
Speak for yourself mate. This is a US only problem, it's not affecting the rest of us. What's happening is US inovation is speeding up on it's continual decline. Been that way for about 10 years I'd say, and the legal aspect has been a huge part of it. Come up with something new that replaces X? Get sued by the makers of X. When was the last time you heard of the latest gadget coming from the US? Or the take up of some new technology? Broadband was the last big US-led inovation I can think of, other than the segway. In terms of mobile phones, the US is about 3 years behind the UK, and we tail Japan by another year. Television; we'll we've had digital widescreen for about five years, with interactive programming for 3 of them and now recently video on demand (real, with pause controls etc). Over on your side of the pond you are still debating broadcast-flags and the like! You can't do that to innovation, it's not innovative. Someone WILL come along and beat you to it. For example, BitTorrent and RSS is so much more elegant than over-the-air broadcasting, and it threatens to replace TV altogether. Where will the broadcast flag be then? And all the wavelengths auctioned off at high prices? Some one needs to pull their head out the sand quicktime!
The US is going to feel the pain from this for a long time. It's in the finacial shitter and it's digging a deeper hole for itself with each new corporate bought law. A lot of finacial experts believe that this is a large influnce on the "nation building" as they call it. While the war is a cost on the tax payer, it's incredibly good business and the spoils will filter down the economy and give it a kick start. But the world has gotten more complex, with more communication between everyone. You can't just go around starting wars everytime the moneys tight anymore. People start to boycot your products; they refuse to go to your country and you do lose out. It's a PR nightmare.
But that's thing nowadays. Countries mean squat. No one wants to be king or president. You get far more power and pay in business and it's far more obtainable. What the US government doesn't realise is that corporations can only be depended on to do one thing; whatever is in their own best interests. There will come a time when those businesses decide to move elsewhere, as that will be in their best interest. They hold no loyalty to the state. And when those rats leave the ship, there isn't going to be much left.
Re:Now look here... (Score:3, Informative)
Need I go on? You can see some more here:
Enter The 'Stupid Patent Tricks' Contest [slashdot.org]
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Insightful)
But it is the same as "Not equal to" applied to the address of the variable:
a isNot b
is equivalent to:
&a != &b
So, it's still a pretty trivial concept...
It depends ... (Score:2, Funny)
- Kevin
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Informative)
So, it's equivalent to:
((&a != &b) && (a.host != b.host))
Which is yet more complex but still not worth patenting a simplification on.
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Interesting)
The IsNot operator described in the patent also differentiates between objects with the same address in different memory spaces.
I'm sure CORBA has been doing this for years with one of the methods in the base CORBA::Object class. I think the method's called equivalent(), but it's been a while since I did any CORBA - in fact I'm having to endure the pathetic MicroSoft alternative that is SOAP.
Re: Oh please! (Score:5, Informative)
> But it is the same as "Not equal to" applied to the address of the variable [...] So, it's still a pretty trivial concept...
There's also single-operator prior art in the Scheme neq? operator.
(I don't know whether it's standard, but it is provided by some interpreters.)
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Informative)
Well, in C, if a and b are strings, structures, or arrays, then the variable name is the same as the address.
Therefore a != b when you're testing if the 'two variables point to the same location in memory' is covered by friggin' PDP-11 architechture. It's basically a comparison of two integers and a BNZ (branch non-zero) instruction.
They can make all the claims they want about how they've done all sorts of innovative stuff to make the link novel, it's still comparing a pointer reference in a programming language as far as I can seem.
What's next, start patenting the AND, NOT, OR family of operations? I hope not!
Re:Oh please! (Score:4, Interesting)
!= is a single operator eventhough it uses two characters.
My guess is this is just the fruits of an internal employee reward patent policy. MS execs probably did not even know about this, and its the engineers going wild. Just a guess.
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Informative)
isNot != 4 letters
-nB
Re:Oh please! (Score:4, Informative)
a and b are references, which are pointers in the C sense:
So the C code would be:
int *a, *b;
if (a != b) {
}
The extension to C++ usage is obvious to a skilled practioner.
And the (new, patent pending or granted?) Microsoft BASIC approach is:
if a isNot b then
The equivalence is EXACT between != and isNot. I am a skilled at programming, and I find it obvious.
Microsoft will NEVER defend this patent. 'Cause they will lose.
PS. Object equality vs. Value equality is carefully delineated in "Smalltalk, The Language and Its Implementation" (just the reference I had at hand, there are HUNDREDS of other discussions -- usually for stuff a bit more interesting though).
Ratboy.
Re:Python (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe part of Microsoft's patent is spelling it with studlyCaps.
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Informative)
From Lisp primer [iu.edu]:
= (= x y) is true if and only x and y are numerically equal.
equal As a rule of thumb, (equal x y) is true if their printed representations are the same (i.e. if they look the same when printed). Strictly, x and y are equal if and only if they are structurally isomorphic, but for present purposes, the rule of thumb is sufficient.
eq (eq x y) is true if and only if they are the same object (in most cases, this means the same object in memory).
eql (eql x y) is true if and only if they are either eq or they are numbers of the same type and value.
So what Microsoft is trying to patent is known in LISP as (not (eq a b)) for a long time already :(
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Funny)
Well I can't help you. Stop calling me!
Re:Oh please! (Score:5, Funny)
They're only calling you 'cause they're too polite to call the person they really want. [slashdot.org]
Re:Oh please! (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, it's not the same operator.
They're talking about creating an operator that can say if two objects are the EXACT same object or not.
In C++ terms this is the equivalent of doing *ptr != *ptr (!=) vs. ptr != ptr (IsNot).
As you all know, int a = 1 and int b = 1 does mean that &a != &b whereas it does not mean that a != b.
So, basically they're trying to patent a new keyword wi
Re:Oh please! (Score:2)
If you want to compare contents you use the equals() method.
101101 + basic context (Score:5, Funny)
Re:101101 + basic context (Score:3, Funny)
Hey, they could patent 0 and 1, and anything derived from there could be covered by that patent.
Re:101101 + basic context (Score:3, Funny)
Re:101101 + basic context (Score:5, Funny)
Re:101101 + basic context (Score:2)
1. A method to logically group bits into groups and give special patterns in such a group a distinct meaning.
2. As 1, where each group consists of 8 bits [I think I'll trademark the name "byte" and use it for that group]
3. As 1, where the patterns are interpreted as numbers through the following procedure or any procedure which gives the same result:
a) The rightmost bit is multiplied, and each other bit is multiplied by a number which is twice the number the
In other news, English patented by MS (Score:2, Funny)
Thinking the words are discounted at 10% over spoken words!
Re:In other news, English patented by MS (Score:2)
Re:In other news, English patented by MS (Score:3, Informative)
Also today... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Also today... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Also today... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Link? (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/19650 [heise.de]
http://www.golem.de/0307/26462.html [golem.de]
Both in german, however, because the lawsuits were in Germany and probably not big news in english speaking countries.
Re:Also today... (Score:3, Informative)
Uh, oh. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Uh, oh. (Score:2)
Re:Uh, oh. (Score:2)
Re:Uh, oh. (Score:2)
We're going to have a Supreme Court case arguing either what Is is?* Or, to be more direct, you need to argue that Is is not IsNot? But then if IsNot is something, then it Is something?
Yes, this makes perfect sense.
* See Clinton's Grand Jury testimony.
The lame thing is... (Score:3, Insightful)
If Not foo Is Bar Then
End If
Which is apparently too hard to remember for these VB.NET programmers. In a way it's awkward of course, you write as a C#/C++ programmer: If Foo
So VB.NET designers thought... what about an IsNot operator? This really shows their inability to think: Coll
as was testified under oath (Score:5, Funny)
Ridiculous IP claims have been the death of SCO... (Score:3, Insightful)
When they're resorting to patenting what appear to me to be boolean operations with an object-oriented twist, that's a bad sign about what real plans the company doesn't have.
Re:Ridiculous IP claims have been the death of SCO (Score:5, Funny)
> When they're resorting to patenting what appear to me to be boolean operations with an object-oriented twist, that's a bad sign about what real plans the company doesn't have.
Yes, but think how useful it could be in their advertising campaign:
IsNot reliable
IsNot secure
IsNot a good idea
...
Re:Ridiculous IP claims have been the death of SCO (Score:5, Insightful)
I think SCO had been in decline for years before resorting to frivolous IP claims. It seems to me that their business model (sell a mediocre version of Unix on highly specialized machines to retailers) wasn't working well, their profits sank and they saw the writing on the wall. In comes a new CEO known for pushing IP litigation and *bang* they have a new business model overnight.
MS is in a different place. I think they will probably go into decline eventually, but they have a long way to go before their business model fails the way SCO's did.
Taft
I don't see... (Score:3, Insightful)
People didn't take the hyperlinking patent seriously did they?
Thats nothing! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Thats nothing! (Score:5, Funny)
But not both?
Feh, meh and other sheep noises (Score:4, Insightful)
And thus Microsoft will have another patent paper to toss onto the pile like so many unwanted gelatine Desserts.
Microsoft Patenting Non-Existence? (Score:5, Funny)
Rumor has it that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Honest Politicians Society and Slashdotters with girlfriends are all filing suit claiming that they're proof of prior art...
In all seriousness, the fact that a patent like this is even entertained is a more than a bit disturbing. How in the world one can patent a logical operator is simply beyond me...
Wow, nice bias (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.panopticoncentral.net/archive/2004/1
He says, among other things that software patents are a "bad idea" and that he did not "feel particularly proud of my involvement in the patent process in this case".
So there you have it, from the horse's mouth.
Re:Wow, nice bias (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Wow, nice bias (Score:2)
"hey, i thought it was something that one shouldn't even have been able to do with good intentions.. but well, you know.. i did it anyways. helps my bonuses you know. then i procedeed to sue the orphanarium because that was also a bad idea but hey, it was worth some bucks and technically legal"
What about Europe? (Score:5, Insightful)
What am I missing?
Dear Microsoft, you have competition!!11 (Score:2, Funny)
I heard about your new IsNot, I think it is so elloquent and r33t, but someone has gone and copied you with a '==' object comparator that decides if the references point to the same memory area!
I say sue!
Yours,
A Microsoft Fan-Boy
Sue the Patent Office? (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's pretend this patent goes through; could RealSoftware Inc. sue the patent office for failing in it's duty? I mean, there has to be some liability here. If Microsoft can start patenting any crazy thing with their immense resources, and then everyone else has to scramble to get these patents knocked down, something has really gone wrong. Raise the patent fees so the USPO can really examine these patents. Make them liable for costs when a patent gets stricken for being obvious.
Re:Sue the Patent Office? - Probably Not (Score:4, Informative)
Unless the government specifically passes legislation allowing you to sue the government, then you can't sue the government. It's a legal concept called sovereign immunity and is derived from the ancient concept of "the divine right of kings."
Re:Sue the Patent Office? - Probably Not (Score:3, Informative)
Click here [wikipedia.org] for more info on the topic.
And that's not all... (Score:5, Informative)
Network drives and folder mapping [uspto.gov]
The Photo Album Software that came with your digital camera [uspto.gov]
The clickable progressbar found in all video and music playing software [uspto.gov]
The "recent" menu [uspto.gov]
Europe (Score:4, Funny)
Prior art? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Prior art? (Score:4, Informative)
It's just like the equivalent in Python: a is not b (or not a is b, I don't really understand the need for a separate operator). Only difference is that it's one word instead of two. And different capitalization (but isn't Basic case insensitive?)
Full Story? (Score:2)
I'm all for it! (Score:5, Insightful)
Go IsNot patent, go!
The sooner the industry is choked with these obvious lock-out bullshit patents, the sooner development will grind to a total stop for fear of litigation. And as soon as that happens, the system will have to be reformed.
Well, either that or we all give up tech completely and be farmers. It's in the court's hands now.
Makes sense to me. (Score:3, Funny)
Microoft IsNot reasonable.
Microsoft IsNot ethical.
Why shouldn't they get to patent "IsNot"?
Grab your Aristotle and run to the patent office (Score:2)
1. beginning (//START)
2. Cause
3. Element (+Arrays)
4. Nature (tyupe)
5. Necessary
6. One (probably prior art here)
7. Being (perfect! self-evident, but not obvious!)
8. Substance
9. The Same (PENDED: IsNot)
10. Opposite (Not)
11. Prior and Posterior: (patent this one first to protect against "Prior Art"))
12. Potency
13. Quantity
14. Quality (no rush on this one)
15. Relative ($$$)
16. Complete (n.b., get 'perpetual beta' first and nail those Google g
All we need now (Score:5, Funny)
Stupid patents are not the problem. (Score:2, Interesting)
For all the people complaining.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Do I think Microsoft should be able to patent this? Absolutely not, because I don't believe the basic core functions of the computer should be patentable. Now taking those functions and tying them together into a cohesive program should definitely be copyrightable, but patenting a computer adding two numbers together (This will happen eventually, I'll bet a C note on it) is ridiculus.
hear, hear! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:For all the people complaining.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Dear AC,
I'm guessing that not calling them "inbred fucktard morons" would be a good start..
Re:For all the people complaining.. (Score:3, Interesting)
This banding together is a good way to explain why we've seen the rise in fundamentalism and the seemingly standoffish posture of everyone in the very religious, very rural south (not to mention parts of the midwest and west). For years the int
Good precedent here (Score:2, Insightful)
Looks like a good test to me (Score:3, Funny)
Microsoft patents evil? (Score:3, Interesting)
Please, let this patent be granted (Score:3, Interesting)
Think of it: it should be easy to convince even a judge that this is an absolutely ridiculous patent claim. So invariably the judge will arrive at two conclusions: (a) this patent is invalid, and (b) the USPTO cannot do a good job. Especially (b) will go a long way in going back to a saner patent system.
Obligatory Onion Article (Score:3, Funny)
Microsoft Patents Zeroes, Ones [64.233.161.104]
This sounds like Lisp 'eq' (Score:3, Informative)
Common Lisp has a number of equality operators (eq, eql, equal, equalp, =) which are subtly different. CL differentiates among objects that are equal in type and value, equal in value regardless of type, are identical, or some combination of these.
Re:Microsoft patents patenting... (Score:2)
Re:Patent schmatent (Score:2)
Re:Patent schmatent (Score:4, Interesting)
I always thought that a good example of prior art is analog TV sync signals. The H and V sync are XORed because its easy to separate them using another XOR.
Re:Changing code again (Score:4, Informative)
Prior art (Score:5, Informative)
However, I think there is a closer parallel.
Consider the following java snippet:
Of course, underneath it is probably implemented with pointers, but the semantics of the != operator on reference types is defined to be object identity non-equality.
This prints out the following:
s1 is NOT s2
s1 EQUALS s2
The comparison operators in Java, when applied to reference variable types (which is everything other than built in primitive3 types) tell you whether the objects have the same identity (==) or different (!=).
Imagine, for example, instead of a conventional virtual memory architecture, we have an architecture where we have different kinds of memory with different speeds mapped to different address ranges; say that adresses under 1 million are fast memory and addresses 1 million or over are slow memory. This is not impossible to imagine for some kind of embedded device. Suppose, in addition, the runtime system understands this and caches copies of frequently used addresses in the below 1 million range to enhance performance.
In that case suppose we have the java expression:
if (objRef1 != objRef2)
In this case, a correct java implementation on this hypotethetical platform could not use a simple address comparision. If the addresses were unequal, it would have to do a further check to see if one of them were a cached version of the other.
Y'know, a news for nerds site really ought to make it possible to post code examples without resorting to stupid tricks like this: 2qy982uoiu 3o2iu4o23iuoi23u4 23o4uo23iu ou34oi 23oi4u o2i3u4o i234 lkasdfls llflawl fasdf ssdlllle asdf foo sdalkfl adlk;jlaskdf lsadf . as;ldkf
Re:Changing code again (Score:2)
Thanks for your (qualified?) guess on what the article reads.
But instead of accepting your guess what the patent is, I think I'll go ahead and RTFA.
Re:LISP, anyone? (Score:2)
And don't forget, God Wrote in Lisp [vub.ac.be].
Re:totalitarianism (Score:3, Informative)
I hate to say it, but that's no longer the case. For a couple of years now MS has had the most standards (ISO/ANSI) compliant compiler. In fact I think Microsoft even hired one of the main STL guys to help on this front...