Gates tried to Blackmail Danish Government

mocm writes "The Inquirer has a story about how Bill Gates tried to pressure the Danish prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen into accepting the European Union's proposed directive on software patents by threating to terminate the 800 jobs at Navision, which had been acquired by Microsoft." Update: 02/16 00:41 GMT by T : cfelde points out a CNET story which says that "The European vice president of Microsoft Business Solutions, Klaus Holse Andersen, denied on Tuesday that the jobs at Navision were ever at risk." Believe who you'd like.

Microsoft has to pay people to use their software

[Joelphil]

how pathetic, maybe Bill Gates should be known as the evil tyrant. Not a very nice guy. But then, we knew that.

We the people ...

[ghoti]

We are going to get ruled more and more by corporations, rather than governments. Since Microsoft is making more than most American states, they also wield quite a bit of power. And since politicians can always be blackmailed with the prospect of lost jobs (Siemens did that in Germany, and lots of other comapnies too), I wonder how long until our right to vote is transferred to our employers ...

That does not make sense

[Arioch of Chaos]

These threats are common. However, is there really any relevant connection between where R&D/software development takes place and where one can apply for patents? Of course not. Nothing is preventing Microsoft from applying for US patents for the things they "invent" in Denmark. The question of where they can get a patent is not intrinsically linked to where they do their development.

The Golden Rule ...

[Anonymous Coward]

He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Re:Not blackmail

[IO ERROR]

Either way, it shows just how low Microsoft can go.

What's next, Mafia-style "hits" on politicians who don't do what Microsoft wants?

public interest versus corporate interest

[plinius]

Corporations are 'pressuring' public officials every day, often using bribes. The World Bank is well-known for bribing officials, and that info comes from the former head of the World Bank. Corporations are and the banks that represent their interests are always bribing people. Just look at Coca-Cola, charged with assassinating union leaders in Columbia: the assassins were govt-paid paramilitary agents, who set up a military camp outside of a factory after the assassination to intimidate the workers. When you look behind the veil of TV and the other media, what you see is sickening, frightening to some, and outrageous. After all, just look at how Bush stole the 2004 election in order to help the corporate interest: www.electionfraud2004.org.

Re:Not blackmail

[Hope Thelps]

Whatever it is, it's ludicrously transparent. According to the FFII's translation of the original Danish story, included in their statement [ffii.org]on this, Bill said:

"If I'm to keep my development center in Denmark, then it's a
requirement that the question of rights becomes resolved. Otherwise, I
will move it to the USA where I can protect my rights"

In fact, the location that development takes place has nothing to do with patent validity. Software developed in Denmark can be patented in the USA regardless of Danish or EU laws. Software developed in the USA cannot be patented in countries that don't recognise software patents, ragardless of US laws.

There's no way that Billis misinformed enough to think otherwise. If he showed occasional signs of honesty or integrity then he might get more respect.

Gates is full of it

[pesc]

I've heard this kind of logic from the patent lobby numerous times:

"If we don't get software patents in Europe, we can't develop stuff there. We have to develop in in the US where we have software patents available."

This is pure FUD and BS. Why can't we develop stuff in Europe and apply for patents in the US? Most of the technology in patent applications in Europe was developed in foreign countries.

The smart thing to do is to develop tech where you have smart people. And apply for software patents in the US and have a free market without software monopolies in Europe. If you develop a product that happen to infringe on a forest of software patents, you can only market it profitably in Europe. Too bad for the US.

I hope politicians learn to call this kind of extortionist bluff soon.

Danish better start a OSS project soon

[e_AltF4]

Converting all Danish government IT away from MS towards OSS will surely bring far more than 800 jobs and KEEP those in the country.

Go read some Gibson "Cyberpunk" books to see what you get if you let corporations run the world.

Just my 5€Cents.

Cut off your nose....

[91degrees]

Surely they purchased the company for a reason. The staff would have been part fo that reasons.

Laying off that many staff in a fit of pique would create a perfect opportunity for a competitor to set up a company that does pretty much the same thing with the same employees.

Re:Not blackmail

[the_womble]

In fact, the location that development takes place has nothing to do with patent validity. Software developed in Denmark can be patented in the USA regardless of Danish or EU laws

Confusing governments over that is a major part of the pro strong patent and copyright crowds argument. Without it the whole "without the aptent laws people ahve no incentive" argument falls apart.

for those who still believe in democracy...

[Fuzzums]

please wake up. it's "we, the corporations of the USA"

Re:Also covered by Groklaw

[Zocalo]

Have they quoted directly from the Danish source?

They have a rough translation from a Danish speaker so they should be pretty accurate. That's one of the things I really like about Groklaw, they *always* cite where translations have come from, and because of their global network of volunteers eventually get a proper translation from a native speaker. Their handling this kind of language translation issue is something that Groklaw excels at, and I wish more news sources would do the same.

Re:We the people ...

[ghoti]

True, but the question is: how much choice do we really have? There's basically a merger every day, corporations are buying up their competition, and there are quasi-monopolies in many areas. Microsoft is the prime example for this! A lot of things will need to happen for people to switch to alternative products - just look at what has already happened: spyware, viruses, crappy quality, etc. Have people switched? No. Not in significant numbers, anyway.

In theory, we have the power - whether as consumers or as voters. But in reality, I think we don't really have much choice.

I know I sound paranoid, but sometimes I just can't help it ...

Re:I don't know

[ergo98]

How mafioso

Software patents are largely bullshit, however there is nothing nefarious about a business negotiating with government for an optimal business environment. If Bill Gates really thinks that software patents are necessary for a business unit to be viable in a political region, then he has every legitimate right to express that. The government has the right to tell him to go screw himself, and if he really thinks it's do or die then he can pull out.

This sort of tactic is absolutely classic in many other business areas. Automakers these days only build plants where the government will concede to their demands, as well as often offering up hundreds of millions in incentives.

Re:Not blackmail

[Pieroxy]

If at least you would have read the article, you would have seen that Microsoft is not the only one company in the entire universe to do this. So no, is does not show how low Microsoft can go, it just shows how low any company can go.

Stop putting all evil on Bill's shoulders.

Re:For those who didn't read the article:

[wronski]

Gates said that he's displeased with the process of political decisions on software patents in the european union. In particular, he seems to be unhappy about the successful opposition by many european IT companies and software developers.

Thid democracy thing is really a drag. He might want to consider outsorcing to North Korea.

Re:Danish Government has Tough Decision

[archen]

I think either way, if I was one of those 800, I'd be looking for an alternative place of employment. I mean I certainly wouldn't want my job depending upon the whims of Bill Gates and his disapproval of some laws.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[thenextpresident]

The only way this could be construed as immoral or objectionable activity is if you accept the premiss that Microsoft's monopoly dominance is absolute and that there are no acceptable alternatives

Actually, this has nothing to do with monopolies. It's immoral because Gates is threatening to lay people off. 800 people out of work is not something a politician wants, nor does it help an economy. What Gates was doing was using the 800 employees welfare as leverage which is immoral.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[Hope Thelps]

The only way this could be construed as immoral or objectionable activity...

Rubbish. I'll decide what I do and don't find objectionable, thank you. I find threatening people's livelihoods in order to bully their governments into enacting the legislation you want to be very highly objectionable.

Describing natural consequences of legislation is acceptable. That isn't what they are doing here. The place in which software is developed has no impact on whether it is patentable in any given market. This is a threat, pure and simple, it's a threat against innocent employees as a way of pressuring others, and it should be resisted.

Re:You've got a lot of jobs there, Prime Minister

[MadMoses]

Set fire on them? I say, shoot back with: "We're really unhappy with Microsoft's plans to relocate Navision to the USA. We're also really unhappy about the cost and security holes of Windows. That's why we're thinking about switching all government offices to Linux."

Re:Reasonable Point of View gets modded down again

[Frnknstn]

Post as AC, and you get what you deserve.

common definiton: Racketeering

[192939495969798999]

Generally, something "arm twisting" like this is commonly considered "racketeering", meaning "if you don't do what we/I want, 'something bad' is going to happen".

Re:We the people ...

[garcia]

In theory, we have the power - whether as consumers or as voters. But in reality, I think we don't really have much choice.

People don't care about choice... If they did we wouldn't stand for monopolies in telephone, radio, TV, computers, etc.

People just want "life to be easy". If that means having one company make their descisions for them while they let the cable TV wash over them after work, so be it.

Who owns Microsoft anyway...

[osinarin]

from what I understand (which may be very little, who can tell such things!) Bill Gates doesn't own Microsoft and hasn't for a while, he only has a small stakeholding.

details here(new window) [yahoo.com]

anyway, sounds like bill's bark is worse than his bite. I dont think he has the authority to make this kind of decision for microsoft!!! (although you can argue the rest of his ms minions will follow he every command). Sounds like the danish pm has nothing to worry bout.

as to this tactic, its a normal business tactic. not suprised in the least, its how the world works.

Heaven forbid!

[ScentCone]

Change the players to something more politically correct, like a Hybrid Car factory, and watch exactly the same thing play out. Big companies always look to put their people, their money, and their wake-generating activity in a place (or tax framework) that best suits their bottom line. Why do you suppose that Japanese car manufacturers have partnership plants in Kentucky? Because Michigan was out of room? No, because they dangled issues like jobs in front of political decision makers, and the best deal won. Did the editors of this posting just fall off a turnip truck or something? That headline is gratuitous. Come on, now.

Correct word...

[abb3w]

is obviously Danegeld [newcastle.edu.au]. =)

Re:Not blackmail

[Dcnjoe60]

So you are saying that since some other companies may do this, too, that it's not low of Microsoft to do so? No matter how many companies may or may not do this, doesn't make it right and Microsoft should be slammed for attempting it (along with any other company). Since Bill Gates calls himself the Chief Architect at Microsoft, then any wrong-doings, evil or not, most definately are on his shoulders.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gates is threatening to lay people off. 800 people out of work

But working for Bill Gates' company is not a natural human right, so what is objectionable about this? Just because he is wealthy (and he's a self-made man, remember), those 800 people suddenly have control over his finances?

Say you had something for auction on eBay. One bidder contacts you and tells you he really needs the item you're auctioning, and he came to your eBay auction because he expected to get it at a low price. He tells you he expected to pay only 10% of what the auction's currently at, and it's not even over.

Do you have a moral imperative to stop the auction and sell the item to the beggar at the cost he wants? If not, why does Gates?

People do not have a right to be employed by Bill Gates, and if it will be such a disaster economically if he pulls out of an area you'd think the politicians would be bending over backwards to suit his demands -- seeing as how their livelihood is apparently utterly dependent on Mr. Gates' presence in their area of political control.

Re:Not blackmail

[anon*127.0.0.1]

You mean Microsoft isn't the only company in the history of forever to use the threat or promise of jobs to try to get favorable decisions from governments?

I'm shocked. Next you'll be telling me that companies decide where to build new factories based on what kind of tax breaks they can get.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find threatening people's livelihoods

You mean the ones Gates created and sustains of his own free will?

This is a threat, pure and simple, it's a threat against innocent employees

You mean the ones Gates himself employs?

The Stolen Concept [nathanielbranden.net]

Re:Danish better start a OSS project soon

[e_AltF4]

> If the purpose of the government is to create more state jobs
> at a greater expense to taxpayers, then you're right on the money.

"Greater expense" still has to be shown - we aren't talking about
Jane Doe's home PC here. Governments should think in longer time
frames and also should give some weight to vendor independance,
freedom of upgrade cycles, local IT jobs (including education, R&D
and stuff) and - as a bonus - getting rid of blackmail :-)

> However I don't really think that's what government should be
> trying to do. But then, we ARE talking about Europe...

Some of us may be in doubt that the US government would shut up
and comply if a Chinese or EU software monopoly would try those
"persuasion tactics" on them.

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[account_deleted]

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Re:Not blackmail

[araemo]

Why should we not hold microsoft accounable for doing something 'evil' like this? I'd like to hold every company that does this accountable, but most of the time we don't actually hear about it.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[miskatonic alumnus]

Your logic is astounding --- I guess we have no grounds to ojbect or complain about anything unless it violates a natural human right. Now genius, why not define natural human right for us.

Here is one for you. The corporation doesn't have a natural right to make a profit, nor use the roads that taxpayers pay for, nor the airwaves for communications that are owned by the people, etc. etc. etc. You corporate apologists make me want to puke.

Re:Not blackmail

[arkanes]

Not at all true. In some places, and in some times, the Mafia (or other organized crime) have essentially been the government. The difference is mainly one of perception and comfort. There's an implict threat of violence in every governmental action - go ask an anarchist about this sort of thing, they'll blab your ear off. The threat of violence, implicit or explicit, is often used in political negotiations.

They aren't the same, obviously. But it's a matter of degree and custom, not that they're totally different. Coercion is coercion is coercion.

alright i RTFA

[AviLazar]

This is not blackmail. The poster of this threat should be shot. At best this is extortion - more likely it is using political influence - just like MANY lobbyists do. You know when the NHL goes on strike for contract disputs, SEPTA goes on strike for contract disputes. When environmental groups lobby and put the squeeze on politicians. When car and oil companies do the same thing.

Frankly - it is also business. Billy probably was thinkign "if these guys want to screw me over with their .... then I am going to just pull my office from there so I don't get screwed..."

Wake up! Corporations are co-opting democracy

[ahodgkinson]

This is what happens when multi-national corporations gain wealth approaching that of medium sized nations. They tend to start (mis-)using the power that wealth affords them to promote their own agenda. While this is done for financial gain and not as evil for evil's sake, the result is a disproportionate balance of power/rights to the favor of the corporation at the expense of the private citizen, with little regard for unintended consequences that the public might suffer.

Unfortunately, multi-national corporations have a great deal to gain with such practices, and their expected value is actually fairly high, even taking into account the legal fees, fines and embarrassment of getting caught now and again.

Unfortunately, the public, as compared to the vested business interests, is generally apathetic, since they have less to lose individually, than the corporations. This means that the corporations will merely continue their efforts until the public loses interest and they succeed in converting their selfish desires into government policy. This may take years, but they have the focus to see it through to the end.

In the particular case, software patents, there has been public outcry in Europe against them and the politicians have generally listened. Each time we think the issue is close some massive business entity resurrects the discussion, in spite of the public opinion. Obviously this hasn't yet met with success and now Microsoft is attempting some innovative (sic) and repulsive tactics.

What should we as individuals do?

• Spread the word and name names. Tell your friends, your co-workers, you boss, or even better, your neighbor the elected official, that Microsoft has attempted to co-opt the democratic process in Denmark.
• Wite letters to newspapers, journals, and elected officials explaining why software patents are a bad idea in Europe.
• Vote with your feet. Stop buying/using products from companies that engage in unfair business and political practices.
• Donate to the EFT, Groklaw and other similar institutions.
• Remain vigilant.

If you dont know much about the arguments surrounding software patents, have a look at: http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com [nosoftwarepatents.com]

Note: I'm not against big business, provided they play fair. Unfortunately, my experience has been that large corporations tend to use their size advantages in ways that make it difficult for smaller (and in many cases more innovative) business to compete. It's up to the small guy to fight back (in a fair way :).

Re:Not blackmail

[The Hobo]

What you said is fine, but to be blunt excusing behaviour because others do it when it isn't right isn't right in the first place.

Re:Not blackmail

[fymidos]

Al Capone was not the "only one person in the entire universe" to do criminal stuff. Actually in his days a *LOT* of people did it. This doesn't make it right and whoever pulls stuff like that deserves to be punished.

>Stop putting all evil on Bill's shoulders.

Oh, come on, he personally travels around, threatening people, and this should not be on his shoulders, because ... ?!?!?

Not so tough as you think

[Oestergaard]

You see, sw patents are only a problem when you are starting up new business - if you are IBM (or Microsoft to some extent) already, then they are useful.

My point here being, that software patents are only 'stifling' if you intend to start up new business.

And you are only likely to realize this, if you realize that starting up new businesses is important for an economy to grow.

Back in the late '90s our government found out that Denmark should be a country of innovation, a high-tech economy so to speak - we cannot compete with china on industrial production costs anyway. So, in order to "boost" research they shut down the only government super computing center we had, sending researchers elsewhere to go beg for computing power.

To further strenghten our position as a nation of researchers and scientists, we have one of the most expensive but crappiest primary school systems in the western world - which is one thing, but the fact that anyone refuses to do anything about it underlines how important it is to the government to really position our country with a high-tech economy. Or not...

Copyright law was changed last year, to make it illegal to use or develop debuggers and disassemblers. I wrote to the minister in change of that decision letting him know that I and anyone else developing software would be breaking that law. Got some bullshit answer back which didn't address the problem, so now I'm practicing my right to "civil disobedience" every day on the job, along with everyone else in the software business in this country...

800 jobs is money right here right now. "Stifling" is in the eye of the beholder. For a government which is determined to break any initiative or start-up business, either indirectly thru neglect or directly thru law, it seems like it is not such a tough decision to make.

Oh, and add a photo opportunity with Bill and it's a done deal.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[kamasutra]

You mean the ones Gates created and sustains of his own free will?

Navision was a successful company bought by Microsoft (last year if my memory serves me right, but could be wrong about that). Gates (and Microsoft) hasn't created it and even less sustained it. Their own work did that.

You mean the ones Gates himself employs?

Yes. As so many have already explained, this is a disgusting threat because where software is produced doesn't have any correlation to legal protection it has in market in which it sells.

Re:An argument that Gates actually committed a cri

[cosinezero]

Read the whole act here: http://www.stolaf.edu/people/becker/antitrust/stat utes/sherman.html You are allowed to restrain trade with a country, you just can't monopolize it. (see section 2) You completely misunderstood the source, and the concept of anti-trust law. Nothing in anti-trust law says you can't STOP doing business in a country.

Re:Danish Government has Tough Decision

[mr3038]

Loss of 800 jobs is immediate, obvious and can lose them votes.

Just make sure that public understands that the choice to lose those jobs is done by Microsoft. I assume that the company was doing pretty fine until Microsoft bought it and if Microsoft is now threatening to fire those people, it's their choice.

We have had a couple of similar situations in Finland where large companies asked for lower taxes or "they would be forced to fire people". Okay, they got the lower taxes and now they are firing people to increase profits. As a result, I don't trust local for-profit entities a little bit.

Re:Not blackmail

[jedidiah]

It's not and any of those tactics are equally reprehensible.

What made you think that any of us would consider any such other shenanigans acceptable either?

Just an idea

[steveoc]

Just an idea for how the Danish Govt might choose to react to this 'threat'

1) Cancel all govt microsoft contracts, convert everything to FOSS.

2) Use the money saved to employ the 800 laid of developers. Start a govt funded company to support FOSS development and porting to Danish local requirements.

3) Make use of the new govt funded company to support the new all-FOSS govt infrastructure

4) Let the new company grow into a commercially viable unit in it's own right, and generate income into Denmark from providing services to other EU states for FOSS migration.

Nett effect - saves a load of money leaving the country (MS Taxes), creates long term local employment, generates incoming coming into the country.

Too easy. They should call his bluff I reckon.

Re:Not so tough as you think

[NoOneInParticular]

If you want true civil disobedience, instead of "civil disobedience", you might want to notify the police yourself everytime you open up a debugger to do your job and insist they arrest either you for breaking the law, or your employer for making you break the law ;)

Re:Not blackmail

[Zhe Mappel]

If at least you would have read the article, you would have seen that Microsoft is not the only one company in the entire universe to do this. So no, is does not show how low Microsoft can go, it just shows how low any company can go.

Your Honor, my client stands accused of cutting deals to harm his neighbor, bribing the investigating officer, strong-arming witnesses, and launching "initiatives" in which he vows to indulge in more of the same.

Far from reflecting personally upon my client, these charges merely show how low any human being can go!

Stop putting all evil on Bill's shoulders.

Furthermore, my client is tired of these accusations, which have been repeated on a regular basis for over a decade. Hasn't my client suffered enough?

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[nacturation]

The corporation doesn't have a natural right to make a profit, nor use the roads that taxpayers pay for...

Hm... I don't recall ever seeing a corporation driving down the road. But hey, at least the person driving that truck gets paid by a corporation, is able to make a profit from the work, and pays the taxes on that profit which is used in part to fund the road on which he drives.

But interesting argument you've got there. I suppose you (and the mods, apparently) consider it insightful to state that a non-human entity doesn't have human rights?

Re:Why was it software patents were bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Allowing patents on software means allowing patents on ideas.

When software is only protected by copyright, you know you can publish your work if you did not copy it from someone else. When software is protected by patents, you can write code that infringe a patent without even knowing.

Big corporations exchange patent licenses and carry on selling software normally. Smaller companies or individuals that have no patent portofolio can be attacked at any time because they infringe a patent they did not knew about.

Patents were designed to protect small companies and individual investisement so that they can live. Software patents help big companies to kill them

Re:Gates is full of it

[DavidTC]

No. All patents are supposed to be implimentable from the patent information by itself. Patents are not secret...if you patent something, everyone is supposed to know how to do it, they're just supposed to be unable to do it.

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[account_deleted]

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except that..

[bmajik]

Navision historically has sold its wares in europe. So patent/copyright laws in europe are very much relevant in europe.

Also, the denmark office was an aquisition which afaik is a separate company, Microsoft Business Solutions, that may be incorporated separately in Denmark for historical reasons.

let's be clear - I definitely think gates is saying something along the lines of "if you're not going to make an effort to protect software, i wont make an effort to continue investing in your economy". That seems like a reasonable thing to say, doesn't it ?

Re:I do know

[ergo98]

My god. I apologize for my borderline-illiterate response. Here's the corrected version.

"Of course there are differences morally, and anyone who thinks that I am defending Mr. Gates is blinded by their own bias. I'm simply stating that Mr. Gates is fully within his rights to use the leverages he has available to try to get what he wants, morality having nothing to do with it. The government is fully within their rights to tell him to go F himself (and conversely to publicize it, as they have, to use THEIR leverage against Microsoft)."

Re:Not blackmail

[duffahtolla]

No... what is being said that if you make more noise about Microsoft doing this than any other company that does this exact thing, then you are a hypocrit.

Whether we like it or not, Microsoft is a big part of everybodys life, especially slashdotters. When it does something nasty, or something nice, it will naturally be more in the lime light than say Buonjorno.

This is not being hypocritical, it's being human.

Hypocritical would be saying that its bad for Microsoft to do it, but not bad for Apple to do it. The amount of attention given doesn't matter.

Billy Gates Stomping feet

[kurt555gs]

If you don't play my way, i'll take my marbles and go home

Greed!

The man is sick.

Re:Not blackmail

[rspress]

Actually since this is Microsofts SOP Bill is open to getting all the evil put on his head.

If, as microsoft claims, their product is the best and most cost effective then why do they need to pressure politicians, smear the competition, etc.

Standard Oil did exactly the same thing and they got a lot more bad press. Getty was cosidered truly evil was displayed that way in the press. Gates and Balmer are doing the same thing and are pretty much getting a free ride.

Re:The prime minister denies blackmail claims

[Anonymous Coward]

oh yeah... and what else could he say

Yes, that basterd has tried and we have no option than follow his wishes ? (he looses his face)

Yes, that bastard has tried and we will roast him ? (he must wote against the directive)

No thats a lie... (now everything is OK, and he is doing what politicians do best... lying)

Which one would you pick ???

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[Anonymous Coward]

The point you're making doesn't apply. You're right; those 800 people shouldn't have control over his finances. But that's not what's going on. There's no way Bill Gates is going to abandon Europe as a market. The income, both actual and potential, is far too enormous. Whether or not software patents end up existing in the EU, it'll be a market for Microsoft.

The way the law goes won't significantly affect their actions. He didn't say he'd CLOSE the company; he said he'd fire its current employees and do their function with different people in a different country. What he's saying is, if the law doesn't fall the way he wants, instead of pulling out of Europe, he'll continue to sell stuff but punish those 800 people and then blame it on the Danish government.

It's not 800 people playing around with Bill Gates' finances; it's Bill Gates playing around with EU finances and laws.

Re:Not blackmail

[superpulpsicle]

In godfather the movie series they specifically not use the word MAFIA.

In M$ they specifically not use the word SATANIC.

Re:An argument that Gates actually committed a cri

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem here is that Microsoft is a monopoly with extreme influence. Different rules are needed for such an entity than a mom and pop operation.

How can we "invest" in Poland and Denmark?

[lkcl]

How can we repay the Polish and Danish governments - in _real_ terms - involving patent-free software?

ideas, anyone?

Re:"especially" != "specifically"

[jadavis]

English is a powerful language and the nuances and connotations matter. If you ignore them, you may be technically correct according to the dictionary, but you have failed to effectively communicate.

"Especially" is used to give you hints about the connotation. In this case, the connotation of blackmail is that you are threatening to reveal something.

Let's play a game

[Catbeller]

In response to the "so what?" posts, let's play a game:

Suppose I, catbeller, in my civilian life, told a representative of Microsoft that I would personally unemploy, say, his family members by making a couple of phone calls, barring his cooperation in paying me a few million dollars, and signing a few contracts granting me much power.

How long until the armored black farmboys smash my door down with a ram? How long would I be in FMITA prison?

But Microsoft can do it. And no one is responsible. The corporation has civil rights as an individual, but has no civil obligations. Even if a crime is somehow proven, no one goes to jail, not for theft of billions, Enron style, or death of thousands, Dupont/Bhopal style.

All power and priviledge, no responsibilty for its own actions. The very thing that makes conservatives quiver: no consequences for individuals for their own actions. Fake corporate "persons" front for real people committing real crimes. The current setup is organized crime.

I've come to the conclusion that corporate personhood is a concept that has to be eliminated. People should answer for their crimes. If Bill made the decision to extort the Danes, then he should have to answer for it at a trial after extradition from the U.S. But in the real world...

Re:Not blackmail

[Anonymous Coward]

And while they're at it give -1 wrong. There are plenty of posts that (probably) aren't trolls or flamebait but should be modded away anyway.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[born_to_live_forever]

All right, this is where I step in...

Just to get the preliminaries out of the way: I am a Dane and an historian. That means that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, you should assume that I know what I'm talking about here.

Now, the parent of this thread presents several hypothetical ideas regarding this (although they look more like assertions, given the tone of the post):

1) One would expect Microsoft's ploy to "blow up in their faces".

2) The Danish PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen could respond by adopting non-MS software in government departments, as a retaliatory measure.

3) Anders Fogh Rasmussen might conceivably do so.

4) "Danes are not noted for caving in to agressive ultimatums".

Those are the points I'm going to address.

Short version:

No. Never in a million years. Forget it. End of story.

Long version:

The flights of fancy presented above represent a glorious mix of misinformed wishful thinking. While I suppose I ought to be quite flattered by the picture they paint of Danes, the fact is that they are, historically and contemporarily/politically, simply untrue.

Let me respond to each of these points individually:

1) One would expect Microsoft's ploy to "blow up in their faces".

Why? When has Microsoft (or any other major corporation) ever suffered a serious and permanent backlash from using strong-arm tactics? Small setbacks, yes - but what reason would Bill Gates have for believing that such an outcome is in any way likely?

2) The Danish PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen could respond by adopting non-MS software in government departments, as a retaliatory measure.

No. The Danish PM doesn't have that sort of comprehensive influence over government purchasing policies. Certainly, he could push for legislation in such matters, and instruct his cabinet to push for adoption of non-MS solutions within their ministries, but even if he were likely to do so (which he isn't, see point 3) the time frame for a switch-over would be long. The wheels of bureaucracy grind slowly.

3) Anders Fogh Rasmussen might conceivably do so.

No, he wouldn't. In fact, I don't hesitate to use the word "inconceivable" in that context. Rasmussen is a liberal-right ("liberal" in the Danish context meaning "laissez-faire capitalist") politician, and his entire political career is built on the conviction that free market forces and less government are the panaceas whereby all economic and social evils will be eradicated. In fact, I think he actually believes that. For ideological reasons alone, it is highly improbable that he would do so.

Leaving aside the ideology, Fogh Rasmussen would be a pretty irresponsible public official if he chose the path of outright confrontation. Such a move could (and would) be interpreted by the U.S. as a form of protectionism, and become the opening move in a trade war. No responsible PM would involve his country in such a situation. He'd be more likely to knuckle under.

4) "Danes are not noted for caving in to agressive ultimatums".

It pains me to say this, but this is relatively untrue. Although Denmark has sometimes resisted ultimatums (such as the British demand that Denmark surrender her navy in 1801), the fact is that any confrontation has eventually led to the Danes capitulating and giving the foe what he wanted. We didn't invent the term "appeasement", but by damn, we live it.

The parent post cites the Danish evacuation of the Jews in 1943 as an example of Danish refusal to cave in - but the evacuation was largely carried out by private individuals. The government was not involved in any significant degree. In fact, when Denmark was invaded in 1940, the government rapidly chose to capitulate and enter into a policy of cooperation with the Nazis. Honestly, the only reason Denmark was not treated as a collaborator nation after t

Re:Not blackmail

[Hasai]

Okay; let's extrapolate a bit some of the elements of your submission.

First thing to be noted is the innate bigotry of your statement: Any company will stoop to blackmail. How is this different from other sweeping, absolutist statements that claim, for example, all politicians are corrupt, all police are sadistic brutes, or all (ethnic group) are (place favorite slur here)?

Second, there is the implication that since 'any company' supposedly will blackmail, then it's somehow less despicable for Microsoft to do so. IMO, this reasoning is just as ridiculous as mine would be if I claimed that since Joseph Stalin butchered millions of his own countrymen with no consequences, it's therefore perfectly acceptable for me to take an automatic weapon over to the local mall and have a good-old time.

Lastly, as to 'putting all evil on Bill's shoulders,' last I checked, Bill's hand is still one of those on Microsoft's tiller. Have you ever heard the phrase The Buck Stops Here? He has the power to govern Microsoft's behavior, and therefore has responsibility for it.

'Nuff said.